Ahskance Reacts: The Mighty Jingles - Solo Warrior CV

[Ahskance]

Much love to The Mighty Jingles!  Have enjoyed many a video from him, and will continue to do so~

His recent video made some waves, so folks inevitably want some context.  So we're going to do a little breakdown/walk-a-long during the little Solo Warrior CV intro he had.

Nothing crazy, but still worth sharing I think.

Note: Language Warning - I doth do swears~

 

[iDuckman]

1 hour ago, Ahskance said:

worth sharing I think.

Is that a YT video link above?

For some reason all I see is a big blank space.  It's been happening for several days now.  Post the raw link?

 

[Pugilistic]

Chronic tone deafness about balance right here folks. 

[Ahskance]

42 minutes ago, iDuckman said:

Is that a YT video link above?

For some reason all I see is a big blank space.  It's been happening for several days now.  Post the raw link?

https://youtu.be/tHvn-_5SGqM

This is the raw link.  If YouTube isn't cooperating, I'll include a twitch link

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/908098904

 

[Shannon_Lindsey]

This is exactly why I don't follow Jingles anymore. He joined the echo chamber, and all of the conclusions are wrong. The CV got a solo warrior because the ships made bad decisions. The CV wasn't overpowered. The Green ships got a classic case of CV tunnel vision and proceeded to make all the worst possible plays against a CV you can make, thus throwing the game. It's not so much that the CV was great or deserved to win, but that the four green players deserved to lose.

[Torenico]

Oh no, did Jingles just joined the "cv bad" crowd?!

[SkaerKrow]

30 minutes ago, Torenico said:

Oh no, did Jingles just joined the "cv bad" crowd?!

He did last year, when he became a banner bearer of the "delete CV" ideology. That's when I unfollowed his channel and discounted his value as a community contributor. Time has done much to vindicate my decision to do so.

[kill_all_planes]

58 minutes ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

This is exactly why I don't follow Jingles anymore. He joined the echo chamber, and all of the conclusions are wrong. The CV got a solo warrior because the ships made bad decisions. The CV wasn't overpowered. The Green ships got a classic case of CV tunnel vision and proceeded to make all the worst possible plays against a CV you can make, thus throwing the game. It's not so much that the CV was great or deserved to win, but that the four green players deserved to lose.

The CV would have hunted and killed them anyway. What are they supposed to do? Run off and try to hide? That's laughable at best, there is no scenario where the CV doesn't just win that situation unless he goes AFK.

Its a classic example of the CV getting to attack continuously while not risking a damn thing, its disgusting. Anyone who doesn't see the issue with that has their eyes painted on. 

ANY other surface ship in a 1 vs 4 is losing that fight 99 time out of 100.

[Shannon_Lindsey]

8 minutes ago, kill_all_planes said:

The CV would have hunted and killed them anyway. What are they supposed to do? Run off and try to hide? That's laughable at best, there is no scenario where the CV doesn't just win that situation unless he goes AFK.

Its a classic example of the CV getting to attack continuously while not risking a damn thing, its disgusting. Anyone who doesn't see the issue with that has their eyes painted on. 

ANY other surface ship in a 1 vs 4 is losing that fight 99 time out of 100.

Everything you just said is wrong. The CV didn't have enough time left to win it unless they all sailed right at him. Planes are fast, but not that fast.

[Kevik70]

57 minutes ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

This is exactly why I don't follow Jingles anymore. He joined the echo chamber, and all of the conclusions are wrong. The CV got a solo warrior because the ships made bad decisions. The CV wasn't overpowered. The Green ships got a classic case of CV tunnel vision and proceeded to make all the worst possible plays against a CV you can make, thus throwing the game. It's not so much that the CV was great or deserved to win, but that the four green players deserved to lose.

Not entirely true, actually not true much of all. Watching the vid, the CV only had to kill 2 of those three ships to win the game on points. Yugumo was a dead man sailing as soon as the CV spotted him, and both cruiser were majorly damaged and would have made rather easy pickings even if they'd tried running of the map.

It would have been much harder to get a win in this sort of situation under the old system. Most CV players by this point under the old system would have been running out of planes by this point of the game. AA builds and AA in general was far more punishing back in the day and CV fighters where a much greater danger to opposing CV planes. Both of these factors most likely would have meant that the Solo Warrior CV would not have full squadrons 16 minutes into the game and even if he did the allied CV could have provide much better protection with his own fighters. (If he had any left by that point) In addition, Defensive fire consumable (if the cruisers were running it) could have mitigated alot of the damage taken by absolutely wrecking the attacking planes dispersion if not outright shooting down the planes preventing those brutal 7-8k damage DB drops. Finally there were no rocket planes under the old system so the Yugumo might actually have had a chance to live even at 800 hp. (DB and TB were kinda hard to aim at fast moving DDs)

The point is, the re-work gave CVs a massive advantage over surface ships that they didn't have prior to the re-work. The biggest threats to an attacking CV planes, AA and and enemy CV fighters were nerf'd into the ground over night, leaving CVs free to strike at will against anyone they so choose. Countering CVs is dead and gone until WG fixes it, if they even bother.

[Helstrem]

1 hour ago, Pugilistic said:

Chronic tone deafness about balance right here folks. 

How so?

29 minutes ago, kill_all_planes said:

The CV would have hunted and killed them anyway. What are they supposed to do? Run off and try to hide? That's laughable at best, there is no scenario where the CV doesn't just win that situation unless he goes AFK.

Its a classic example of the CV getting to attack continuously while not risking a damn thing, its disgusting. Anyone who doesn't see the issue with that has their eyes painted on. 

ANY other surface ship in a 1 vs 4 is losing that fight 99 time out of 100.

15 minutes ago, Kevik70 said:

Not entirely true, actually not true much of all. Watching the vid, the CV only had to kill 2 of those three ships to win the game on points. Yugumo was a dead man sailing as soon as the CV spotted him, and both cruiser were majorly damaged and would have made rather easy pickings even if they'd tried running of the map.

It would have been much harder to get a win in this sort of situation under the old system. Most CV players by this point under the old system would have been running out of planes by this point of the game. AA builds and AA in general was far more punishing back in the day and CV fighters where a much greater danger to opposing CV planes. Both of these factors most likely would have meant that the Solo Warrior CV would not have full squadrons 16 minutes into the game and even if he did the allied CV could have provide much better protection with his own fighters. (If he had any left by that point) In addition, Defensive fire consumable (if the cruisers were running it) could have mitigated alot of the damage taken by absolutely wrecking the attacking planes dispersion if not outright shooting down the planes preventing those brutal 7-8k damage DB drops. Finally there were no rocket planes under the old system so the Yugumo might actually have had a chance to live even at 800 hp. (DB and TB were kinda hard to aim at fast moving DDs)

The point is, the re-work gave CVs a massive advantage over surface ships that they didn't have prior to the re-work. The biggest threats to an attacking CV planes, AA and and enemy CV fighters were nerf'd into the ground over night, leaving CVs free to strike at will against anyone they so choose. Countering CVs is dead and gone until WG fixes it, if they even bother.

If they had fled instead of charged, and the Yugumo scattered away, it is unlikely the CV would have managed to sink enough of them.  Longer distance for the enemy CV means longer flight times, more time for Defensive Fire to become available and shorter distances for the friendly CV to cover to put fighters in the way.  If the CV really wanted to sink the Yugumo instead, he could, but that would pretty much nullify his chance of sinking either cruiser.  He needs to sink the Yugumo and at least one cruiser or he loses.

The Cleveland also seemed to be holding his Defensive Fire until the CV's dive bombers were already climbing to their attack rather than making them approach through it.  There was no reason to hold it that long.  The CV didn't have time to bait it out and wait for it to expire.

[IfYouSeeKhaos]

11 minutes ago, kill_all_planes said:

The CV would have hunted and killed them anyway. What are they supposed to do? Run off and try to hide? That's laughable at best, there is no scenario where the CV doesn't just win that situation unless he goes AFK.

Its a classic example of the CV getting to attack continuously while not risking a damn thing, its disgusting. Anyone who doesn't see the issue with that has their eyes painted on. 

ANY other surface ship in a 1 vs 4 is losing that fight 99 time out of 100.

So 1 CV by itself vs 2 cruisers, a DD & the enemy CV...will win 99 out of 100 times...

IOW...1 CV vs the enemy CV & 3 other ships will win 99 out of 100 times...

So CVs are so OP that the enemy CV (by proxy also so OP) loses it's OPness when it has 3 other ships to back it up...or did you not even watch the video to realize the losing team also had it's CV alive as 1 of the last 4 ships?

Are you so much of a "it doesn't matter because CV" puppet that you responded w/out even looking to see that the other team had a CV also...a CV w/3 other ships against the solo CV...& you give the solo CV a 99% win chance...

???

[Kevik70]

2 hours ago, Helstrem said:

How so?

If they had fled instead of charged, and the Yugumo scattered away, it is unlikely the CV would have managed to sink enough of them.  Longer distance for the enemy CV means longer flight times, more time for Defensive Fire to become available and shorter distances for the friendly CV to cover to put fighters in the way.  If the CV really wanted to sink the Yugumo instead, he could, but that would pretty much nullify his chance of sinking either cruiser.  He needs to sink the Yugumo and at least one cruiser or he loses.

The Cleveland also seemed to be holding his Defensive Fire until the CV's dive bombers were already climbing to their attack rather than making them approach through it.  There was no reason to hold it that long.  The CV didn't have time to bait it out and wait for it to expire.

4 minutes is a long time and with decent drops still quite manageable, remember he only needs to kill 2 of them to win at this point. Yugumo might have had a chance to get away but the CV probably knew the general area of where he was. The should have run away, it might have even worked, since the CV didn't seem like a particularly skilled player. Doesn't change the fact that they were still more of less at the mercy of the opposing CV because that's how WG apparently wants the game to be now.

[Kevik70]

15 minutes ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

So 1 CV by itself vs 2 cruisers, a DD & the enemy CV...will win 99 out of 100 times...

IOW...1 CV vs the enemy CV & 3 other ships will win 99 out of 100 times...

So CVs are so OP that the enemy CV (by proxy also so OP) loses it's OPness when it has 3 other ships to back it up...or did you not even watch the video to realize the losing team also had it's CV alive as 1 of the last 4 ships?

Are you so much of a "it doesn't matter because CV" puppet that you responded w/out even looking to see that the other team had a CV also...a CV w/3 other ships against the solo CV...& you give the solo CV a 99% win chance...

???

The CV with teammates can't really do much at this point other than drop fighters for his teammates which to be fair to him he did try. The opposing CV on the other had has a target rich environment where he can dish out all the damage with zero of the risk to himself. CVs are fairly safe from each other since WG in their infinite wisdom had decided that CVs shouldn't be able to snipe one another easily.

[warheart1992]

The surface ships should have known better and gone to hug their own Midway. No other efficient AA than another CV.

Would a 4v1 versus some other full HP ended up the same? Most likely not since they could play with detection whereas this is impossible with CVs. All in all, the impact of late game CVs is pretty well known. While it's a sad example, it isn't unexpected.

[SteelRain_Rifleman]

Hmmmm. (Ponders the probability of how this goes down if I weigh in....and then remembers that CVs were segregated from competition by an independent contest group and WG for...reasons.)

Uh, interesting video. Fun and engaging. I am sure both teams had a great time with strategy and tactics. The execution on both sides must have been palpable. The audience must have been on the edge of their ejection seats.

 

[El2aZeR]

1 hour ago, Helstrem said:

If they had fled instead of charged, and the Yugumo scattered away, it is unlikely the CV would have managed to sink enough of them.

They were all a single halfway decent drop away from dying the moment they killed the Thunderer. The enemy CV only needed 2 kills to win, he could have achieved that by simply going rockets twice on the Yugumo and the Cleve since they cannot heal. Even if they had started to run after taking B immediately they would have likely lost to kills.
Also having full squads in a Midway at the 5 min mark especially with T8 ships involved is far from rare.

In fact the only reason why the CV didn't kill them faster is because he misplayed a few drops.

@Ahskance's analysis is therefore plain wrong and completely disconnected from the reality of CV gameplay and what they are actually capable of. The only way the surface ships could have won this is through sheer luck, either by enemy CV being bad and/or RNG messing up drops.

[kill_all_planes]

1 hour ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

So 1 CV by itself vs 2 cruisers, a DD & the enemy CV...will win 99 out of 100 times...

IOW...1 CV vs the enemy CV & 3 other ships will win 99 out of 100 times...

So CVs are so OP that the enemy CV (by proxy also so OP) loses it's OPness when it has 3 other ships to back it up...or did you not even watch the video to realize the losing team also had it's CV alive as 1 of the last 4 ships?

Are you so much of a "it doesn't matter because CV" puppet that you responded w/out even looking to see that the other team had a CV also...a CV w/3 other ships against the solo CV...& you give the solo CV a 99% win chance...

???

What's the friendly CV going to do? Hug the enemy CV to death? The friendly CV cant do barely anything to help. Those 3 surface ships were dead regardless of anything they might have tried and you're a fool if you think otherwise.

Name one thing they could have done that the enemy Midway couldn't counter, just one thing they could have done to win the game. Or do you have your head in the sand that deep you wont admit 2-3 quarter health surface ships cant do a damn thing against a CV with that many planes left. 

[kill_all_planes]

2 hours ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

Everything you just said is wrong. The CV didn't have enough time left to win it unless they all sailed right at him. Planes are fast, but not that fast

Really? You mean the CV that was at C cap while all his targets had just capped B? How far do you think they are going to get? None of them were fast ships, maybe the Yugumo escapes...maybe.

 

1 hour ago, Helstrem said:

The Cleveland also seemed to be holding his Defensive Fire until the CV's dive bombers were already climbing to their attack rather than making them approach through it.  There was no reason to hold it that long.  The CV didn't have time to bait it out and wait for it to expire.

So? Its a Midway vs T8 AA, and some Hindenburg AA, we both know that isnt stopping at least one drop. With such low health pools there was no escaping unless there was a miracle.

[atl_grunge]

CVs are disgusting, so as people trying to defend their current state.

[WarStore]

Battle was virtually over.....except for that one class that gets to damage anyone from far away without retaliation, which still is alive and sending planes, and everyone is forced to play for 4 more minutes. People have to make a choice with 4 minutes to go and all at low health.

1- Do they run away and risk get killed during these 4 minutes, which is plenty of time for anything to happen?

2- Do they try to chase down the CV, expect support from their CV and shorten the match?

They made a choice, and the broken class helped a 37% WR player to win solo warrior. Balanced.

Edit: I'd also want to point out that the vast majority of the CV players are selfish pricks. They only care about themselves. At that point of the match, I'd be moving with the rest of the team to provide AA, hit points and spotting. 

[Ahskance]

4 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

They were all a single halfway decent drop away from dying the moment they killed the Thunderer. The enemy CV only needed 2 kills to win, he could have achieved that by simply going rockets twice on the Yugumo and the Cleve since they cannot heal. Even if they had started to run after taking B immediately they would have likely lost to kills.
Also having full squads in a Midway at the 5 min mark especially with T8 ships involved is far from rare.

In fact the only reason why the CV didn't kill them faster is because he misplayed a few drops.

@Ahskance's analysis is therefore plain wrong and completely disconnected from the reality of CV gameplay and what they are actually capable of. The only way the surface ships could have won this is through sheer luck, either by enemy CV being bad and/or RNG messing up drops.

So help me understand this...

The Midway loses either 8 or 9 rockets in the opening of the video to get 7,000 damage (the Midway has either 14 or 16 depending on Slot 5 Upgrade choice).  Later in the video, we see the player taking off with 1 Rocket Plane, leading the observer to assume he had either no Rockets after that "opening" attack we saw, or that he'd yolo'd some rockets at the low health Cleveland at some point and slunk away with just the one (meaning he had maybe 3 at the time.

So, "The CV could just rocket them" has no basis in reality.

Secondly, how are you bending reality to try and say that sailing AWAY from the enemy Midway post-Thunderer kill would mean the CV could kill the 3 ships FASTER then if they continued to charge the CV hull.  Am I unaware of a mechanic where pilots need 30 seconds in the air to catch their groove and suddenly reach that CV auto-win status?

Running away (and daring the Midway to come to Bravo to cap) and using the friendly Midway's AA (which they ABSOLUTELY could have linked up with in time) is the correct play.

-----

Just because you think to yourself, "I can do this.  Easily." has no bearing on the reality of the situation.  This replay has real people, really trying as hard as they can, and just because you feel that it would be easy for a near-pro-level player to pull off doesn't mean a dang thing in regards to this replay.

[El2aZeR]

23 minutes ago, Ahskance said:

So, "The CV could just rocket them" has no basis in reality.

Full squad of rocket planes at 2:28 match time used to kill the Yugumo. Previous losses had no impact on ability to spam planes as is typical.

He could have also just cycled one strike of rockets and one strike of DBs. Estimation of two rocket squads is merely the required amount of damage to win.

 

23 minutes ago, Ahskance said:

Secondly, how are you bending reality to try and say that sailing AWAY from the enemy Midway post-Thunderer kill would mean the CV could kill the 3 ships FASTER then if they continued to charge the CV hull.

I stated no such thing. I said that the HP situation makes the match generally unwinnable regardless of whether they charge the CV or not. Again, the Midway only needs two kills which would have been easily achievable regardless of their positioning. As such to say that they threw this match by charging the CV is delusional at best. Do please try to read.

 

23 minutes ago, Ahskance said:

Just because you think to yourself, "I can do this.  Easily." has no bearing on the reality of the situation.  This replay has real people, really trying as hard as they can, and just because you feel that it would be easy for a near-pro-level player to pull off doesn't mean a dang thing in regards to this replay.

Which makes your entire attempt at an analysis moot, doesn't it? After all how you would have played it doesn't correspond with how they played it out, these are real people without your skills and ability to recognize the game winning move yada yada yada whatever poor shoddy excuse you're displaying here.

As for the reality of the situation, you are the only one blatantly misjudging it. Or you're being deliberately dishonest about it.

[WarStore]

31 minutes ago, Ahskance said:

So help me understand this...

The Midway loses either 8 or 9 rockets in the opening of the video to get 7,000 damage (the Midway has either 14 or 16 depending on Slot 5 Upgrade choice).  Later in the video, we see the player taking off with 1 Rocket Plane, leading the observer to assume he had either no Rockets after that "opening" attack we saw, or that he'd yolo'd some rockets at the low health Cleveland at some point and slunk away with just the one (meaning he had maybe 3 at the time.

So, "The CV could just rocket them" has no basis in reality.

Secondly, how are you bending reality to try and say that sailing AWAY from the enemy Midway post-Thunderer kill would mean the CV could kill the 3 ships FASTER then if they continued to charge the CV hull.  Am I unaware of a mechanic where pilots need 30 seconds in the air to catch their groove and suddenly reach that CV auto-win status?

Running away (and daring the Midway to come to Bravo to cap) and using the friendly Midway's AA (which they ABSOLUTELY could have linked up with in time) is the correct play.

-----

Just because you think to yourself, "I can do this.  Easily." has no bearing on the reality of the situation.  This replay has real people, really trying as hard as they can, and just because you feel that it would be easy for a near-pro-level player to pull off doesn't mean a dang thing in regards to this replay.

Assuming that was the correct play (and during the heat of the battle, there are multiple choices), you can't know for sure what the CV can or cannot do. It could have crossed their minds that if they had bailed and turned back, the CV could have picked them one by one anyway. Saying which was or wasn't the correct play after it the battle has already happened means nothing. What really matters is what happened, which is a single 37% WR CV killed 3 ships without suffering any damage back because there are no way they could have done anything.

[Ahskance]

4 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

@Ahskance's analysis is therefore plain wrong and completely disconnected from the reality of CV gameplay

The analysis is pretty much: "After these dudes killed the Thunderer, they really should have backed off instead of win harder"

so...

33 minutes ago, Ahskance said:

Secondly, how are you bending reality to try and say that sailing AWAY from the enemy Midway post-Thunderer kill would mean the CV could kill the 3 ships FASTER then if they continued to charge the CV hull.

11 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

I stated no such thing.

You're going to have to be articulate with your words, instead of hyperbolic and cutting with your statements.