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Skuggsja

IJN Cruisers: Do They Need Some Attention?

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Playing this game has turned me into an IJN fanboy. While not a weeb, I do really enjoy the history of these ships and playstyle. 

However, as time has passed, I feel power creep has really shown its face when it comes to the IJN cruisers.

While they can still perform overall, they generally feel lacking in anything special and many of them are the lower end of 50% range of winrates compared to same tier counterparts. 

The torpedoes and the HE are the two prominent features in these ships. Perhaps, to a degree, the low detection of these ships can be considered a unique feature but it's sort of offset by the low range. While these features are still useful, they arent as useful compared to their contemporaries, as they once were.

 

1. German cruiser HE has qaurter pen with faster reload. The armor is slightly better as well.

2. French cruisers have speed boost and main battery reload booster with really good ranges. I feel setting fires after the use of a DCP is far easier compared to IJN counter parts.

3. Italians cruisers have faster reloading torps with longer range combined with engine smoke. While they dont hit as hard or fast, they feel more useful.

4.British heavy cruisers are very similar roles but have amazing repair parties. Any mistakes made in these extremely similar ships is easily forgiven compared to the IJN. Also, the low tiers are able to mount spotter planes.

While it's not so much that I think these ships need a buff, I feel like they could use something a bit more unique. Maybe some longer range torpedoes like Yoshino, but balanced per tier by speed and detectablility. I feel like the commander skills that should benefit the most torpedo oriented cruisers are far less useful than they could be.

Again, not looking for a buff, any change made should come with an offset. I really like the idea of maybe pushing out the torpedo ranges and offsetting them by making them slower or more detectable or maybe both. Right now if a mission to get torpedo hits or start fires in a cruiser came up I'd be more likely to use French, Italian, or British CAs and that doesnt feel quite right to me. (Aside from Azuma or Yoshino of course). Orginally I had hope that IJN light cruisers would appear  torpedo centric (Kitakami anyone?) but I now believe a hybrid line would be more likely.

Anyway, what do others think? Could the IJN cruisers use some love? If so, or even if not, share your thoughts. Oh and while we are here, how about a Japanese national camo and 2 special commanders!?

Edited by Skuggsja
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For me, the IJN need an increase in turret rotation speed and an increase in firing range.

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Mogami needs a range buff. Zao needs range and reload buff. All need turret buff. 

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I love IJN cruisers too.  They were one of the first lines I played.   I am up to T9 in IJN.  I think the IJN compare close to equal with the lines you mention and in some ways might be stronger.  IMHO it is the Russian CA and CL lines and the number of super cruisers at T9 and 10 that have power crept them.

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The line overall is in good shape in my opinion. Outside Mogami, which could use a range buff.
Kuma: Strong.
Furutaka: Really strong.
Aoba: Decent
Myoko: Decent
Mogami 6": No comment. Haven't used it much in years.
Mogami 8": Weak, tbh. It is ultra squishy AND low DPM for the tier. Not a great combo. The low range makes this worse.
Ibuki: Weak, but not terrible.
Zao: Decent, but definitely not a top tier X cruiser.

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7 minutes ago, AdmiralPiett said:

Mogami 6": No comment. Haven't used it much in years.
Mogami 8": Weak, tbh. It is ultra squishy AND low DPM for the tier. Not a great combo. The low range makes this worse.

155mm Mogami is quite strong and is generally considered the superior version of the ship. IMO, her relatively short range is one of the things keeping her in check. 203mm Mogami is in many ways just an inferior Atago.

1 hour ago, Skuggsja said:

The torpedoes and the HE are the two prominent features in these ships. Perhaps, to a degree, the low detection of these ships can be considered a unique feature but it's sort of offset by the low range. While these features are still useful, they arent as useful compared to their contemporaries, as they once were.

IJN 203mm guns also use the DD dispersion curve. It’s very noticeable when moving from Myoko to Mogami (155mm) and then to Ibuki.

Edited by Nevermore135

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6 minutes ago, AdmiralPiett said:

Mogami 6": No comment. Haven't used it much in years.
Mogami 8": Weak, tbh. It is ultra squishy AND low DPM for the tier. Not a great combo. The low range makes this worse.

Mogami 6in has been the better option for a while now. It was the original CL and 15 guns of IJN HE hit hard, combined with torps and stealth and it's a nasty package. The 8" version is essentially a Myoko a tier higher.

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1 hour ago, wstugamd said:

All need turret buff. 

That has nothing to do with Wargaming, since they weren't the ones who put very slow turret motors on the Junyokan Kantai. 

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 I can tell you right now: they need nothing. This is probably the single ship line that doesn't require any type of fiddling after their accuracy boost.

We can ask for faster turret rotation or better torepdoes, but you have to consider that the IJN cruisers are among the fastest in every tier, the heavies have DD dispersion (no other cruiser have that unless it is Atlanta or Smolensk) and their damage output is really consistent. Hell, among all cruisers, they have some of the best armor profiles (really good deck armor, mostly) which combined with their agility makes them hard to kill when their captain know what they are doing. 

40 minutes ago, AdmiralPiett said:

The line overall is in good shape in my opinion. Outside Mogami, which could use a range buff.
Kuma: Strong.
Furutaka: Really strong.
Aoba: Decent
Myoko: Decent
Mogami 6": No comment. Haven't used it much in years.
Mogami 8": Weak, tbh. It is ultra squishy AND low DPM for the tier. Not a great combo. The low range makes this worse.
Ibuki: Weak, but not terrible.
Zao: Decent, but definitely not a top tier X cruiser.

Mogami 6" is the best ship on the line. Using the 8" is not really a good alternative, unless you want consistency.

Edited by hanesco

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3 hours ago, MollyGodiva said:

The torpedo angles are just stupid. I got to T6 and just gave up.

You must walk the path of "run & torp while kiting" (after the Kuma) for the torps are designed for torping behind themselves while kiting...they have good angles for that...but not good for charges...unless you charge forward while undetected & kite away at 1st contact...perfect time to send some fishies behind you...but watch for your DDs screening for you)...

It's an annoying path...but that path is only 2 more intolerable ships & then 1 of the funnest TT ship in the game awaits you...w/double racks of 4 torps on each side (no more bad torp angles...in fact very usable & very effective torps) & some of the most hilarious turrets in the game (prepare to be blasted for enjoying what a true HE spammer is meant to be)...

15 barrels of every loving HE spamming madness (9 up front & 6 in he back) w/a 10 second reload (best staggered in 5 second 1/2 volleys between front & rear turrets as you maneuver around...to give you a virtual 5 second reload on an average 7.5 barrels)...aka a DD's worst nightmare (& nothing else you concentrate on is gonna be very pleased w/you either)...& that's before Adrenalin Rush gets charged (sometimes you just wanna hug the BB for the double cit...because that's when the fun begins). & that's w/IFHE...because the biggest winner in the whole IFHE rework was the 155s on Mogami...because even w/IFHE your gonna set some fires w/15 barrels every volley at 5 second 1/2 volley intervals...& even when you don't your still gonna rip stuff to pieces (& your CV is gonna thank you for all the AA you'll be stripping).

& don't be afraid to switch to AP when any cruiser (even a T10) gives you an up close broadside...

4 hours ago, AdmiralPiett said:

The line overall is in good shape in my opinion. Outside Mogami, which could use a range buff. (If it had to rely on the 203s to try for cit hits I'd say it could use that buff...but when spamming HE...even at max range where it lights many fires & gets lots of hits on targets that don't need to be broadside just because if the sheet number of shells in the air [cant dodge them all]...it would really be insane OP if they did...

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!)

Mogami 6": No comment. Haven't used it much in years.
Mogami 8": Weak, tbh. It is ultra squishy AND low DPM for the tier. Not a great combo. The low range makes this worse.

You really don't want to waste any credits on the gun "upgrade" (really...they called that an upgrade...#snicker) on the Mogami. Research it of course just to get the elite status...but don't buy those things when you have the far superior option (90 155s a minute compared to 40 203s)

I've dev struck a full life DM & Moskva w/6 (out of the 9 front) followed by 4 (out of the 6 rear) cits from a single volley as they came around the wrong island too close before (2 seperated instances of course...but both on Mountain Range map)...didn't even need to send the fish I was planning on using...

But that was very up close on undetected ambushes...not the norm...but 15-155s are just as effective as 10-203s when close up...but when at a distance...just fire 'em up baby.

 

 

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I think some things about the line do need to be buffed. Like almost all the ships need better torp angles, not asking for furutaka/atago angles but some of them are absurdly narrow (this includes the low tier premiums). The range on mogami, ibuki, zao should be increased by 1-2km. Also I think the turret angles on zao and maybe ibuki should be improved. Zao HP also needs to be buffed.

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9 hours ago, black_hull4 said:

That has nothing to do with Wargaming, since they weren't the ones who put very slow turret motors on the Junyokan Kantai.

Except as has become obvious over the years, WG is only rarely constrained by reality on the newer lines. Which makes it tough for ships that are under such constraints to compete. Did the real French ships have an afterburner? Did any Italian ships have forward projecting smoke? WG can (and does) adjust any values it wants.

Edited by Sabot_100

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1 hour ago, Sabot_100 said:

Did the real French ships have an afterburner?

Sort of, French turbines were capable of ridiculously high speeds for short periods of time(usually about an hour). This is represented by an Engine Boost in-game, though of course the time has to be proportional to the match. Also, running for about 2 minutes is more  realistic than an hour, since the longer you go the higher the chance of you breaking the engine. :fish_boom:

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2 hours ago, black_hull4 said:

Sort of, French turbines were capable of ridiculously high speeds for short periods of time(usually about an hour). This is represented by an Engine Boost in-game, though of course the time has to be proportional to the match. Also, running for about 2 minutes is more  realistic than an hour, since the longer you go the higher the chance of you breaking the engine.

Of course in game their speed is based on maximum trials speed which would have done using the overloaded turbines. The speed boost comes on top of that. Fantasque made 45kts IRL on trials (no idea how long it could keep that up). Speed boost makes it 52kts. I think Shimakaze made 42kts on trials but gets 39kts in game. The trials may have been rigged (who needs ammo or full fuel tanks for example) but most nations did that.

Not that I am asking for the French to be nerfed (alas poor Henri, I knew her well), just agreeing with the OP that maybe the original IJN (and US) ships may need revisited.

 

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On 2/12/2021 at 12:04 AM, black_hull4 said:

That has nothing to do with Wargaming, since they weren't the ones who put very slow turret motors on the Junyokan Kantai. 

Arcade game

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I do have the agree, my largest complaint about the line at this point is the gun range is disappointing (at least if you don't set the ships up with a recon plane to compensate). 15.7/15.8 km guns at T8? You may as well make me just a nice juicy target the moment I fire my guns, because everyone is going to start turning their guns at me because most other cruisers have a couple KM's on me in terms of range in comparison at that tier. Heck, Budyonny at T6 has an extra KM of gun range on me in a T8, which is downright ridiculous to think about.

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IMO, their AA defense is too weak (except for co-op) even with an AA build.  In matches without a carrier, they perform very well, thank you very much. :cap_rambo:

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I do believe the IJN Cruisers requires some adjustments, at least to bring them on pair with the newer Cruiser Lines.

They are suppose to be sort of jack of all trades, and yet other Lines get similar or better perks without losing their "Gimmicks". I do not think IJN requires a gimmick, but just a revision. I do like their consistency, but more often than not, IJN is simply a bad choice when it comes to any competitive environment because there are better options that bring the same (or almost the same) and bring more utility to the team.

If someone is going to look at my stats and simply dismiss me, please I would appreciate advice in that case. Overall, to me, IJN Cruisers feel like "I cannot carry, I tried". Some games I feel extremely discouraged to play them. And do not get me started on Azuma.

For argument sake comparing Zao to their counterparts, I would suggest the following areas to be looked at:
- HP Pool
- Turret Angles and Rotation
- Artillery Range and Reload
- AA Defense
- Team Utility

Edited by Ekkaroe

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I think I you could get away with no attention considering how stealthy they are and how that will always have a place.

 

I mean you could buff AA but that wouldn’t make sense as those 25mm just weren’t as good as the competition. Buffing turret rotation would hardly have an impact, considering you are already so accurate that currently negating the slow traverse has little consequence.

 

Maybe a nudge in stealth or reload would suffice, perhaps a bump in HP, nothing huge.

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In addition to what I said above I think all the ships that can mount a fighter should also be able to mount a spotter.

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At the very least reverse the HP nerf to Zao that she got due to being so good at the now removed open water stealth firing.

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I have started and have played the most in IJN cruisers. The line is stuck with a T7 ship till TX and then it gets some really nonsensical torpedo angles. I really like the Zao, I also remember invisifingering(LOL)which was a tad OP. Used to have a really nice concealment margin when compared with rest of ingame ships but since then several ships that can either counter or outspot the Zao have been introduced.

For ts particular case I would suggest rear biased torpedo arcs and Atago speed and turning circle(this extra agility would mitigate its weak AA while retaining a degree of weakness). I mean we could have a ship that is super efective when you are really being an active and thinking player and if you dont you'll get blapped as it will not be just a point and click ship.

The other ship that needs some love in TX CA range is the Desmoines, a ship that is no longer a threat as it used to.

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I do think they could use some attention, maybe some quality of life buffs, like 2KM more range on the torps, and some turret traverse speed would go a long way.

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11 hours ago, ZinAethor said:

I do think they could use some attention, maybe some quality of life buffs, like 2KM more range on the torps, and some turret traverse speed would go a long way.

well, i would not lie the turret traverse speed(don't get me wrong here) as it would step into other cruisers flavor or play style. I think it needs buffs, but in the IJN fashion.

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