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Panzer1113

What Tier 10 games have Devolved into

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Multiple Thunderers at distance spamming HE.  Since the rework - this is the game now.  Just had a game in my Vermont - two AP hits for 5,163 damage - the rest HE - and the fire damage that goes with it.  Running around like the Olympic torch all game - just a joke

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Dead eye can't save you there OP...

The situations of high tier match play, haven't changed from the last patch...

Edited by Navalpride33
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Nothing about this is new. Fires have always been rough to deal with, and Thunderer has always been the king of the arsonists. 

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8 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

Dead eye can't save you there OP...

The situations of the high tier in match play, haven't changed from the last patch...

Been playing for quite awhile - and HE spamming has been part of the game - we all remember Smol-ville, but since the rework - the playstyle I have seen for BB play has been multiple Thunderers per game (more then before) - and longer range gunnery.  This is what I am seeing and experiencing - and in my opinion is not a good thing.

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8 minutes ago, Panzer1113 said:

Been playing for quite awhile - and HE spamming has been part of the game - we all remember Smol-ville, but since the rework - the playstyle I have seen for BB play has been multiple Thunderers per game (more then before) - and longer range gunnery.  This is what I am seeing and experiencing - and in my opinion is not a good thing.

High tier is a hot mess.

The odd part about it... People like high tier matches even with its flaws.

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That is cuz high tier offers the best fxp and credit gain economy.

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42 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

Dead eye can't save you there OP...

The situations of the high tier in match play, haven't changed from the last patch...

There is clearly a huge behavior difference.  Was long range sniping a thing before the patch yes.  Was ;long range sniping nearly as prevalent before the patch no.  Does dead eye reward good aim from long range? No question about it. Dead eye does.  Long range sniping is the meta. This will not change until commander skill rework is addressed. 

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16 minutes ago, Rothgar_57 said:

Does dead eye reward good aim from long range? No question about it. Dead eye does.  Long range sniping is the meta. This will not change until commander skill rework is addressed.  

I am at a disagreement In bold mainly... The "Players aim" variable is just to much... The deviation on that variable can go both ways... So the results are not fix for everyone.


  Now, where your "long range is the Meta" argument holds water, lays on the psychological side...

If the majority of player base,  believe the skill is OP and useful.. Then, as a whole (and I would argue temporarily) the meta has been altered. 

So far from what I've seen... IMO based on math... Dead eye skill is not worth 4 cpt pts.... The ability of the skill is overkill at high tiers, not necessarily OP..

For I say after what I noted above... "For each man their own."

Edited by Navalpride33

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44 minutes ago, Panzer1113 said:

This is what I am seeing and experiencing - and in my opinion is not a good thing.

It is if you drop in a torp DD or some other ship that feeds from BBs. Let nature run its course and just pluck the season's fruit.

Edited by ArIskandir

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17 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

I am at a disagreement In bold mainly... The "Players aim" variable is just to much... The deviation on that variable can go both ways... So the results are not fix for everyone.


  Now, where your "long range is the Meta" argument holds water, lays on the psychological side...

If the majority of player base,  believe the skill is OP and useful.. Then, as a whole (and I would argue temporarily) the meta has been altered. 

So far from what I've seen... IMO based on math... Dead eye skill is not worth 4 cpt pts.... The ability of the skill is overkill at high tiers, not necessarily OP..

For I say after what I noted above... "For each man their own."

Since January 18th (18th is as far as i can go back) you have played zero T9 or T10 matches.   Before you go commenting on skill that impacts High tiers the most, perhaps you should play some high tier games.  Since we now know you don't play high tiers. Perhaps you could play a representative sample of games in T10 then give your opinion on DEAD EYE.

Edited by Rothgar_57
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I see so few Thunderer's now - have not had more than 1 on a regular basis...  on either team.

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22 minutes ago, Rothgar_57 said:

Since January 18th (18th is as far as i can go back) you have played zero T9 or T10 matches.   Before you go commenting on skill that impacts High tiers the most, perhaps you should play some high tier games.  Since we now know you don't play high tiers. Perhaps you could play a representative sample of games in T10 then give your opinion on DEAD EYE.

Oh wow stat shaming....

Tier 8s do see tier 9 or 10 matches.. You dont have to be in a tier X ship to experience tier X play style...

Not to mention I play a lot of tier 10 on PTS as my sand box on the Capt skills and the gathering results they may provide.


Here... A refresher

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Matchmaking#Battle_Tiers


Because I represent the players who quit, moved on or avoid high tier (on the live server) like the Spanish flu..

When it comes to gathering data on any topic (dead eye or other wise)...

  • I know where to go...
  • I know the "how to"
  • I know to troubleshoot/defend my findings...
  • If there's a discrepancy I am open to go through my troubleshoot and revise my findings...

Who am I to shatter your views/beliefs on Deadeye>?

Spoiler

Just an avg player with decent math skills.

 

 

 

Edited by Navalpride33
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This is my perspective:

Since the patch, BB's are now perma camped in the rear in T10 games. Doesn't matter if its Thunderer's or Montana's. They are all spamming HE at each other. I recall back in the day, all BB's were complaining about people spamming HE at them. Funny how things now change and they are the HE spammers.

I've had games where we lost, yet we had 7 ships to their 3 left. Why did we lose? Our BB's refused to move up and take caps, while the winning team just did that.

Is the game more toxic at T10 since the captain skill rework (Deadeye). In my opinion yes.

The perception is now all the BB's sit in the rear and will not move up at all.  There really isn't any mid play or short ranged play anymore. Cruisers no longer can build for survivability, which I think wargames needs to revisit that and allow it. Especially with the meta changed to long range sniping. The BB's can build for survivability but no one else?

The Patch did the following:

Nerfed Cruisers

Nerfed Battleships Secondary Builds

Killed off Mid/Close fighting

 

Again just *MY* Perception.

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These posts all day long are as boring as the games I don’t know which one is worse . 

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Is Deadeye the best way to do damage?

 

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@naval Pride. I am pointing out that your commenting on a Skill which is much more prevalent in a Tier you do not play. So how are we supposed to weigh you first hand knowledge on this skill when you don't have any.  Play some T10 Randoms on the  real server. Put you ship into combat. Come up with some first hand accounts. Then provide your opinion. 

I am not stat shaming you. Your a pretty damn good player looking at your stats. 

Edited by Rothgar_57

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26 minutes ago, Rothgar_57 said:

  Play some T10 on a real server put you ship into combat come up with some first hand accounts.

In the psyche of players, I agree the skill has dominated high tier matches...  Function wise... Deadeye ( at high tiers) is overkill... Not over powered..


As long as I played 3 yrs... I already know the deviation from PTS to live... I trust my math, if tier 10 sucks on PTS... Its going to be a lot worse on live...

I already know the math behind the skill and the possible "Improvements."

No need to prove it again (3 +3 =6 all day every day, The sun will rise and set 365 days a year)  on the live side...

The improvement of using the skill is minuscule... Its dependent on the variable of "players aim."

So, using my aim as the end all is ill-advise when trying to determine an event result as a whole...

Functional Results of the skill will/may vary...

The psychological results on the player base... Is detrimental.


Besides, its not supposed to be al work and no play... Live server is where I play and have fun... Not to gather Data... I've done gathering data  already on PTS...

Edited by Navalpride33

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9 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

In the psyche of players, I agree the skill has dominated high tier matches...  Function wise... Deadeye ( at high tiers) is overkill... Not over powered..


As long as I played 3 yrs... I already know the deviation from PTS to live... I trust my math, if tier 10 sucks on PTS... Its going to be a lot worse on live...

I already know the math behind the skill and the possible "Improvements."

No need to prove it again (3 +3 =6 all day every day, The sun will rise and set 365 days a year)  on the live side...

The improvement of using the skill is minuscule... Its dependent on the variable of "players aim."

So, using my aim as the end all is ill-advise when trying to determine an event result as a whole...

Functional Results of the skill will/may vary...

The psychological results on the player base... Is detrimental.


Besides, its not supposed to be al work and no play... Live server is where I play and have fun... Not to gather Data... I've dont that already on PTS...

You sound like wargaming employee.   I don't have to actually go experience it cause i have a spreadsheet.  Do you work for wargaming?

Edited by Rothgar_57
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2 minutes ago, Rothgar_57 said:

You sound like wargaming employee.   I don't have to actually go experience it cause i have a spreadsheet.  Do you work for wargaming?

If you know my past comment history... WG dont like me...

I am critical of WG and of anything else that is against the "Fair Play" doctrine.

I am more of an Objector, a neutral party. ..


I'll take your critique as a compliment...

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Yeah, Tier X is more or less the same. You just lost a bit of survivability if you play cruisers. For 2 simple reasons

1- The buff of some snipping BB via Dead Eye. Not as big as claimed, but still a factor in some games. 
2- The lost of important survivability skills ( FP / BoS / PM ). Making you more vulnerable to fires and modules getting disabled at the worse possible moments.

I suspect that lots of players are adapting to this. But it does impact gameplay: cruisers need to take even less risks now, because they are just more vulnerable. As a tradeoff, the class got  skills to improve damage output but it does not mean so much when survivability is lower overall. It is a bad trade, AFAIC. I hope WG will revisit this eventually.

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2 minutes ago, Mr_Argamas said:

Yeah, Tier X is more or less the same. You just lost a bit of survivability if you play cruisers. For 2 simple reasons

1- The buff of some snipping BB via Dead Eye. Not as big as claimed, but still a factor in some games. 
2- The lost of important survivability skills ( FP / BoS / PM ). Making you more vulnerable to fires and modules getting disabled at the worse possible moments.

I suspect that lots of players are adapting to this. But it does impact gameplay: cruisers need to take even less risks now, because they are just more vulnerable. As a tradeoff, the class got  skills to improve damage output but it does not mean so much when survivability is lower overall. It is a bad trade, AFAIC. I hope WG will revisit this eventually.

Yup! They need to do something about cruisers. Give them Survivability back, maybe better skills that don't have such a negative on them. Like Heavy HE or SAP with those huge negatives to their concealment (Take the negative off of it)

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3 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

High tier is a hot mess.

The odd part about it... People like high tier matches even with its flaws.

Then there’s contrarian me.

Screw high tiers. I play what I feel like; especially now that the UU missions have gone away.

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4 hours ago, CylonRed said:

I see so few Thunderer's now - have not had more than 1 on a regular basis...  on either team.

not sure and cant prove anything but i believe the dead eye got a back ally mugging ,,not only them but others also...seems like it to me.... 

Edited by arch4random
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1 hour ago, Gemlin said:

Yup! They need to do something about cruisers. Give them Survivability back, maybe better skills that don't have such a negative on them. Like Heavy HE or SAP with those huge negatives to their concealment (Take the negative off of it)

Frankly, I don't think that the primary survivability skills (BoS and FP) mean a damned thing for cruisers other than the super cruisers.  The lost skill that hurt the ultra light cruisers (those armed with DD guns) is AFT.  But on the flip side those same ships can use Heavy HE/SAP Shells without penalty.  OTOH, regular 6" gunned CLs are kind of hosed by the fact that there are no skills that really help them.  Heavy HE/SAP comes with the penalty.   I have to admit that I wish that the Heavy HE/SAP skill's gun caliber limitation was increased to allow 6" guns to use that skill without penalty.

Heavy AP Shells won't help out many CLs that have very weak penning 6" AP ammo.  (It probably will help out RN AP-only CLs though.)  Heavy cruisers and super cruisers with good AP can certainly get good value out of Heavy AP shells, of course.  Flip side, there are some CAs and super cruisers with relatively weak AP who may not get good value out of the Heavy AP skill.

Arguably, there will be some cruisers who could get some value out of the torp skills.  But overall, I'm not overly impressed with using torp skills on cruiser  captains, as I see torp skills  as being VERY secondary to most cruisers' primary mission, which is focused on their guns.

It seems to me that too many of the new skills are a bit too esoteric and corner-cased for my tastes.  And I tend to favor the AA skills because those are skills that I can really wrap my mind around.

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