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Edgecase

Spitball: Replacing Outnumbered

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So anyone who's tried the various Cruiser commander skills in 0.10.0 has probably noticed that Outnumbered is a terrible skill due to the extremely inconsistent activation condition (more visible enemies than friendlies within your main battery range). Unless your team is dead AND the enemy team is still lit somehow, that just doesn't happen. And if it does, you get some speed and main battery dispersion -- most cruisers honestly don't need main battery dispersion. This skill probably needs to be reworked, at minimum.

But it could also just be replaced. If WG wants a cruiser skill for weird play with complex activation conditions, how about:


Indistinct: +15% dispersion of ships firing at you with a main battery caliber of greater than 283mm, who are outside your main battery range.


What's it do? Basically negates Deadeye if you can't shoot back, but does nothing if you can. It lets shorter-ranged (and lower tier) cruisers not get obliterated by BBs before they can even play the game, while NOT providing a buff to long-range firespammers. In effect, it lets cruisers position better by lowering the impact of long-range BB fire.

Not spicy enough? Add: -10% to your main battery range. Now there's a bigger zone where the bonus applies. This gets especially interesting around mid-range, where some cruisers can both negate an enemy's Deadeye AND stack this penalty on top of it... but still not shoot back. Again, especially in the mid-tiers and with shorter-ranged cruisers. But the bonus isn't free, since enemy cruisers will basically never suffer the penalty, and you'll just have shorter range against them.

I can't honestly say I have any idea whether WG plans to do major talent swaps, but if (or when) they get around to it, I'd definitely like to see some defensive and positioning-minded options like this added.

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7 minutes ago, Edgecase said:

So anyone who's tried the various Cruiser commander skills in 0.10.0 has probably noticed that Outnumbered is a terrible skill due to the extremely inconsistent activation condition (more visible enemies than friendlies within your main battery range). Unless your team is dead AND the enemy team is still lit somehow, that just doesn't happen. And if it does, you get some speed and main battery dispersion -- most cruisers honestly don't need main battery dispersion. This skill probably needs to be reworked, at minimum.

But it could also just be replaced. If WG wants a cruiser skill for weird play with complex activation conditions, how about:


Indistinct: +15% dispersion of ships firing at you with a main battery caliber of greater than 283mm, who are outside your main battery range.


What's it do? Basically negates Deadeye if you can't shoot back, but does nothing if you can. It lets shorter-ranged (and lower tier) cruisers not get obliterated by BBs before they can even play the game, while NOT providing a buff to long-range firespammers. In effect, it lets cruisers position better by lowering the impact of long-range BB fire.

Not spicy enough? Add: -10% to your main battery range. Now there's a bigger zone where the bonus applies. This gets especially interesting around mid-range, where some cruisers can both negate an enemy's Deadeye AND stack this penalty on top of it... but still not shoot back. Again, especially in the mid-tiers and with shorter-ranged cruisers. But the bonus isn't free, since enemy cruisers will basically never suffer the penalty, and you'll just have shorter range against them.

I can't honestly say I have any idea whether WG plans to do major talent swaps, but if (or when) they get around to it, I'd definitely like to see some defensive and positioning-minded options like this added.

1) I like the specifics of your idea, but to me it seems that having conditional-based skills is just a poor solution in general. Balancing becomes just that much harder, and it’s not like WG is anywhere near the skill of the old Blizzard in this regard.

2) I’m not sure about major talent swaps, but I’d very surprised if we don’t start seeing a series of micro adjustments after a couple of patch cycles. I’m definitely going to reset all my commanders again before the grace period is over (btw, when does it end?)

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Looks interesting, tho still not sold on skills with conditional activation. Very much prefer a trade-off.

I would love to have a skill to improve rudder and turning circle for cruisers.

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8 minutes ago, vak_ said:

1) I like the specifics of your idea, but to me it seems that having conditional-based skills is just a poor solution in general. Balancing becomes just that much harder, and it’s not like WG is anywhere near the skill of the old Blizzard in this regard.

I don't disagree, but the design direction they've picked is clear. They want to create viable alternatives to the old standard CE build, which promote different kinds of play, and these complex activation conditions are where they've landed. I tried to work with that.

8 minutes ago, vak_ said:

2) I’m not sure about major talent swaps, but I’d very surprised if we don’t start seeing a series of micro adjustments after a couple of patch cycles. I’m definitely going to reset all my commanders again before the grace period is over (btw, when does it end?)

I'm pretty sure the button only works once per account, you'll have to manually re-reset them if you've already done the account-wide wipe.

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1 minute ago, vikingno2 said:

What's your take on Top Grade Gunner?

TGG is da best.  Any radar cruiser should have it.  Yes there's the other meme with boosting your detection range via heavy HE and SAP, but TGG on its own is a great investment for anything with a radar (as it will by default be activated during your radar since something is lit within your detection range) and will also help for a lot of the around islands / cap spammy type boats.  Less valuable on the kitey bois. 

Outnumbered's issue is the fact the activation conditions are absurdly difficult to meet, and then once you do the actual bonuses are kinda lame. 

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Outnumbered also is a DOA skill thanks to the hit survivability builds took. Since it is such a relatively crappy skill, I don’t bother with it. CQC is a skill I would like to take, but if the conditional skill was rather than a 10% reload boost, a 10% turret rotation boost as that makes more sense for a skill that is named Close Quarters Combat.

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4 minutes ago, Edgecase said:

I'm pretty sure the button only works once per account, you'll have to manually re-reset them if you've already done the account-wide wipe.

Oh flak, you are right... just tested it right now and nope.

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3 minutes ago, vikingno2 said:

What's your take on Top Grade Gunner?

It's an okay skill that has strong intentional synergy with the "Heavy HE and SAP Shells" talent right above it on the skill screen (that one gives you more alpha damage but makes your detection worse). Works particularly well with the Italian cruisers, as the combo provides basically a straight-up +10% damage buff (heavy shells) stacked on top of an 8% haste that activates out to over 14km.

As Toxic said above also, it's particularly nice on radar cruisers, as their detection tends to be very close to their radar range, so it'll kick in any time you manage to radar somebody.

1 minute ago, ArIskandir said:

I would love to have a skill to improve rudder and turning circle for cruisers.

No commander skills seem to touch any of the "physics" characteristics of the ships. There are no skills that change shell ballistics, for example, or armor thickness. So I don't think they're likely to go for something like that.

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4 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Oh flak, you are right... just tested it right now and nope.

Oh no :(

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2 minutes ago, Edgecase said:

No commander skills seem to touch any of the "physics" characteristics of the ships

Wouldn't reload or concealment classify as "physics"?. I'm going by the rule that if there's a module related to the characteristic, it could also have a skill. But as you say, there's no apparent interest in improving maneuverability. 

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1 hour ago, vak_ said:

1) I like the specifics of your idea, but to me it seems that having conditional-based skills is just a poor solution in general. Balancing becomes just that much harder, and it’s not like WG is anywhere near the skill of the old Blizzard in this regard.

2) I’m not sure about major talent swaps, but I’d very surprised if we don’t start seeing a series of micro adjustments after a couple of patch cycles. I’m definitely going to reset all my commanders again before the grace period is over (btw, when does it end?)

Feb 17th

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1 hour ago, vikingno2 said:

What's your take on Top Grade Gunner?

My issue with TGG is that the primary benefit of -8% to main battery reload time is pathetically low.  IMO, it'd need to be about double what it currently is to get my attention.

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28 minutes ago, Nikolay_Kuznetsov_ said:

Feb 17th

The free manual resets goes until the 17th, but the reset all button is only active until the morning of the 15th. 

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1 hour ago, Edgecase said:

It's an okay skill that has strong intentional synergy with the "Heavy HE and SAP Shells" talent right above it on the skill screen (that one gives you more alpha damage but makes your detection worse). Works particularly well with the Italian cruisers, as the combo provides basically a straight-up +10% damage buff (heavy shells) stacked on top of an 8% haste that activates out to over 14km.

As Toxic said above also, it's particularly nice on radar cruisers, as their detection tends to be very close to their radar range, so it'll kick in any time you manage to radar somebody.

No commander skills seem to touch any of the "physics" characteristics of the ships. There are no skills that change shell ballistics, for example, or armor thickness. So I don't think they're likely to go for something like that.

Edge, I thought that the "standard detection range" trigger in the skills was whatever your current detection range happens to me.  If you don't have a gun bloom penalty active, your "SDR" will be equal to your concealment range.  But once you fire, your SDR would bloom out to max gun range.  I could be wrong about this, but this is how I understood @Hapa_Fodder 's description of "standard detection range" in a post last week, IIRC.

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2 hours ago, Edgecase said:

So anyone who's tried the various Cruiser commander skills in 0.10.0 has probably noticed that Outnumbered is a terrible skill due to the extremely inconsistent activation condition (more visible enemies than friendlies within your main battery range). Unless your team is dead AND the enemy team is still lit somehow, that just doesn't happen. And if it does, you get some speed and main battery dispersion -- most cruisers honestly don't need main battery dispersion. This skill probably needs to be reworked, at minimum.

But it could also just be replaced. If WG wants a cruiser skill for weird play with complex activation conditions, how about:


Indistinct: +15% dispersion of ships firing at you with a main battery caliber of greater than 283mm, who are outside your main battery range.


What's it do? Basically negates Deadeye if you can't shoot back, but does nothing if you can. It lets shorter-ranged (and lower tier) cruisers not get obliterated by BBs before they can even play the game, while NOT providing a buff to long-range firespammers. In effect, it lets cruisers position better by lowering the impact of long-range BB fire.

Not spicy enough? Add: -10% to your main battery range. Now there's a bigger zone where the bonus applies. This gets especially interesting around mid-range, where some cruisers can both negate an enemy's Deadeye AND stack this penalty on top of it... but still not shoot back. Again, especially in the mid-tiers and with shorter-ranged cruisers. But the bonus isn't free, since enemy cruisers will basically never suffer the penalty, and you'll just have shorter range against them.

I can't honestly say I have any idea whether WG plans to do major talent swaps, but if (or when) they get around to it, I'd definitely like to see some defensive and positioning-minded options like this added.

Thinking it is intended for ships that go w/a small group & meet heavy resistance at a cap on a flank...for quicker kiting away maneuvers w/better dispersion for resetting the cap.

Aka...for holding maneuvers as opposed to pushing maneuvers.

Edited by IfYouSeeKhaos

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7 minutes ago, MidnightPhoenix07 said:

The free manual resets goes until the 17th, but the reset all button is only active until the morning of the 15th. 

The usual thing with an event ending on Monday, and the update being on Wednesday?

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2 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Edge, I thought that the "standard detection range" trigger in the skills was whatever your current detection range happens to me.  If you don't have a gun bloom penalty active, your "SDR" will be equal to your concealment range.  But once you fire, your SDR would bloom out to max gun range.  I could be wrong about this, but this is how I understood @Hapa_Fodder 's description of "standard detection range" in a post last week, IIRC.

I believe in the wiki it said that standard detection range was your detection circle as soon as you enter battle (so commander skills, camos & upgrades apply)...but that no battle characteristics (gun bloom/cyclones/etc) effect it...

Which is why w/Deadeye you can send a single turret downrange to judge your aim before firing the rest w/out cancelling the skill even though your bloom range is across the map now.

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2 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

The usual thing with an event ending on Monday, and the update being on Wednesday?

Could be, although I don’t know if I’d consider the free respecs an ‘event.’ This is the first time we’ve gotten a reset all button that I can recall (the 6.0 rework just reset commanders and the free manual resets lasted the entire patch like this time), so that could be their reasoning behind the early end. 

Or it could be to force people to spend more money/resources if they miss the early end date in the article. 

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23 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Edge, I thought that the "standard detection range" trigger in the skills was whatever your current detection range happens to me.  If you don't have a gun bloom penalty active, your "SDR" will be equal to your concealment range.  But once you fire, your SDR would bloom out to max gun range.  I could be wrong about this, but this is how I understood @Hapa_Fodder 's description of "standard detection range" in a post last week, IIRC.

It's whatever concealment you brought into the match, i.e. without bloom from shooting, being on fire, or being in smoke. If any of those things is in effect, your current detection would be different, but the "standard" concealment range is still whatever you started with.

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I like this idea since there's a huge disparity in range between many CA and BB, especially in mid tier.

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you have to march to the enemy base to active it.  Because all the battleship are sitting 20km away and they will run if you get close to 19km.:cap_look:

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