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Gemlin

Captain Rework = Made COOP more fun to play

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I remember back before patch, people complained about DD and Cruiser HE Spam. (Mainly BB players). Isn't it funny those same BB players are now spec'd Deadeye and are now the ones sitting back HE Spamming all the ships in the game?

 

The captain rework has done the following :
 

In Randoms:

Destroyed Secondary Build Battleships

Destroyed Cruiser Play as ships sit 20+km away and if you get detected by a CV or DD, you get focused fired by all the Deadeye BB's to death.

Destroyed *ANY* Mid map game play ships. Again Deadeye spec'd BB's sitting in the rear just waiting for this to light up their guns.

You really unbalanced cruisers. You made them so they can't have a survivabilty build, yet you make us fight Deadeye BB's WITH FULL Survivability Builds. Yeah, you made BB's even harder to damage, yet you made cruisers easier.

The only cruisers worth playing now, they got to have smoke.

Made the Thunderer the "KING" of the battlefield. I can't think of a game recently there weren't at LEAST 4 of these in the game. Heck I had multiple games with 8 of these things in the game (4 per side).

 

In COOP:

Secondary BB's are fun, because BOT BB's don't sit at 20km and fight

Mid Map gameplay is fun, as bots move up and don't camp

Cruisers can actually get to the fight as the *4-5* Thunderer's per side don't HE you to death.

Even the Flint (which you nerfed to heck) can be played in Coop and has a sense of fun.

 

 

My suggestion is that you Nerf Dead Eye ASAP. I have no desire to spend any money in this game anymore. You've made the random mode so Toxic now I'd rather fight last years version of the Smolensk and Colbert (Full team) than the sit at the back line meta of the Thunderer's.

 

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At least for cruisers, Co-op is less fun, IMO. 

Bots are super-aggressive, close ranges quickly, and shoot more accurately than many human players.  A ship like Flint losing 2km off its engagement range and a chunk off its ROF hurts its ability to engage from smoke and its ability to wear down the bots as they close.   The supercruisers losing PM, BOS, etc makes them far less able to engage the bots at the range the bots push to.  

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17 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

At least for cruisers, Co-op is less fun, IMO. 

Bots are super-aggressive, close ranges quickly, and shoot more accurately than many human players.  A ship like Flint losing 2km off its engagement range and a chunk off its ROF hurts its ability to engage from smoke and its ability to wear down the bots as they close.   The supercruisers losing PM, BOS, etc makes them far less able to engage the bots at the range the bots push to.  

I tend to agree that cruiser play has become more challenging.  There seem to be a lot more players hanging back because of "dead eye."  Dead eye doesn't really work in co-op because the bots are always charging forward making the usefulness of dead eye really short-lived.  So, if you are playing a cruiser you are getting focus-fired for a longer period of time.  

Secondary battleships lost damage from decreased accuracy and range.  The one benefit is if you max out your secondary range and close quarter combat.  This decreases your reload time which helps to offset the decreased damage from your secondaries.

Destroyer play seems to be about the same.

 

 

Edited by HamptonRoads

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For me, it is mixed. I like the new manual secondaries because I want my secondaries on the other side of the ship firing even though I have a target selected for the primary side.

I dislike the Greased Gears nerf to the mid tier/old era BBs and cruisers. It makes them really painful to play and I had to sacrifice range through module changes to make up for the nerfed turret rotation.

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2 minutes ago, HamptonRoads said:

I tend to agree that cruiser play has become more challenging.  There seem to be a lot more players hanging back because of "dead eye."  Dead eye doesn't really work in co-op because the bots are always charging forward making the usefulness of dead eye really short-lived.  So, if you are playing a cruiser you are getting focus-fired for a longer period of time.  

Having tested it myself, Dead-Eye in co-op is only useful at either the very start of a match or in the very late stages IF you've managed to clear a whole side of the map of bots, other than that, it's a waste of time and only encourages people to play passively.

One thing I did notice for sure in co-op is that secondaries are now so inaccurate that you have to close to suicide range to get hits with them, and at suicide range, even without the captain skill that gives the accuracy buff, you still get just as many hits. Tested that fairly extensively yesterday trying to train up my Wujing captain and comparing to my 19pt captained Alsace, both with otherwise identical setups, the only difference was Wujing lacked the accuracy skill and the one that cuts secondary reload by 10% and main guns by the same when enemies are in 2ndary range. I'd say the secondary build ships in my fleet that took the biggest hits were Yamato, Izumo, Musashi, Shikishima, Georgia, Massachusetts, and Republique, they all relied more on precision as they either had low barrel counts, low rates of fire, or low per-shot damage output. Alsace and Wujing seem to get away with it ok simply because or how fast those French 100mm's are and the # of fires they set, though the degradation is still noticeable.

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6 minutes ago, CaptHarlock_222 said:

Having tested it myself, Dead-Eye in co-op is only useful at either the very start of a match or in the very late stages IF you've managed to clear a whole side of the map of bots, other than that, it's a waste of time and only encourages people to play passively.

One thing I did notice for sure in co-op is that secondaries are now so inaccurate that you have to close to suicide range to get hits with them, and at suicide range, even without the captain skill that gives the accuracy buff, you still get just as many hits. Tested that fairly extensively yesterday trying to train up my Wujing captain and comparing to my 19pt captained Alsace, both with otherwise identical setups, the only difference was Wujing lacked the accuracy skill and the one that cuts secondary reload by 10% and main guns by the same when enemies are in 2ndary range. I'd say the secondary build ships in my fleet that took the biggest hits were Yamato, Izumo, Musashi, Shikishima, Georgia, Massachusetts, and Republique, they all relied more on precision as they either had low barrel counts, low rates of fire, or low per-shot damage output. Alsace and Wujing seem to get away with it ok simply because or how fast those French 100mm's are and the # of fires they set, though the degradation is still noticeable.

German battleships with secondary spec still can hit targets at 11+kms.  The real advantage is decreasing your reload time for your main guns.

But overall, most of the secondary builds were nerfed by the new skills system.

Edited by HamptonRoads

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There also seem to be a lot more players in Coop since the rework. More games with no green bots at all. Which is unfortunate as I like having a few green bots to make the game interesting as opposed to the "Mine, Mine, MINE" race to grab damage/kills..

Some of this is obviously due to players trying to quickly check out skill builds. Not sure if builds that work in coop will translate to randoms. 

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Anything is fun in co-op... The expectations are so low... All you have to do is sail a ship and you're the king of co-op.

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The Skill Rework hasn't made it any better in Co-Op.

Matter of fact, the Brawling Battleships and their secondaries were better in the old system.  Old Secondary Spec with Old Manual Secondaries hit a lot more.  I was very amused testing my new system Ohio secondaries (y'know, one of those ships that have extra secondary accuracy built in) complete with ISBA barely scratch a Bot Ibuki that casually sailed by at 6km.

The Skill Rework stripped choices away despite saying they were giving it.

The Skill Rework limited access to skills because of the ships you play.

The Skill Rework chopped up several skills into multiple ones, which in the end, makes it even more expensive to replicate past builds (Super Intendent for BBs, old school Jack of All Trades).

The Skill Rework made some skills more expensive despite offering the exact same benefits as they did before (Priority Target).

 

It's been nothing but one big pile of negatives.

There's been no good from this Rebork.  The only thing it really is, is trying to recover from this disaster, trying to make a Dollar out of 15 cents.

53 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

There also seem to be a lot more players in Coop since the rework. More games with no green bots at all. Which is unfortunate as I like having a few green bots to make the game interesting as opposed to the "Mine, Mine, MINE" race to grab damage/kills..

Some of this is obviously due to players trying to quickly check out skill builds. Not sure if builds that work in coop will translate to randoms. 

There's only more players in Co-Op because there's still stuff like Dockyard Missions going on, a lot of which is easier to do in Co-Op.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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1 hour ago, KilljoyCutter said:

At least for cruisers, Co-op is less fun, IMO. 

Bots are super-aggressive, close ranges quickly, and shoot more accurately than many human players.  A ship like Flint losing 2km off its engagement range and a chunk off its ROF hurts its ability to engage from smoke and its ability to wear down the bots as they close.   The supercruisers losing PM, BOS, etc makes them far less able to engage the bots at the range the bots push to.  

I have to disagree, to a degree.

I don't think that skill rework has affected  coop game play in the slightest, because you really don't need captain's skills to win constantly in coop.  Coop bots are so bad that they can be steam rolled by a team of 0 skill point commanders.

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5 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The Skill Rework stripped choices away despite saying they were giving it.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

I think that it tried to create more choice.  However, with cruisers, it was incapable of doing so because there are so many variants of cruisers that it became impossible to do so, since there are only so many skill slots to work with.  Heck, I think that even for regular heavy cruisers, they largely failed  because (IMO) they wasted 3 of those skill slots on torpedoes, as well as created skills that are pretty bad, like Outnumbered.  Add to that the Heavy HE/SAP Shells skill which is aimed at ultra light cruisers (i.e. those with DD sized main guns),  which is far from optimal for regular CLs, CAs, or CBs (i.e. large cruisers aka super-cruisers), due to the heavy concealment penalty.

On top of this, the fact that some ship types and ships still have nearly required skill builds, such as most DDs needing Last Stand, Survivability Expert, and Concealment Expert for starters.  It's hard to develop true variety in skill builds when roughly half of your skill points are already spoken for.

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9 hours ago, HamptonRoads said:

German battleships with secondary spec still can hit targets at 11+kms.  The real advantage is decreasing your reload time for your main guns.

True, but the majority of my secondary build ships are not German, most are either French or Japanese, the Germans are at most, a third of my secondary builds. People (and WG themselves it seems) tend to forget that before the Germans were even in the game, the IJN BBs were the secondary build champions, even if they weren't intended to be. It seems that taking the threat of torpedo equipped small ships seriously tends to lead to designing battleships with very heavy secondary batteries.

Edited by CaptHarlock_222

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It is funny to see so many former random players entering the "Baby Mode", "Beginners Mode" "Bot Mode" What ever you used to call it.

All this because WG changed to goal posts once again.

Please if you used to play Randoms go back the changes will never change.

WG writes its code in stone, never to be altered.

Sure your Stats will never rise or fall in Co-OP that doesn't change, but your Bragging rights go out the window once you come to Co-Op.

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5 minutes ago, Nikolay_Kuznetsov_ said:

It is funny to see so many former random players entering the "Baby Mode", "Beginners Mode" "Bot Mode" What ever you used to call it.

All this because WG changed to goal posts once again.

Please if you used to play Randoms go back the changes will never change.

WG writes its code in stone, never to be altered.

Sure your Stats will never rise or fall in Co-OP that doesn't change, but your Bragging rights go out the window once you come to Co-Op.

Let people play what they want. No need for that nonsense. 

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12 minutes ago, Nikolay_Kuznetsov_ said:

Your Funny

*You're.

Also, I don't think those of us who now play mostly in PVE modes care too much about what you think of it. I've been around since the alpha and the general trend over the last 5 years has been steady decline in quality of gameplay. This was once the crown jewel of Wargaming's trilogy, but the design decisions over the last few years, really since the British battleships got put in, have been more and more ridiculous. Worse, they refuse to take responsibility for it.

I'll wander into randoms once in a while, but I rarely stay for long, even at the mid-tiers. High-tier random in particular is boring and stale and passive and it sucks. Co-op is actually FUN because you can mess around with sub-optimal builds and still blow things up and not have to worry about getting HE'd for 15k plus two or three fires by a Thunderer from halfway across the map because you dared get within 24km.

I'm far more interested in odd-tier ranked than in randoms, but they rarely put on odd-tier ranked these days. Gee, I wonder why.

--Helms

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If I wasn't grinding the Honorable Service campaign, I'd be spending a lot more time in Co-op.  :-)

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