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Deadeye and HE Spam are not the problem.

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Deadeye and HE Spam are not the reason that BBs hide in the back camping uselessely.  The reason that BBs hide in the back is because DD's and cruisers fail to screen and provide vision control. 

When DDs fail to provide vision control and screen BBs have no choice but to retreat or be sunk by a wall of torpedos they don't see coming until too late.  There is only so much evasive maneuvering a BB can do without exposing broadside to citadels, especially at higher tiers.  Torpedoes and Citadels are particularly harmful to BBs since it is damage that cannot be repaired very well.

Vision control is also essential to mitigating HE spam, since the only way to safely HE spam a BB is to be behind concealment or cover and have a team-mate spot.  Any cruiser trying to outfight a BB in direct LOS (with some exceptions) is at a severe disadvantage.  If a DD is maintaining vision control then it is a very simple thing for a BB to go dark and out-maneuver a CL camped behind an island, if the CL can be spotted the BB can also usually shoot back, to great effect.

Since the re-work, I have been playing BBs a lot.  I like to get aggressive and close with the enemy, and I have found it rather effective.  The biggest problem I have in my ability to close with, engage, and destroy the reds is not HE spam or Deadeye BBs.  The biggest problem is being hit by a bunch of torpedoes that were fired by an unspotted DD.

If you see me in a BB running to the rear, it is because the DDs have failed to maintain vision control, and I don't feel like dying to a wall of skill.  There is a reason that DDs and CVs are the most influential classes despite doing less damage, they dominate the spotting game.

 

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8 minutes ago, Danyir_Amore said:

Deadeye and HE Spam are not the reason that BBs hide in the back camping uselessely.  The reason that BBs hide in the back is because DD's and cruisers fail to screen and provide vision control.

When a BB doesn't focus on ships that are able to manipulate vision control such as Radar cruisers because they are too far back and can just focus snipe other BBs, why should a DD or a CA risk it's skin to provide said control? In addition keep in mind that spotting just doesn't pay well, whereas damage does.

The more you overextend in a BB the more you make it likely to give a DD or even CA an advantageous angle to torpedo you or pepper you with HE/AP.

Last, BBs currently have an Upgrade that improves their torpedo detection radius, one skill that further increases that radius and a skill that gives a flat percentage increase to torpedo damage mitigation. If you are facing issues with torpedoes it might be worth looking into those.

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4 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

When a BB doesn't focus on ships that are able to manipulate vision control such as Radar cruisers because they are too far back and can just focus snipe other BBs, why should a DD or a CA risk it's skin to provide said control? In addition keep in mind that spotting just doesn't pay well, whereas damage does.

Radar ships outspot BBs so BBs are dependent on DDs to spot them before they reach cover/concealment.  It is a problem that the game doesn't reward spotting that well but it still is the most important thing for winning games.  Also keep in mind that vision control is achieved not just by spotting but by destroying enemy DDs, which is actually more rewarding than farming a BB.

4 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

The more you overextend in a BB the more you make it likely to give a DD or even CA an advantageous angle to torpedo you or pepper you with HE/AP.

And overextension happens when your support fails to screen, hence why BBs sit in back and camp instead of pushing forward.

4 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

Last, BBs currently have an Upgrade that improves their torpedo detection radius, one skill that further increases that radius and a skill that gives a flat percentage increase to torpedo damage mitigation. If you are facing issues with torpedoes it might be worth looking into those.

taking that upgrade is in place of concealment upgrade which again makes you more dependent on others to maintain vision control.  The torpedo damage mitigation competes with other damage control skills and is frankly not that much of a mitigation, its only 10%, meanwhile there are skills providing greater torpedo damage increase.  This is also a much bigger problem at higher tiers as DDs get better conceal relative to the BBs and their torpedoes are greater in number, faster, and hit harder. whereas BBs are much bigger and less maneuverable targets.  If properly screened they aren't that big a threat, but when not screened and the DD is able to launch from 8-10km away with plenty of time to analyze course and wait for the opportune moment multiple hits are basically guaranteed.

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9 minutes ago, Danyir_Amore said:

Radar ships outspot BBs so BBs are dependent on DDs to spot them before they reach cover/concealment.

This is NOT a universal truth.  There are a good number of radar cruisers with worse concealment than some battleships.

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1 hour ago, Danyir_Amore said:

Deadeye and HE Spam are not the reason that BBs hide in the back camping uselessely.  The reason that BBs hide in the back is because DD's and cruisers fail to screen and provide vision control. 

Sorry big guy, I am in total disagreement with this statement... Blame the little DD for the lack of production of BBs, sorry.. I am not buying your selling argument.

Your narrative/conclusion can be viewed as to Anti-DD biased...

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Crucis said:

This is NOT a universal truth.  There are a good number of radar cruisers with worse concealment than some battleships.

This is called cherry picking, almost all radar cruisers out-spot all other BBs and even those few that don't out-spot all BBs still out-spot BBs in General, and by a lot.  Also those few that don't are generally the tanky ships that play more like BBs anyway.  Among tech tree ships I think the only radar cruiser that doesn't out-spot all BBs is the Moskva.

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Just now, Navalpride33 said:

Sorry big guy, I am in total disagreement with this statement... Blame the little DD for the lack of production of BBs, sorry.. I am not buying your selling argument.

Your narrative/conclusion can be viewed as to Anti-DD biased...

 

 

 

To this I would point out I have a 62% winrate over 69 battles in my Gearing.  Guess how I achieve that?

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19 minutes ago, Danyir_Amore said:

To this I would point out I have a 62% winrate over 69 battles in my Gearing.  Guess how I achieve that?

Math tells me, your "achievement" will settle at %50... Regardless of your tactics and ships used...

If there was a "proven" DD tactic, according to the laws of math... Your WR (overall) would be even further down, closer to the %49 which is the %90th percentile of WOWS population.

  • This is because everyone would replicate it in order to get a higher stats plateau.

IMO, not here to psycho-analyzes your stats on one ship... The math in WOWS haven't changed in years, it will not change in your case either... I have precedent  in pointing that out on a number of past threads on the topic...

I am  in disagreement to your theory DDs limit or negate BB's production... That is not the case at all. Especially At high tiers.

 

Edited by Navalpride33

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16 minutes ago, Danyir_Amore said:

This is called cherry picking, almost all radar cruisers out-spot all other BBs and even those few that don't out-spot all BBs still out-spot BBs in General, and by a lot.  Also those few that don't are generally the tanky ships that play more like BBs anyway.  Among tech tree ships I think the only radar cruiser that doesn't out-spot all BBs is the Moskva.

No, I wouldn't call it cherry picking at all.  Russian radar cruisers have generally bad concealment.  Some Russian cruiser concealments are worse than BB concealments, others are about the same, and some are better.  USN radar cruisers have generally good concealment.  Also, the Moskva is no longer a tech tree ship.  

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32 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

Math tells me, your "achievement" will settle at %50... Regardless of your tactics and ships used...

Yeah that's not how it works at all.  Otherwise good players wouldn't have upward trends.  Stats aren't everything, but when you look at a player that has worse stats lower in a line and progresses to purple by the end, showing significant and consistent improvement you might want to listen to them.  That's what I did and found it greatly improved my play.

32 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

If there was a "proven" DD tactic, according to the laws of math... Your WR (overall) would be even further down, closer to the %49 which is the %90th percentile of WOWS population.

  • This is because everyone would replicate it in order to get a higher stats plateau.

Again not how it works, this assumes that every player recognizes the proven tactic.  You seem to be implying that there are no proven tactics which is silly.

32 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

IMO, not here to psycho-analyzes your stats on one ship... The math in WOWS haven't changed in years, it will not change in your case either... I've precedent  in pointing that out on a number of threads on the topic...

I am  in disagreement to your theory DDs limit or negate BB production... That is not the case at all.

 

I mean this is coming from players much better than myself to be honest.  They are who I learned from.  This game is about positioning.  DDs and CVs have a disproportionate effect on positioning because they provide the intelligence that everyone else on the team needs to make their own decisions.  If a BB mispositions it primarily affects them, if a DD mispositions it affects everyone.

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52 minutes ago, Crucis said:

No, I wouldn't call it cherry picking at all.  Russian radar cruisers have generally bad concealment.  Some Russian cruiser concealments are worse than BB concealments, others are about the same, and some are better.  USN radar cruisers have generally good concealment.  Also, the Moskva is no longer a tech tree ship.  

 

You're right, the Moskva was replaced by the Nevsky I forgot since I got my Moskva before but same difference since.  Nevsky has the worst Russian cruiser conceal down to 12.8 I believe, so the only BBs with better concealment are the RN BBs which only barely beat it.  When expanded to all radar ships the list is Stalingrad, Moskva, and the Italian BB Roma which are all rare ships.  So yeah it's incredibly rare for a radar cruiser  to be out-spotted by a BB in a match.

That is exactly what cherry-picking is.  Picking the few BBs that out-spot a few cruisers and using that to declare that BBs aren't out-spotted by cruisers.

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3 hours ago, Danyir_Amore said:

Yeah that's not how it works at all.  Otherwise good players wouldn't have upward trends.  Stats aren't everything, but when you look at a player that has worse stats lower in a line and progresses to purple by the end, showing significant and consistent improvement you might want to listen to them.  That's what I did and found it greatly improved my play.

The deviation (or upward/downward trend) is very small almost not existent to prove anything you're selling... They do exist, just not to prove your original context of your thread. 

Nor do I recommend not listening to the math (since stats are not everything) but instead listen to your math/stats.. (highlighted in bold above)... 


My conclusion... Instead of twisting the post into a pretzel... Listen who you want to listen...

3 hours ago, Danyir_Amore said:

.  You seem to be implying that there are no proven tactics which is silly. Proven by math...

I am not implying anything... The Math analysis of WOWS (which as I stated in my previous post, haven't changed in years) concludes... Like this...

Whatever tactic you choose to apply, you will end up in the same statistical range or percentile as those who just play for fun.

In other words to drive the point, an AFK ship will win the same amount of % of matches over time as you, or using your DD tactic..

If you disagree with the rules of math... Take that up with Archimedes..


3 hours ago, Danyir_Amore said:

I mean this is coming from players much better than myself to be honest.  They are who I learned from.  This game is about positioning.<---Total agreement with you here, the Devs have stated its a position based game.   DDs and CVs have a disproportionate effect on positioning because they provide the intelligence that everyone???Cruiser only gun fodder now ???else on the team needs to make their own decisions.  If a BB mispositions it primarily affects them, if a DD mispositions it affects everyone.

No, the eyes of the BB have always been the cruisers... NOT the DDs...

The eyes of the fleet belongs to the CV...


DDs Have never use their spotting as an offensive tool(like a CV or cruiser)... Their spotting is more in the realm of monitoring or patrolling a specific area or quadrant... 

DDs spotting are more on the defensive side then an offensive tool.. Like a land mine, or a floating boobytrap, for incoming threats.

When a Fleet loses all their cruisers... BBs no longer can see anymore... Its at this point, the game is a formality, its over... Surviving DDs are not going to do anything productive to help BBs to see in that situation...


You have every right to defend your stance... All I am noting is

  1. the math (never changed so far... WIll see with the cpt rework for any deviation from past precedent).
  2. And, not using your cruisers as everyone else have done as the eyes of the BBs.. (which is IMO a cardinal sin)
Edited by Navalpride33

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Interesting reading the old heads talk about this; I'm new (6+ months) and have been combing the boards and videos for TTPs for all, specific class and specific tier of ships.  This discussion was very informative and while I have my own opinions, most of the how tos speak to using/following historical naval tactics of the day - DDs screen/spot; CAs provide cover for DDs and BBs, and BBs provide heavy arty support.

Oddly enough, if you look at ground battlefield tactics of the day they aren't much different - small, manuveable units (ships) out front to probe, spot and attack, howitzers further back and then the DIVARTY.

Good stuff, awesome game.

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2 hours ago, syberphule said:

Interesting reading the old heads talk about this; I'm new (6+ months) and have been combing the boards and videos for TTPs for all, specific class and specific tier of ships.  This discussion was very informative and while I have my own opinions, most of the how tos speak to using/following historical naval tactics of the day - DDs screen/spot; CAs provide cover for DDs and BBs, and BBs provide heavy arty support.

Oddly enough, if you look at ground battlefield tactics of the day they aren't much different - small, manuveable units (ships) out front to probe, spot and attack, howitzers further back and then the DIVARTY.

Good stuff, awesome game.

Welcome to WoWS! 
 

I think the OP’s claim that the (only) reason BBs don’t push is because they aren’t screened is a big call. Sure, having the screen is nice and teamwork wins games, but BBs often don’t push up to support their team, even if screened, because of various reasons - including that we’re all human and fallible, focusing on a target far away rather than your own positioning, not realising that you are on the strong flank and need to push, etc etc. 

Anyway, I have collected or created various resources on the forums and YouTube that you might be interested in - copied below. Hopefully that helps!

 

There are a range of great resources to help new players; both on these forums and on youtube etc; I strongly encourage you to read the following: 

  • How to set up your game client to get the information you need to win: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSCb96CLCs4
  • (For brand New Players - a full comprehensive guide) iChase's How to get good at World of Warships - I wish this was around when I started!
  • (For New Players) - Wargaming's 'How It Works' series that explains the game's mechanics - important to learn these as it differs to real life.
  • (For New Players looking to become Intermediate) my Ship Role Quick Reference Guide to understand how to get the best out of your ship every battle and how to deal with enemy ships of the same type. 
  • (For Intermediate players) LittleWhiteMouse's guide to How to take control of your win rate:  https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/75077-how-to-control-your-win-rate/
  • For players at any level who are interested in personalised feedback on a particular battle, get in touch with Lord_Zath and his replay centre - its an amazing service that you should take advantage of.  
  • You are under absolutely no obligation to spend money on this game - it is entirely free to play including at high tiers. 
    • Understanding the economics of WoWS and tips for playing as free-to-play: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDgwH2w-k7U
    • Still, if you are interested in buying a premium ship, a discussion on what premium ships are good value for newer players can be found on my New Player Guide Premium Ships for New Players.
      • The second post in this thread has some good advice on how to rapidly become a better player through teamwork and positioning - see Section 3 - its worth a read!

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The OP sounds like the driver who likes to blame the DDs for the ills in the match. I can't tell you how many times the BB drivers, 19k back, are screaming at us small boys to "go get that cap", or "go find that ship" when our odds of survival are low. We DDs count radar ships. Nothing is worse than probing blind, running into a cap or in open water and having a radar light you up for us it's a death sentence. The amount of gun fire on the DD at that time can out number the friendly return fire astronomically. So I like to avoid caps to see where the ships are to make an accurate assessment of the tactical situation. However then you're called useless. I see how I'm located on RDF and then having screens of torps running at you dissuades me from a full speed launch into the nether reaches 

 

These BB drivers will be the first ones to report you because you didn't provide them with clear and ever present tracking. You didn't kill that gun boat in your JP torp boat. They report you for not doing enough or trying to do too much...don't get me started on giving them smoke cover.

 

I don't post much but this topic is near and dear to me. It's also why I gave up on karma because this dog can't hunt, kill, survive and be everything to everyone. 

Rant over.

 

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