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Awe5ome

I'm so done with this.

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Over the past 2 years I've played this game I've had a lot of fun moments, that being said there were moments that I hated this game. When WG rolled out the CV rework I quit the game for over a month, but other than that I've played this game every single day. I've spent more money on this game than I have spent on any other game, and I love this community. I want nothing but the best for this game and generally am not one to rage at WG for a decision that I felt was ridiculous. I've contributed to this community with premium ship reviews (albeit poorly written reviews) and have made compilations of this game. I started a clan and have helped a bunch of new players learn the game and become better at it. I honestly couldn't be prouder to say that I support this game and community, back in 2017 when hurricane Harvey hit USS Texas we raised $281,000 and we've probably impacted the lives of many through WG support of "Save the Children" and "Wounded Warrior Project". I don't want to give up this game, and I don't want to see it become a pay-to-win game, or see the core community abandon it. However, the lack of thought that has gone into this update is insane. CC's were warning about this happening, the player base was saying don't give us more HE spam and don't bring in deadeye.

Yet here we are.

I don't get it, why? Why would you guys shoot yourselves in the foot and then insist everything is fine? If you've played this game you know it's not fine. Old players who left are just happier that they quit. And here we stand, left with what was once the best Naval MMO you could get. I genuinely want to know WG, did you not hear our concerns or did you just not care? Are you actively ignoring any feedback that isn't exactly what you want to hear? And are you not playing your own game?

When the rework was first announced I thought "huh, cool! It be nice to see some of the old outdated skills get replaced with newer more effective ones." And you know what? Some of these changes I like, for example, a secondary build costs 10 skill points instead of 14. I can have a different captain builds on different classes. And I guess the 21 skill point cap is a cool change over the previous 19. But when we consider the pros and cons of this update I find myself with a lot more cons than pros.

CONS

- Deadeye, this single skill is the dumbest thing in this entire update. Because it appears as though you guys forgot something about circles, circles have the smallest perimeter to their area. This holds true even when talking of eclipses, and since deadeye decreases the maximum dispersion of both horizontal and vertical dispersion you just reduced the perimeter by 10% but the area that the shells can land has decreased exponentially. This is such a massive buff for long-range ships. IT'S INSANE.

 

You know what? I just realized that I'm putting a lot of work into something that very few people will see, fewer people will care, those who do care are in the same boat as myself and WarGaming will continue doing whatever they want so there's no point in me writing this out. Besides, I've given well thought out feedback before and never once received a message from a human saying "We'll consider it" or "No we're not doing that". On top of that, the mods will lock this thread, HapaFodder will write a company-issued statement about "caring for this community" and "we're looking at the numbers" before locking the thread himself. Or he'll just outright delete this and give me a permanent forum ban for all this. I'm just so sick of this. So I'll end with this, WG if you're reading this, take away deadeye, give us back the old system and actually listen to what we're saying. I'm not going to issue a warning about the community abandoning you, or say that you're driving committed players like myself away, but I will say that that this past year has been heart-breaking, depressing and I didn't need you to fix something that wasn't broken by blowing it up with a 16" gun. I'm done, feel free to delete this.

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I like dead eye.  BB's were a helluva lot more accurate than they are portrayed in game.   It's nice being a threat at long range as BBs should be.

Edited by Farm_Fresh_Eggs
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14 minutes ago, Farm_Fresh_Eggs said:

I like dead eye.  BB's were a helluva lot more accurate than they are portrayed in game.   It's nice being a threat at long range as BBs should be.

That's nice but the maps are a little small for BB to be so accurate at long range. Then when you add in many cruisers having significantly less range than BB you run into a problem.

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28 minutes ago, Awe5ome said:

- Deadeye, this single skill is the dumbest thing in this entire update. Because it appears as though you guys forgot something about circles, circles have the smallest perimeter to their area. This holds true even when talking of eclipses, and since deadeye decreases the maximum dispersion of both horizontal and vertical dispersion you just reduced the perimeter by 10% but the area that the shells can land has decreased exponentially. This is such a massive buff for long-range ships. IT'S INSANE.

Just for the record, I'm pretty darn upset with this rework as well, and have been advocating for the restoration of secondaries accuracy, as the hit rates are just wayyyy too low to be reliable sources of supplementary damage. In addition, I know how powerful Dead Eye is, -10% dispersion buff is NOT a small change. Although I'd argue that the 2nd real problem with Dead Eye (aside from that ridiculous -10% dispersion buff) is the condition that pushes everyone back in order to use Dead Eye. It's promoting sniper gameplay for virtually all BBs now. so that skill NEEDS changing, and most likely nerfing. But don't let it get to you, Ok? Take a break from the game if you feel you need to, though. I know I've taken a few breaks myself : )

However, you were talking about Dead Eye's function towards max vertical and horizontal dispersion. This actually begs the question. Since Deadeye decreases both the maximum vertical and horizontal dispersion for main battery shells, what if we look at it vice versa?

Basically, does expanding secondaries dispersion (in this case +25% more dispersion for secondaries builds using Improved Secondary Battery Aiming vs. the original Manual Secondaries) apply both vertically and horizontally as well, and thereby resulting in an exponentially wider area for secondary shots to be fired at and therefore miss more? It would actually explain the rather large hit rate drops I'm seeing for secondaries across the board, given the inherently greater dispersion due to Improved Secondary Battery Aiming only having a -35% buff vs the old -60% buff . It also explains why dispersion buffs are just so darn important for both main battery AND secondaries!!!

Edited by SaiIor_Moon
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25 minutes ago, Rouxi said:

That's nice but the maps are a little small for BB to be so accurate at long range. Then when you add in many cruisers having significantly less range than BB you run into a problem.

But cruisers should even be getting near BBs.  

 

Regarding some IOWA tests in 1987, "... fifteen shells were fired from 34,000 yards (31,900 m), five from the right gun of each turret. The pattern size was 220 yards (200 m), 0.64% of the total range. 14 out of the 15 landed within 250 yards (230 m) of the center of the pattern and 8 were within 150 yards (140 m). Shell-to-shell dispersion was 123 yards (112 m), 0.36% of total range."

 

Granted the tests were in 1987, but it's still WW2 guns with WW2 ammo.

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9 minutes ago, Farm_Fresh_Eggs said:

But cruisers should even be getting near BBs. 

Tell that to WG's match maker.

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10 minutes ago, Farm_Fresh_Eggs said:

But cruisers should even be getting near BBs.  

 

Regarding some IOWA tests in 1987, "... fifteen shells were fired from 34,000 yards (31,900 m), five from the right gun of each turret. The pattern size was 220 yards (200 m), 0.64% of the total range. 14 out of the 15 landed within 250 yards (230 m) of the center of the pattern and 8 were within 150 yards (140 m). Shell-to-shell dispersion was 123 yards (112 m), 0.36% of total range."

 

Granted the tests were in 1987, but it's still WW2 guns with WW2 ammo.

The problem with accuracy then was never the guns, but the range finding.

There is no range finding problem in the game, so it's compensated for.

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51 minutes ago, Farm_Fresh_Eggs said:

I like dead eye.  BB's were a helluva lot more accurate than they are portrayed in game.   It's nice being a threat at long range as BBs should be.

Problem is, it's too strong. Cruisers play typically requires BBs to push in while using their maneuverability to avoid most of the return fire. Well Dead eye pretty much ruins all of that. BBs aren't pushing in as much and can still wreck cruisers while sitting outside of return fire range. There isn't much counter play other than hopping into a BB yourself and leaving your cruisers to rust.

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1 hour ago, Awe5ome said:

Over the past 2 years I've played this game I've had a lot of fun moments, that being said there were moments that I hated this game. When WG rolled out the CV rework I quit the game for over a month, but other than that I've played this game every single day. I've spent more money on this game than I have spent on any other game, and I love this community. I want nothing but the best for this game and generally am not one to rage at WG for a decision that I felt was ridiculous. I've contributed to this community with premium ship reviews (albeit poorly written reviews) and have made compilations of this game. I started a clan and have helped a bunch of new players learn the game and become better at it. I honestly couldn't be prouder to say that I support this game and community, back in 2017 when hurricane Harvey hit USS Texas we raised $281,000 and we've probably impacted the lives of many through WG support of "Save the Children" and "Wounded Warrior Project". I don't want to give up this game, and I don't want to see it become a pay-to-win game, or see the core community abandon it. However, the lack of thought that has gone into this update is insane. CC's were warning about this happening, the player base was saying don't give us more HE spam and don't bring in deadeye.

Yet here we are.

I don't get it, why? Why would you guys shoot yourselves in the foot and then insist everything is fine? If you've played this game you know it's not fine. Old players who left are just happier that they quit. And here we stand, left with what was once the best Naval MMO you could get. I genuinely want to know WG, did you not hear our concerns or did you just not care? Are you actively ignoring any feedback that isn't exactly what you want to hear? And are you not playing your own game?

When the rework was first announced I thought "huh, cool! It be nice to see some of the old outdated skills get replaced with newer more effective ones." And you know what? Some of these changes I like, for example, a secondary build costs 10 skill points instead of 14. I can have a different captain builds on different classes. And I guess the 21 skill point cap is a cool change over the previous 19. But when we consider the pros and cons of this update I find myself with a lot more cons than pros.

CONS

- Deadeye, this single skill is the dumbest thing in this entire update. Because it appears as though you guys forgot something about circles, circles have the smallest perimeter to their area. This holds true even when talking of eclipses, and since deadeye decreases the maximum dispersion of both horizontal and vertical dispersion you just reduced the perimeter by 10% but the area that the shells can land has decreased exponentially. This is such a massive buff for long-range ships. IT'S INSANE.

 

You know what? I just realized that I'm putting a lot of work into something that very few people will see, fewer people will care, those who do care are in the same boat as myself and WarGaming will continue doing whatever they want so there's no point in me writing this out. Besides, I've given well thought out feedback before and never once received a message from a human saying "We'll consider it" or "No we're not doing that". On top of that, the mods will lock this thread, HapaFodder will write a company-issued statement about "caring for this community" and "we're looking at the numbers" before locking the thread himself. Or he'll just outright delete this and give me a permanent forum ban for all this. I'm just so sick of this. So I'll end with this, WG if you're reading this, take away deadeye, give us back the old system and actually listen to what we're saying. I'm not going to issue a warning about the community abandoning you, or say that you're driving committed players like myself away, but I will say that that this past year has been heart-breaking, depressing and I didn't need you to fix something that wasn't broken by blowing it up with a 16" gun. I'm done, feel free to delete this.

Check out mouse’s post, deadeye us useless. It has no noticeable effect on dispersion. It’s just a 4 point troll for numpties who alreadyliked to hide in the back.

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3 minutes ago, monpetitloup said:

Check out mouse’s post, deadeye us useless. It has no noticeable effect on dispersion. It’s just a 4 point troll for numpties who alreadyliked to hide in the back.

Pretty sure that was the dazzle skill.

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6 minutes ago, Kevik70 said:

 

Pretty sure that was the dazzle skill.

Wrong. Roma with/without deadeye.

 

Edited by monpetitloup
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15 minutes ago, Farm_Fresh_Eggs said:

But cruisers should even be getting near BBs.  

 

Regarding some IOWA tests in 1987, "... fifteen shells were fired from 34,000 yards (31,900 m), five from the right gun of each turret. The pattern size was 220 yards (200 m), 0.64% of the total range. 14 out of the 15 landed within 250 yards (230 m) of the center of the pattern and 8 were within 150 yards (140 m). Shell-to-shell dispersion was 123 yards (112 m), 0.36% of total range."

 

Granted the tests were in 1987, but it's still WW2 guns with WW2 ammo.

don't  compare rl with game, that's silly.

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26 minutes ago, Farm_Fresh_Eggs said:

But cruisers should even be getting near BBs.  

 

Regarding some IOWA tests in 1987, "... fifteen shells were fired from 34,000 yards (31,900 m), five from the right gun of each turret. The pattern size was 220 yards (200 m), 0.64% of the total range. 14 out of the 15 landed within 250 yards (230 m) of the center of the pattern and 8 were within 150 yards (140 m). Shell-to-shell dispersion was 123 yards (112 m), 0.36% of total range."

 

Granted the tests were in 1987, but it's still WW2 guns with WW2 ammo.

Actual battleships were historically FAR less accurate than in game during the time period. Not because of the guns but the range finding. 1987 technology for targeting is a massive difference from 45 years prior.

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5 minutes ago, monpetitloup said:

Wrong. Roma with/without deadeye.

 

You mean this page where she literally made no comment of whether dead-eye was good or not? 

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8 minutes ago, Kebobs22 said:

Actual battleships were historically FAR less accurate than in game during the time period. Not because of the guns but the range finding. 1987 technology for targeting is a massive difference from 45 years prior.

Turns out, hitting moving targets from a moving platform is quite challenging.

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1 hour ago, Farm_Fresh_Eggs said:

I like dead eye.  BB's were a helluva lot more accurate than they are portrayed in game.   It's nice being a threat at long range as BBs should be.

BB's were always a threat at long range.  That is a fact with (or without) deadeye.  Just needed more shots to get the same effect.

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3 minutes ago, Kevik70 said:

You mean this page where she literally made no comment of whether dead-eye was good or not? 

Yes. Look at the dots and see for yourself.

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7 minutes ago, monpetitloup said:

Yes. Look at the dots and see for yourself.

Looked better to me, like alot better. Plus that's only at 15km, pretty sure the difference is alot more noticeable the farther out you get.

Edit: It's like you're getting the same dispersion as if you were sitting 2-3km closer than you are. 

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33 minutes ago, Kebobs22 said:

Actual battleships were historically FAR less accurate than in game during the time period. Not because of the guns but the range finding. 1987 technology for targeting is a massive difference from 45 years prior.

I thought we were discussing dispersion; not range finding.   

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51 minutes ago, Pulicat said:

The problem with accuracy then was never the guns, but the range finding.

There is no range finding problem in the game, so it's compensated for.

Deadeye is dispersion; not a tange finding issue.

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39 minutes ago, Kevik70 said:

Looked better to me, like alot better. Plus that's only at 15km, pretty sure the difference is alot more noticeable the farther out you get.

Edit: It's like you're getting the same dispersion as if you were sitting 2-3km closer than you are. 

For me the center of the ellipses look the same, and that’s what i would think where most of the shots would go. Ther is to me minor improvement on the border, but as a whole this doesn’t seem to merit the complete change in playstle we are seeing in the majority of the playerbase, ie stay at range at all costs and run from anything approaching 18km of their ship.

ostensibly improved dispersion, but not to the point of altering gameplay. Remember prior to this max range dev strikes already appeared once every game or two at least.

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16 minutes ago, Farm_Fresh_Eggs said:

I thought we were discussing dispersion; not range finding.   

Someone earlier said that naval guns in the real world themselves had a relatively low dispersion and therefore were accurate. But someone else brought up the point that just because those guns could land on target doesn't mean that they did and the reason they didn't was because at the time, ships didn't have to tools to properly aim that shot at the time.

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4 minutes ago, monpetitloup said:

For me the center of the ellipses look the same, and that’s what i would think where most of the shots would go. Ther is to me minor improvement on the border, but as a whole this doesn’t seem to merit the complete change in playstle we are seeing in the majority of the playerbase, ie stay at range at all costs and run from anything approaching 18km of their ship.

ostensibly improved dispersion, but not to the point of altering gameplay. Remember prior to this max range dev strikes already appeared once every game or two at least.

It doesn't look like much but it means a BB can sit just a little farther back and enjoy the same level of dispersion they would have had they moved up 2-3 kilometers. It's just enough to keep them safe from alot of cruiser HE spam as well as DD torps. 

You also have to remember that most of the skills are kinda garbage. I'm not really losing out on any really important skills if I take dead-eye. Extra Heal? Don't need it as much if I sit in the back. Fire-Prevention? Same reason. Close-Quarters Specialist or Improved Secondary's? Not on a sniper build. That just leaves Concealment Expert and 21 points is more than enough to grab it and Dead-eye.

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30 minutes ago, Kevik70 said:

It doesn't look like much but it means a BB can sit just a little farther back and enjoy the same level of dispersion they would have had they moved up 2-3 kilometers. It's just enough to keep them safe from alot of cruiser HE spam as well as DD torps. 

You also have to remember that most of the skills are kinda garbage. I'm not really losing out on any really important skills if I take dead-eye. Extra Heal? Don't need it as much if I sit in the back. Fire-Prevention? Same reason. Close-Quarters Specialist or Improved Secondary's? Not on a sniper build. That just leaves Concealment Expert and 21 points is more than enough to grab it and Dead-eye.

Not only this, but an added issue in high tiers is how well this skill meshes with Thunderer and HE. HE doesn't need any aiming skills as it's not reliant on angles like AP, in the case of Thunderer has ridiculous penetration and fire chance, and as you said, getting the same dispersion as 2-3km closer makes all the difference when it comes to cruisers, especially tier VII+VIII ones that lack Upgrades to boost the range.

Edited by warheart1992

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2 hours ago, SaiIor_Moon said:

Just for the record, I'm pretty darn upset with this rework as well, and have been advocating for the restoration of secondaries accuracy, as the hit rates are just wayyyy too low to be reliable sources of supplementary damage. In addition, I know how powerful Dead Eye is, -10% dispersion buff is NOT a small change. Although I'd argue that the 2nd real problem with Dead Eye (aside from that ridiculous -10% dispersion buff) is the condition that pushes everyone back in order to use Dead Eye. It's promoting sniper gameplay for virtually all BBs now. so that skill NEEDS changing, and most likely nerfing. But don't let it get to you, Ok? Take a break from the game if you feel you need to, though. I know I've taken a few breaks myself : )

However, you were talking about Dead Eye's function towards max vertical and horizontal dispersion. This actually begs the question. Since Deadeye decreases both the maximum vertical and horizontal dispersion for main battery shells, what if we look at it vice versa?

Basically, does expanding secondaries dispersion (in this case +25% more dispersion for secondaries builds using Improved Secondary Battery Aiming vs. the original Manual Secondaries) apply both vertically and horizontally as well, and thereby resulting in an exponentially wider area for secondary shots to be fired at and therefore miss more? It would actually explain the rather large hit rate drops I'm seeing for secondaries across the board, given the inherently greater dispersion due to Improved Secondary Battery Aiming only having a -35% buff vs the old -60% buff . It also explains why dispersion buffs are just so darn important for both main battery AND secondaries!!!

Yes. That is how it works and the trolls on that other thread wouldn't concede, until the mods stepped in their favor, probably to protect this massive screw up. It affects both the axis, making the area where the shots can land significantly larger than 10% (for the now buffed KMS).

If you secondaries had a significant good sigma, that in itself wouldn't be such a big problem, but secondaries have 1.0 sigma, making the shots spread even more over that area.

That is what people aren't understand or refusing to accept to protect their preconceived narrative. I doubt even the devs had this in mind when they made the rebork.

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