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SoothingWhaleSongEU

I was very excited to see "HMS Tiger"...

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... but then saw it was a neutered interpretation of the 1959 Missile cruiser (Edit: just wrong about this) rather than the 1913 Battlecruiser.

Still nice to see another Royal Navy Premium cruiser that only uses AP like the tech tree line and another new premium actually built in steel, and many players have been asking for both of these.

Oh well, maybe next time we'll have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Tiger_(1913) and Drachinifel's video on HMS Tiger (1913)

What tier would you expect a 1913 battlecruiser with 8 343mm guns?

I'm leaning towards 4 given timeline wise, she seems to fit between many of the 1912 Tier 4 battleships and the 1914/1915 356mm tier 5 battleships.

 

Likewise would you be interested in a UK & German battlecruiser tech tree bulge? 

I.e one that splits off but doesn't go all the way to tier 10 (much as the IJN DDs had before Kita' and Hara; were finally added.

Or are you uninterested in any line that doesn't cap at tier 10?

And would you prefer they were just premiums? (as much as WG ever adds lower tier, WW1 premiums to the game these days)

Edited by SoothingWhaleSongEU
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22 minutes ago, SoothingWhaleSongEU said:

What tier would you expect a 1913 battlecruiser with 8 343mm guns?

Most likely tier 5 since Renown would be 6

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42 minutes ago, SoothingWhaleSongEU said:

a neutered interpretation of the 1959 Missile cruiser

Tiger '59 was never a missile cruiser. What you see is what she historically was (although WG needs to add the 3" guns back in as functioning AA). The British projected a lot of guided missile ships in the immediate post-war period, but apart from the County-class destroyers and their subsequent Cold War successors, none ever came to fruition. 

She was, on the other hand, converted to a helicopter cruiser late in her career - for which she lost her aft main and lateral 3" AA turrets. She might have been retrofitted for Sea Cat, but that's a bolt-on point defence system, not an integral area-defence system like Seaslug or the US 3T program. 

Edited by Ensign_Cthulhu
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1 hour ago, SoothingWhaleSongEU said:

... but then saw it was a neutered interpretation of the 1959 Missile cruiser (Edit: just wrong about this) rather than the 1913 Battlecruiser.

Still nice to see another Royal Navy Premium cruiser that only uses AP like the tech tree line and another new premium actually built in steel, and many players have been asking for both of these.

Oh well, maybe next time we'll have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Tiger_(1913) and Drachinifel's video on HMS Tiger (1913)

What tier would you expect a 1913 battlecruiser with 8 343mm guns?

I'm leaning towards 4 given timeline wise, she seems to fit between many of the 1912 Tier 4 battleships and the 1914/1915 356mm tier 5 battleships.

 

Likewise would you be interested in a UK & German battlecruiser tech tree bulge? 

I.e one that splits off but doesn't go all the way to tier 10 (much as the IJN DDs had before Kita' and Hara; were finally added.

Or are you uninterested in any line that doesn't cap at tier 10?

And would you prefer they were just premiums? (as much as WG ever adds lower tier, WW1 premiums to the game these days)

This Tiger would probably eat the 1913 version in 1 smoke charge. Looks like it's getting 2 Minotaur turrets. Granted only 4 guns but a sub-4 or 3 second reload With 6 inch guns against T6 and T7 is still formidable. Definitely challenged when uptiered.

Let us not forget, the skill rework is more about inducing premium ship sales than anything else.

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50 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Tiger '59 was never a missile cruiser. What you see is what she historically was (although WG needs to add the 3" guns back in as functioning AA). The British projected a lot of guided missile ships in the immediate post-war period, but apart from the County-class destroyers and their subsequent Cold War successors, none ever came to fruition. 

She was, on the other hand, converted to a helicopter cruiser late in her career - for which she lost her aft main and lateral 3" AA turrets. She might have been retrofitted for Sea Cat, but that's a bolt-on point defence system, not an integral area-defence system like Seaslug or the US 3T program. 

Good point, serves me right from jumping to conclusions and it was technically laid down in WW2, even if it took 18 years to actually be commissioned.

I should perhaps be a tad more positive about having both a historical ship and a Premium that suits a dedicated AP only. Light Cruiser UK captain merely 5 years after the line was released!

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34 minutes ago, Wye_So_Serious said:

Let us not forget, the skill rework is more about inducing premium ship sales than anything else.

Not with the number currently available for coal, it isn't. 

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2 hours ago, SoothingWhaleSongEU said:

What tier would you expect a 1913 battlecruiser with 8 343mm guns?

Easy answer, T5. She's very similar in capability to her cousins of the Kongo class, at least as-built and the only thing that ever made the old as-built hull for Kongo a pain to play at T5 was the comically reduced main gun range that plagued both her and Fuso's old stock hull. If it wasn't for the range handicap, the only real disadvantage they had was lack of AA, which was painful at the time, but manageable if you played smart (and this was in the time of the RTS CV monsters, not the weak 'action' CVs we have now). I see Tiger slotting in very nicely at T5 alongside her IJN cousin.

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2 hours ago, SoothingWhaleSongEU said:

... but then saw it was a neutered interpretation of the 1959 Missile cruiser (Edit: just wrong about this) rather than the 1913 Battlecruiser.

Still nice to see another Royal Navy Premium cruiser that only uses AP like the tech tree line and another new premium actually built in steel, and many players have been asking for both of these.

Oh well, maybe next time we'll have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Tiger_(1913) and Drachinifel's video on HMS Tiger (1913)

What tier would you expect a 1913 battlecruiser with 8 343mm guns?

I'm leaning towards 4 given timeline wise, she seems to fit between many of the 1912 Tier 4 battleships and the 1914/1915 356mm tier 5 battleships.

 

Likewise would you be interested in a UK & German battlecruiser tech tree bulge? 

I.e one that splits off but doesn't go all the way to tier 10 (much as the IJN DDs had before Kita' and Hara; were finally added.

Or are you uninterested in any line that doesn't cap at tier 10?

And would you prefer they were just premiums? (as much as WG ever adds lower tier, WW1 premiums to the game these days)

Heck Yes! It's about time ALL the Battlecruisers were put into the game!

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2 hours ago, Karstodes said:

Most likely tier 5 since Renown would be 6

The Kongos were basically improved versions of the Lion class and they are T5 even in full WWII modernization. Tiger was also an improved Lion, but not by much. Guns are smaller than Kongo's, belt armor is a smidge better but still too thin to matter against even mid-tier BBs and it never really got serious upgrades because it was scrapped. It is basically in WWI trim having been in reserve since the  early1920s . Unless they give it an Eitel Friedrich-style fictional upgrade there is no way it is T6. In the state it actually existed it is a T4.  Honestly Renown is difficult to see at T6. It is pretty much an analogue to Kongo at T5. It's a WWII-modernized BC. The difference is it trades 8x14" guns for 6x 15". 

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38 minutes ago, GSXstage1 said:

Heck Yes! It's about time ALL the Battlecruisers were put into the game!

Lots of us would love to see that, but the Almighty Sub_Genius handles this the same way as OPS... says "Not enough interest" when what he really means is "Not enough profits."

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Tiger (C20) is interesting though I think too many people have been overawed by the Minotaur turrets, while just two of them gives you 75 RPM, vs. 96 RPM of Fiji/Edinburgh. That said she is historic, was built, does give the RN a CL premium that fires the same ammunition as the main line - fourth time's the charm!

 

I'm very much in favor of battlecruiser branches for the Germans and British. I think Tiger will do fine at T5 with a fictional rebuild, and Renown will do generally fine at T6.

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46 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

In the state it actually existed it is a T4. 

I'm not altogether sure WG would like to put 33% more firepower than the Myogi at the same tier. I think we'd be highly likely to see an Iron Duke-style fictionalized refit, as if she'd never had to be scrapped, giving her adequate AA for Tier 5.

47 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

Honestly Renown is difficult to see at T6. It is pretty much an analogue to Kongo at T5. It's a WWII-modernized BC.

Put Renown at Tier 5 and you expose Tier 4 ships to 15 inch guns. That might be a bridge too far. Her final AA and secondary suite is probably good for Tier 6, although her armour would be terrifyingly thin. 

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33 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

The Kongos were basically improved versions of the Lion class and they are T5 even in full WWII modernization. Tiger was also an improved Lion, but not by much. Guns are smaller than Kongo's, belt armor is a smidge better but still too thin to matter against even mid-tier BBs and it never really got serious upgrades because it was scrapped. It is basically in WWI trim having been in reserve since the  early1920s . Unless they give it an Eitel Friedrich-style fictional upgrade there is no way it is T6. In the state it actually existed it is a T4.  Honestly Renown is difficult to see at T6. It is pretty much an analogue to Kongo at T5. It's a WWII-modernized BC. The difference is it trades 8x14" guns for 6x 15". 

In general, Wargaming do give alternate upgraded hull for ships that did not get refit/ were not finished. Look at the Amagi/ kii for instance, or even Gneisenau. Tiger being basically the equivalent of a Kongo pre refit, making it's B hull a modernized version of it following Renown model would easily make it a tier 5, with better AA than Kongo.

 

Renown is in fact very easy to see at T6. She was better than a modernized Kongo by any standard.

Roughly the same displacement, better belt by 26mm, thicker overall belt (Kongo had slightly thicker of the magazine (152mm vs 127mm) but it was not slope and of lesser quality). It had better AA and slightly better speed. She is after all a derivative of the R class that would be tier 6 in the game.  And 6 15'' are far more impactful than 8 14'' thanks to the over match capacity of it.

 

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34 minutes ago, Karstodes said:

She is after all a derivative of the R class

Ummm... no. There's a big difference between an R-class BB (described by one author as "15 inch-gunned Iron Dukes") and the Renown/Repulse. The latter have fine hull forms designed from the ground up for high speed, and are more properly regarded as extensions of the earlier battlecruisers. 

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10 minutes ago, Karstodes said:

In general, Wargaming do give alternate upgraded hull for ships that did not get refit/ were not finished. Look at the Amagi/ kii for instance, or even Gneisenau. Tiger being basically the equivalent of a Kongo pre refit, making it's B hull a modernized version of it following Renown model would easily make it a tier 5, with better AA than Kongo.

 

Renown is in fact very easy to see at T6. She was better than a modernized Kongo by any standard.

Roughly the same displacement, better belt by 26mm, thicker overall belt (Kongo had slightly thicker of the magazine (152mm vs 127mm) but it was not slope and of lesser quality). It had better AA and slightly better speed. She is after all a derivative of the R class that would be tier 6 in the game.  And 6 15'' are far more impactful than 8 14'' thanks to the over match capacity of it.

 

I agree. The question is definitely whether they would do Tiger as she was or as she could have been. The tend to render historical premiums as they historically were, but Eitel Friedrich is a great example of one with completely fictional upgrades. They definitely could do Tiger at T5 with upgrades. SHe's equivalent to Kongo at that point. 

I absolutely think they could put Renown on T6, particularly if they give her good consumables but she wouldn't be a particularly good T6 without some help. Her armor is frighteningly thin for a T6. Dunkerque has thin armor too but she can angle. The only other BC on T6 that I can think of is Izmail which has similar thin armor, but she is rocking 12 14" guns. Renown's 15" guns would give her some overmatch but that's all she really has and she only has 6 of them. Unless they give her really good Warspite dispersion she won't hit much with them and with only 6 her DPS will be quite low. She did receive some AA upgrades but she was well shy of anything that can be called "good." 

33 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I'm not altogether sure WG would like to put 33% more firepower than the Myogi at the same tier. I think we'd be highly likely to see an Iron Duke-style fictionalized refit, as if she'd never had to be scrapped, giving her adequate AA for Tier 5.

 

I don't think they would have a huge problem with it, especially since the fictional Myogi has fictional upgrades. A T4 Tiger would be stock WWI. A fictionally upgraded Tiger is definitely T5. 

37 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Put Renown at Tier 5 and you expose Tier 4 ships to 15 inch guns. That might be a bridge too far. 

True. I don't think they would particularly have a problem with that though. They've done it before with 16" guns dropping them down into T6. For most of the T4s there isn't much difference between 14" and 15". They have trouble resisting both of them. The main reason I suspect they would put a Tiger BC on T5 is that they can sell it for more though. lol. 

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2 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

Unless they give her really good Warspite dispersion she won't hit much with them and with only 6 her DPS will be quite low.

If WG gave one of those two supercruiser dispersion a'la Geo I wouldn't be surprised.

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4 hours ago, Karstodes said:

Most likely tier 5 since Renown would be 6

I'm still waiting for Renown to enter the battle about Tier 6 yes. Although You MIGHT be able to pull a Gneisenau and plop it in at tier 7 since it has 6 15in guns, although that wouldn't be ideal imo. Me personally, I'd LOVE a Tier 5 or 6 HMS Royal Sovereign.

Image result for revenge-class battleship

Such a nice little battleship! Admittedly with one gun turret less than Iron Duke, but with 15in guns!

Edited by SaiIor_Moon

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3 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

The main reason I suspect they would put a Tiger BC on T5 is that they can sell it for more though. lol. 

Not to mention it being able to do directives.

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Just now, SaiIor_Moon said:

Me personally, I'd LOVE a Tier 5 HMS Royal Sovereign.

I think she'd be a T6, since her armament is the same as that of QE and Warspite. She's just a few knots slower.

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1 minute ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I think she'd be a T6, since her armament is the same as that of QE and Warspite. She's just a few knots slower.

Yeah, I JUST edited my comment, realized the 15in guns XD Tier 6 sounds perfect for her. OR they could pull a West Virginia and nerf some other stats and put her in Tier 5, but I think she should stay in Tier 6, personally.

Edited by SaiIor_Moon

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27 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

I agree. The question is definitely whether they would do Tiger as she was or as she could have been. The tend to render historical premiums as they historically were, but Eitel Friedrich is a great example of one with completely fictional upgrades. They definitely could do Tiger at T5 with upgrades. SHe's equivalent to Kongo at that point. 

I absolutely think they could put Renown on T6, particularly if they give her good consumables but she wouldn't be a particularly good T6 without some help. Her armor is frighteningly thin for a T6. Dunkerque has thin armor too but she can angle. The only other BC on T6 that I can think of is Izmail which has similar thin armor, but she is rocking 12 14" guns. Renown's 15" guns would give her some overmatch but that's all she really has and she only has 6 of them. Unless they give her really good Warspite dispersion she won't hit much with them and with only 6 her DPS will be quite low. She did receive some AA upgrades but she was well shy of anything that can be called "good." 

I doubt Tiger or Renown will be Premium. My guess would be that Renown was out of the game for now because she is keep for the future Royal Navy BB Split, same thing for Tiger probably. And in such case, it is fairly easy to do a ''A Hull tiger'' as historical, and a B hull with the massive tower and tea facilities.

 

 

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I am new and a Lover of Naval History. I have always been drawn to the Battlecruisers that fought so hard at Jutland. Always loved the Battlecruisers from ALL nations and would love to see them in game.

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9 hours ago, SoothingWhaleSongEU said:

What tier would you expect a 1913 battlecruiser with 8 343mm guns?

I'm leaning towards 4 given timeline wise, she seems to fit between many of the 1912 Tier 4 battleships and the 1914/1915 356mm tier 5 battleships.

I'd agree, although she could probably also do T5, with a fictional Kongo-style refit.

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4 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Put Renown at Tier 5 and you expose Tier 4 ships to 15 inch guns. That might be a bridge too far. Her final AA and secondary suite is probably good for Tier 6, although her armour would be terrifyingly thin. 

Tier 4-5 battleships all have 19mm plating anyway, so they don't care if you have 12in or 15in guns. At tier 5 a Kongo and Renown both overmatch each other, so Renown gets little benefit from 15in guns, but has only 3/4 the barrels.

Renown's armor scheme (229mm belt, >2in deck, some distributed) is ok in comparison to ships like Dunkerque (225mm belt) and Kongo (203mm belt).

6 hours ago, Tzarevitch said:

A T4 Tiger would be stock WWI. A fictionally upgraded Tiger is definitely T5. 

Exactly my assessment too.

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I got excited at seeing HMS Tiger and thought "battlecruiser" as well.

However, notice the ship is HMS Tiger 59, that leaves the door open for HMS Tiger the battlecruiser...

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