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MollyGodiva

Fire Protection Expert Question

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Could someone please explain Fire Protection Expert? It says that it limits the maximum number of fires to three, but I have never seen more then 3 fires, and even 3 is rare. Am I missing something?

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Exactly as it says. The max number of fires on a ship without FP is four, in burnable areas on the bow, stern, and fore and aft midships. I believe the skill merges the midships sections together, so you end up only having these burnable areas on the bow, stern, and middle of the ship only - which limits the number of fires to three. 

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There are four zones on any given ship that can catch fire. Bow, fore superstructure, aft superstructure and aft. The skill combines the middle two zones, the zones that are most commonly on fire, and combines them into a single zone, meaning you can only have bow, superstructure and aft on fire.

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3 minutes ago, MollyGodiva said:

Could someone please explain Fire Protection Expert? It says that it limits the maximum number of fires to three, but I have never seen more then 3 fires, and even 3 is rare. Am I missing something?

I see you haven't met our fire god "THUNDERER" and his minion "Conqueror"


With all seriousness, all FP will do is limit the total simultaneous fires possible in one incoming salvo, from 4 to 3.

That is it...

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10 minutes ago, MollyGodiva said:

Could someone please explain Fire Protection Expert? It says that it limits the maximum number of fires to three, but I have never seen more then 3 fires, and even 3 is rare. Am I missing something?

No, you're just lucky.

IMO, the -10% fire chance is more important than the number of fires.  See here.

Edited by iDuckman

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The higher tier you go, the more fires you see, simply because ships have the survivability to tank them, as well as the massive flame spewing potential to activate them.

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15 minutes ago, Compassghost said:

The higher tier you go, the more fires you see, simply because ships have the survivability to tank them, as well as the massive flame spewing potential to activate them.

Fire is pretty common even in the lower tiers because their innate fire resistance is much lower than the high tier ships.

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49 minutes ago, iDuckman said:

No, you're just lucky.

IMO, the -10% fire chance is more important than the number of fires.  See here.

I would disagree.

As most players aim for the middle of the ship, in practice the superstructures will take the most fires. Combining the 2 zones often reduces the number of fires from 2 to 1, much more powerful than randomly removing every 10th fire. 

Although FP doesn't affect bow or stern fires, they are less targeted sections and usually get lit by collateral shots. Remember bow stern sections are more heavily armored than the superstructure, so many ships forgo direct pen damage if they deliberately target the bow/stern. 

 

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1 hour ago, Your_SAT_Score said:

As most players aim for the middle of the ship, in practice the superstructures will take the most fires. Combining the 2 zones often reduces the number of fires from 2 to 1, much more powerful than randomly removing every 10th fire. 

I don't believe it's a 10% flat fire reduction; you have to math it out.  But you have a point.  I tend to shoot at the bow/stern for a second and third fire. Most players probably don't.

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20 minutes ago, iDuckman said:

I don't believe it's a 10% flat fire reduction; you have to math it out.  But you have a point.  I tend to shoot at the bow/stern for a second and third fire. Most players probably don't.

Fire Chance = FRC · ( 1 - DCM1 ) · ( 1 - FP ) · ( ( FCB · IFHE ) + PY + Σ S )

where:

  • FRC — the ship's Fire Resistance Coefficient (see above).
  • DCM1 — the effect of the Damage Control System Modification 1 upgrade: 5% (0.05) with the upgrade installed, zero without.
  • FP — the effect of the Fire Prevention skill: 10% (0.10) with the skill, zero without.
  • FCB — the Projectile Base Fire Chance (see above).
  • IFHE — the effect of the IFHE commander skill: 50% (0.5) or one without the skill.
  • PY — the effect of the Pyrotechnician commander skill: 0.01 with the skill, zero without.
  • Σ S — the sum of the effects of the mounted Signals Victor Lima +1% chance of causing a fire for bombs and shells with a caliber above 160mm / +0.5% chance of causing a fire for bombs and shells with a caliber below 160mm. / +4% chance of causing flooding. and India X-Ray +1% chance of causing a fire for bombs and shells with a caliber above 160mm. / +0.5% chance of causing a fire for bombs and shells with a caliber below 160mm. / +5% to the risk of your ship's magazine detonating.: +0.01 or +0.005 each depending on gun caliber, else zero.

 

Looking at the calculations, FP reduces overall fire chance by 10% per shell, which is the same as 10% less fires. 

Shooting at the bow/stern is less practical at longer ranges if the target is moving. More shells will miss due to smaller target, so you may actually undercut your own damage by trying to go for those fires. 

Also, DDs and most CLs cannot pen BB bow/stern without IFHE. If they go for the bow/stern, then they are gambling on a fire rather than going for guaranteed superstructure damage.  

Edited by Your_SAT_Score
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4 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

IWith all seriousness, all FP will do is limit the total simultaneous fires possible in one incoming salvo, from 4 to 3.

That is it...

That’s wrong.

It limits total fires burning simultaneously  to three, regardless of how many salvoes, or shells , bomb drops initiate them.

An not only is that not it, that is not all, either.

There is also the 10% reduction in fire chance, as calculated by the formula one post up.

Edited by MannyD_of_The_Sea

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Thank you all for your assistance. When is it worth taking? I am guessing is less useful in coop.

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A must have for a BB brawler.  I run it on all my brawling BBs...and a good many of my other BBs as well.

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23 minutes ago, MollyGodiva said:

Thank you all for your assistance. When is it worth taking? I am guessing is less useful in coop.

Not only is fires in co op less of an issue, you can also exploit the fires as way to control what the bots shoot at you with.

 

Once you get a single fire on you, any non-DD (cruisers really) that was shooting HE at you, would then switch over to AP rounds and you can bounce those AP shells provided you are angled. You can also have the bots waste time switching shells mid reload if you put out a fire, thus giving you more time to do a drive by or align your armament to fire upon the bot.

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2 hours ago, Your_SAT_Score said:

Looking at the calculations, FP reduces overall fire chance by 10% per shell, which is the same as 10% less fires. 

Yep, you're right.  It's a straight 90% multiplier.  Thanks for the clarification.

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4 hours ago, Your_SAT_Score said:

As most players aim for the middle of the ship, in practice the superstructures will take the most fires. Combining the 2 zones often reduces the number of fires from 2 to 1, much more powerful than randomly removing every 10th fire.

It's even more powerful when one considers sustained HE fire. Who cares that you won't get that 10th fire, if the 11th fire will start in that spot in the next fives seconds.

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Fire Prevention (the old but identical version of FPE before the rework) was almost without fail the first 4pt skill I would grab for my BBs - the value of only being able to get one fire amidships cannot be overstated.

While FPE is definitely not a bad choice, I honestly haven’t played enough BBs post-0.10.0 to properly access its new value, as Dead Eye, Concealment Expert, and the new version of Superintendent all now compete for those 4 points (and other skills as well if you are pursuing a secondary build). What little I’ve played since the patch dropped has largely been trying to figure out the new cruiser meta. 

Edited by Nevermore135

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12 hours ago, MollyGodiva said:

Could someone please explain Fire Protection Expert? It says that it limits the maximum number of fires to three, but I have never seen more then 3 fires, and even 3 is rare. Am I missing something?

Sort of. FP reduces the max fires by combining the two superstructure "fire zones" into one.

I generally don't use it myself, because my observations are similar. Two fires is not uncommon, but having two in the superstructure, and not having DC ready, or having the same two fires re-lit, is uncommon. Three fires (again, without the ability to make it go away) is quite rare.

Having said that, your playstyle will have an influence. For example, someone who does a lot of low/no speed bow-tanking, will likely see a higher incidence of multiple unstoppable fires, as would someone who frequently brawls.

IMO, while it does certainly provide a useful benefit, whether it does so more than another skill choice is really a YMMV situation.

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Fire Prevention is a skill that you don't really notice the benefit of until you run the same ship without it.

If you are reasonably bow in, then even long range plunging shells are far more likely to strike the super structure than stern, and FP prevents a second fire on the centre of the ship.

I have tried to work out if Emergency Repair Expert is better than FP if I'm forced to pick one, but my guess is it's not.

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1 hour ago, SoothingWhaleSongEU said:

Fire Prevention is a skill that you don't really notice the benefit of until you run the same ship without it.

EXACTLY!!!!

I've run my ships without it before the skills update and after the recent update.  The difference is very noticeable without it.  To the point that wherever I put those four points was no way making up for what I was losing...so back to FP they go.

Note that play style and ship is important.  If you are a sniper and can drop from detection when things get tough...or have a ship with a fast DCP reload...or super heal...you might have a case to put those point somewhere else.  But if you're in there mixing it up without those benefits...then take it.

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I think it was and still is a solid choice. Even if it isn't the 100% best choice for a particular ship, setup, or play style, it isn't a bad choice by any means and you can't go wrong with it because you will get hit by HE rounds, lots of times.

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Ive burned down from three or four fires usually combined with flooding before.

Game is pretty much over at that point. I usually ram something. More profitable in little damage rather than shooting.

It takes being fired at from both sides of yourself to make that happen. That usually comes from being assigned B objective at map start. Sometimes I go to either A or C to avoid that outcome. I do not generally spend the 4 points into fire suppression. Three fires is already pretty bad, One more wont matter a whit. Just burn a little faster to zero.

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Did someone say fire chances!?

11 hours ago, iDuckman said:

I don't believe it's a 10% flat fire reduction; you have to math it out.  But you have a point.  I tend to shoot at the bow/stern for a second and third fire. Most players probably don't.

 

11 hours ago, Your_SAT_Score said:
Fire Chance = FRC · ( 1 - DCM1 ) · ( 1 - FP ) · ( ( FCB · IFHE ) + PY + Σ S )

[...]

Yeah, it's a non-trivial bit of math to find your true fire chance against a specific target.

Once you've done that, though, there's some further analysis that can tell you the actual value of a change in your fire chance. This is all from my 2016 thread, "How to quantify the effect of fire chance modification."

let n be the number of hits
let w(n) be fire chance after n shells: w(n) = 1 - (1-f)n

NbHluPF.png&key=01ed58c8558afa23c2160199

Example for actual fire chance of 10% per shell

Don't ask why that percentage chance graph goes up to 120. Skipping the mathematical justification here, we manipulate this relationship to find λ, the decay rate of the exponential function hiding in the graph above, then that leads to , the average number of hits required to set a ship section on fire, given all the values @Your_SAT_Score explained above. The formula for is
= -ln[(1-f)]-1

This enables you to find different fire chances representing different commander builds for your ship, then turn them into a change in the average number of shells you'll need to start fires. Then you can think about your reload speed, expected accuracy, and a bunch of other factors and decide for yourself how much actual difference you think you'll get out of your skills and signals for a given ship.

I go into these concepts in more depth in the thread, for all two of you who are still reading this post. For the rest, here's a neat graph to skim past!

On 3/19/2016 at 8:31 PM, Special_Kay said:

DPeDEDl.png

How many shells are needed, on average, for a wide range of effective per-shell fire chances

In conclusion, just take fire prevention, because in spite of all that I just said, the merging of your two middle nodes is a way bigger deal than any of this math will ever be.

wTXpUia.png

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16 hours ago, iDuckman said:

No, you're just lucky.

IMO, the -10% fire chance is more important than the number of fires.  See here.

 

15 hours ago, Your_SAT_Score said:

I would disagree.

As most players aim for the middle of the ship, in practice the superstructures will take the most fires. Combining the 2 zones often reduces the number of fires from 2 to 1, much more powerful than randomly removing every 10th fire. 

Although FP doesn't affect bow or stern fires, they are less targeted sections and usually get lit by collateral shots. Remember bow stern sections are more heavily armored than the superstructure, so many ships forgo direct pen damage if they deliberately target the bow/stern. 

 

By reducing the possible number of fires in the superstructure you have reduced that areas fire chance by 50% and the maximum number of fires by 25%. The -10% comes off the fire chance at some point in the calculation and depending on where it is factored its effect might not be that big.

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11 hours ago, MannyD_of_The_Sea said:

t limits total fires burning simultaneously  to three,

Cool we agree, from 4 to 3... As noted in post #2 as to what 4 places, you can burn simultaneously.

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