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NoZoupForYou

Brawling and Pushing is Far From Dead

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Maybe I'm being overly optimistic. I agree Dead Eye isn't a great idea or skill and it has caused negative effects. But a lot of it is overblown. So you have an option. You can take the negatives of the skill, listen to doom-sayers and sit in the back... or you can play the game how you want and on your own terms. I've had more fun in BBs lately than I have in a long time without dead eye and solely by pushing. 

 

 

Edited by NoZoupForYou
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9 minutes ago, NoZoupForYou said:

Maybe I'm being overly optimistic. I agree Dead Eye isn't a great idea or skill and it has caused negative effects. But a lot of it is overblown. So you have an option. You can take the negatives of the skill, listen to doom-sayers and sit in the back... or you can play the game how you want and on your own terms. I've had more fun in BBs lately than I have in a long time without dead eye and solely by pushing. 

 

 

How about getting rid of the dead eye skill! That fixes a lot. Simple.

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Have you learned how deadeye works or is still other people's fault for not understanding what you meant?

And look at those secondaries going off....and missing most of the time. So good.

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16 minutes ago, GSXstage1 said:

How about getting rid of the dead eye skill! That fixes a lot. Simple.

As simple as world peace, or erasing the deficit in 12 months.....

Edited by Skpstr
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As someone who at times is overly critical of your content I appreciate the more calm and collected tone of this video.

In my opinion however, as you also say it's up to the player, the average player, especially when it comes to BBs, just wants to shoot big guns and watch big numbers, not really push or be tactically minded. Deadeye does two things that are not needed in the game, regardless if the reactions are overblown (which to a certain extent indeed is). It helps in offering that instant gratification in big damage/numbers, while at the same time giving you either more room to react to return fire or be completely out of cruiser return fire, unless it's a tier IX-X. By pushing a couple of kilometers back the active range at which a BB can be reasonably accurate you make it safe from almost everything that doesn't have 17km of range at least and give it a couple of seconds to potentially angle better.

In turn this discourages using many support CAs that have shorter ranges but also carry important consumables for objective control. The most successful cruiser builds are of the purposefully nerfed concealment in order to be able to farm better. They are efficient, but also selfish. This leads on it's own to DDs getting out of control. Especially torpedo boats benefited greatly from the rework as their natural counter is gone and they can go for some scary angles to torpedo people from. I'm saying this as someone that could be considered a DD main with thousands of battles in almost every type of DD. Of course all this affects BBs even more in their decision to play further back.

Bottom line, while Deadeye madness is indeed overblown to some extent and often affects players more on the psychological than the practical aspect, it disturbs the  ship class ecosystem to an unprecedented degree. And while the Rock Paper Scissors interaction in my opinion is a remnant of the past,  hard counters still exist that play their role.

Edited by warheart1992
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1 hour ago, WarStore said:

Have you learned how deadeye works or is still other people's fault for not understanding what you meant?

And look at those secondaries going off....and missing most of the time. So good.

This!

 

And also, show a T9 game on a map with most island cover in the center of them all and claim Dead Eye is overblown?! Its like when his pro tip on negating the Dead Eye skill was "just to push into them"........... Yeah....

I guess this video wouldnt be as good of an example if he were playing your Jean Bart in T10 (which happens most of the time) against 3-4 Dead Eye Thunderers (which happens most of the time) on one of the majority of maps with far less island cover in the middle (which happens most of the time).

Then his secondary specced JB would be burnt to a crisp within first 4-5 minutes and all his secondary mounts would be non existent, so good use of captain skill points.

 

So maybe ..... NOT so "blown over" ....... Maybe ... just maybe the rest of the 95 % of the playerbase are actually on to something when criticising the Dead Eye skill and the rework?

 

Could he as a WG CC perhaps stop pushing out very misleading videos about the game. I kind of feel sorry for those new players watching his videos because he is a CC and actually listening to his advice.

Edited by Oldschool_Gaming_YT
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I've had a lot of fun doing non META things...playing everyday....but lets not pretend that deadeye isn't horribly OP...and hasn't damaged gameplay badly....or that secondaries and brawling are in a good place either...We all can post cherry picked games that are exceptions to this, but they don't prove anything. The rework is a total disaster, and if they keep botching these updates its going to be increasingly harder to have fun.

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Thanks for sharing @NoZoupForYou, great video. I've actually seen quite a few games where BB's are pushing and brawling exactly as your video shows. Granted they've been Tier 8-9 games but still it's clear that BB's pushing successfully isn't dead due to DeadEye. In fact I was in a game where a Georgia and with a GFK pushed through a flank so fast that it was hard for us cruisers to keep up, the two BB's just went on a tear getting up close and personal and it was a really fun match  (we ended up winning handily because the other team was playing so passive).

A couple of things that I would have liked to see in your video were the details scoring page so we could see just how well your JB secondaries did and your Captain build for that round. 

Happy Sailing!

 

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1 hour ago, NoZoupForYou said:

Maybe I'm being overly optimistic. I agree Dead Eye isn't a great idea or skill and it has caused negative effects. But a lot of it is overblown. So you have an option. You can take the negatives of the skill, listen to doom-sayers and sit in the back... or you can play the game how you want and on your own terms. I've had more fun in BBs lately than I have in a long time without dead eye and solely by pushing. 

 

 

100% I have had some AMAZING brawling battles in my JB, in Republique, in Wujing, in Pommern, Scharn, Gneis, Bismarck, Der Grosse!

It is NOT dead. But ya know, there are people that love the click bait [edited] statements to try to spin stuff. The issue I see now, is you can't just push mindlessly into the enemy and have success (OH NO), you have to CHOOSE when to push, CHOOSE where to position, and engage your grey matter in order to make it work. This is ANOTHER case of players needing to learn tactics, learn to grow with the game. I have yet to put Deadeye on ANY of my BBs and I am doing just fine without it.

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2 hours ago, Spirit_of_76 said:

Hey, there. Being happy is against the rules here.

Hahaha... I know, right!  I should have spread more doom and gloom.

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1 minute ago, Ephetian said:

100% I have had some AMAZING brawling battles in my JB, in Republique, in Wujing, in Pommern, Scharn, Gneis, Bismarck, Der Grosse!

It is NOT dead. But ya know, there are people that love the click bait [edited] statements to try to spin stuff. The issue I see now, is you can't just push mindlessly into the enemy and have success (OH NO), you have to CHOOSE when to push, CHOOSE where to position, and engage your grey matter in order to make it work. This is ANOTHER case of players needing to learn tactics, learn to grow with the game. I have yet to put Deadeye on ANY of my BBs and I am doing just fine without it.

Have you used Close Quarters at all?  I'm still messing around trying to determine if its worth the few extra seconds of reload. Either way, WG has given plenty of build options for secondaries. 

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4 minutes ago, NoZoupForYou said:

Have you used Close Quarters at all?  I'm still messing around trying to determine if its worth the few extra seconds of reload. Either way, WG has given plenty of build options for secondaries. 

I do! I have full secondary builds, well, quasi, because I have fire prevention as well. If a SMART and GOOD player knows how to rotate DC and RP they can tank A LOT of damage and in fact I have seen my "Potential Damage" numbers going up significantly since the rework.

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1 hour ago, WarStore said:

Have you learned how deadeye works or is still other people's fault for not understanding what you meant?

And look at those secondaries going off....and missing most of the time. So good.

With any new skill, we all are learning how it works in the beginning. Another popular EU CC said that CVs affected Dead Eye as well, so I'm not the only one prone to error.  It's not like WG provides a manual on how anything and everything works.  But go on being a pessimist.  I'll remain optimistic because... well, it's a game, and reading through the majority of your previous posts... I'm sorry you hate the game and community as much as it appears you do.  

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1 minute ago, Ephetian said:

I do! I have full secondary builds, well, quasi, because I have fire prevention as well. If a SMART and GOOD player knows how to rotate DC and RP they can tank A LOT of damage and in fact I have seen my "Potential Damage" numbers going up significantly since the rework.

I was honestly surprised seeing MO's secondary range along with JB's.  Even if the secondary's don't hit, there is a psychological factor and its enough to chase DDs off, and again, you get that CQ bonus.

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1 minute ago, NoZoupForYou said:

I was honestly surprised seeing MO's secondary range along with JB's.  Even if the secondary's don't hit, there is a psychological factor and its enough to chase DDs off, and again, you get that CQ bonus.

Republique! 12.5KM secondaries! it's insane! and actually a GREAT early warning system, if you're shooting at something and then suddenly hear your secondaries going off you know to look around

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2 minutes ago, Ephetian said:

Republique! 12.5KM secondaries! it's insane! and actually a GREAT early warning system, if you're shooting at something and then suddenly hear your secondaries going off you know to look around

Yup!  People are so focused on Dead Eye, but there have been so many good other additions added with the rework.  Maybe one day more players will catch on.  Once DDs and CAs lose their fear of dead eye and get more aggresive, it it will nullify that skill.  Longer secondaries though always have an advantage.

Edited by NoZoupForYou
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2 minutes ago, Ephetian said:

Republique! 12.5KM secondaries! it's insane! and actually a GREAT early warning system, if you're shooting at something and then suddenly hear your secondaries going off you know to look around

Heres the thing, with ANYTHING that certain people don't like... we're going to have some major "scandal" or major "horrible change" before people even USE the dang thing or know how to...  Is Deadeye bad? not really, it's not great though, and WG has straight up said they are tracking the numbers and trends etc etc. As a numbers guy by trade I know that this data collection doesn't just POOF happen. But people are impatient and want everything right now. Like I said, I read over the skill, I don't like the idea of ANY skill that is situational... because I don't want something that only works "if"

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4 minutes ago, Ephetian said:

Heres the thing, with ANYTHING that certain people don't like... we're going to have some major "scandal" or major "horrible change" before people even USE the dang thing or know how to...  Is Deadeye bad? not really, it's not great though, and WG has straight up said they are tracking the numbers and trends etc etc. As a numbers guy by trade I know that this data collection doesn't just POOF happen. But people are impatient and want everything right now. Like I said, I read over the skill, I don't like the idea of ANY skill that is situational... because I don't want something that only works "if"

I don't have to jump off a cliff to know that jumping off a cliff is a bad idea. 

I don't need data from people jumping off a cliff to decide if jumping off a cliff is a bad idea or not. 

Edited by OuijaApologist
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9 minutes ago, Ephetian said:

Republique! 12.5KM secondaries! it's insane! and actually a GREAT early warning system, if you're shooting at something and then suddenly hear your secondaries going off you know to look around

The other thing people aren't realizing when you have 12km secondaries, if your BB has 13.4km concealment, you are virtually in secondary range by the time you are spotted which gives one more huge advantage.

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2 hours ago, Spirit_of_76 said:

Hey, there. Being happy is against the rules here.

The first few weeks of the CV relaunch, some people in here were very much against posters saying they kinda didn't mind it all.

 

Some things have not changed - just the names.

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12 minutes ago, NoZoupForYou said:

With any new skill, we all are learning how it works in the beginning. Another popular EU CC said that CVs affected Dead Eye as well, so I'm not the only one prone to error.  It's not like WG provides a manual on how anything and everything works.  But go on being a pessimist.  I'll remain optimistic because... well, it's a game, and reading through the majority of your previous posts... I'm sorry you hate the game and community as much as it appears you do.  

But that is not what you said. You said that detecting a ship would deactivate desdeye, and you can get detect by several means, when the skill clearly stated that only visible enemies within the dectect range can deactivate the skill. So, not only you were terribly wrong about that, you also made a follow up "mea culpa" getting it wrong again.

 

And I am not pessimistic about everything. I was actually optimistic about the skill rework. It is only that I don't shill for a company that does bad stuff for profit.

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2 minutes ago, OuijaApologist said:

I don't have to jump off a cliff to know that jumping off a cliff is a bad idea. 

I don't need data from people jumping off a cliff to decide if jumping off a cliff is a bad idea or not. 

What? What are you talking about!? Completely off topic......

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2 minutes ago, OuijaApologist said:

I don't have to jump off a cliff to know that jumping off a cliff is a bad idea. 

I don't need data from people jumping off a cliff to decide if jumping off a cliff is a bad idea or not. 

It's not quite that simple though. 

You do need data, and lots of it.  There is a very large amount of skill level that needs to be accounted for.  Is Dead Eye helping everyone proportionately?  Is it helping anyone at all?  Are players using it doing more damage per round?  Or are they just doing more damage against one ship in one salvo while doing the same damage overall? These are all questions that require a ton of data.

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3 minutes ago, NoZoupForYou said:

It's not quite that simple though. 

You do need data, and lots of it.  There is a very large amount of skill level that needs to be accounted for.  Is Dead Eye helping everyone proportionately?  Is it helping anyone at all?  Are players using it doing more damage per round?  Or are they just doing more damage against one ship in one salvo while doing the same damage overall? These are all questions that require a ton of data.

And a big question, that I am waiting to see answered, "Are players even using it correctly!?"

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