Savage Nerf of German Secondary Guns Not Funny

[Nordlaender]

I just want to say after doing a lot of testing that German BBs are not fun to play at all -- not even in Co-op.

I am really stunned that WG (or World of Tanks, I guess I should say) thought a major nerf of a particular play style would bring in more players instead of driving more away from this utterly boring and stagnant gameplay.

German secondaries are ruined, and if you go with no buffs to them at all, then French secondary guns (unbuffed) are actually stronger.

DD players are being torped from behind because cruisers are too afraid to go forward against 15,000 k damage per shell sniper ships.  Gosh, what a mess.

Note to WG:  as far as ribbons are concerned, you'll need to bring it down by 50% or more, unless you want directives and orders just by-passed.

 

Think I'll take a break from any kind of grind until WG comes to its senses and realizes that their secret nerfs and commander skill downgrade have handed the entire game to a few island hugging sniper players who could care less about naval maneuvers while they sit and click every 30 seconds.

Enjoy your money grab while you can.

[Helstrem]

25 minutes ago, Nordlaender said:

I just want to say after doing a lot of testing that German BBs are not fun to play at all -- not even in Co-op.

I am really stunned that WG (or World of Tanks, I guess I should say) thought a major nerf of a particular play style would bring in more players instead of driving more away from this utterly boring and stagnant gameplay.

German secondaries are ruined, and if you go with no buffs to them at all, then French secondary guns (unbuffed) are actually stronger.

DD players are being torped from behind because cruisers are too afraid to go forward against 15,000 k damage per shell sniper ships.  Gosh, what a mess.

Note to WG:  as far as ribbons are concerned, you'll need to bring it down by 50% or more, unless you want directives and orders just by-passed.

 

Think I'll take a break from any kind of grind until WG comes to its senses and realizes that their secret nerfs and commander skill downgrade have handed the entire game to a few island hugging sniper players who could care less about naval maneuvers while they sit and click every 30 seconds.

Enjoy your money grab while you can.

The German secondary build was buffed, not nerfed.  It just wasn’t buffed as much as sniper BBS were buffed.

[TheArc]

8 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

The German secondary build was buffed, not nerfed.  It just wasn’t buffed as much as sniper BBS were buffed.

No. Accuracy is reduced compared to how it was before 10.0, WG did buff it compared to the initial 10.0 test nerf, but definitely wasn't buffed compared to the old skills.

Secondary builds also lost all the AA skills that came with the old captain skills automatically when you went with a secondary skill choices. 

[Helstrem]

5 minutes ago, TheArc said:

No. Accuracy is reduced compared to how it was before 10.0, WG did buff it compared to the initial 10.0 test nerf, but definitely wasn't buffed compared to the old skills.

Secondary builds also lost all the AA skills that came with the old captain skills automatically when you went with a secondary skill choices. 

That doesn't mean the build was nerfed.  A slight loss of accuracy against designated targets brought longer range, infinitely better accuracy against undesignated targets, a higher rate of fire for main battery guns and the option to take an additional 4 point skill such as Fire Proof or Concealment Expert.  That is unequivocally more capable than the build was.  The AA changes are annoying, but honestly negligible.

The problem is the camping at max range meta was boosted through the roof by Dead Eye and none of the above matters in the game right now as any BB that tries to push to secondary range gets focused and annihilated.  The old build would do no better, and possibly worse.  

[Karstodes]

17 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

A slight loss of accuracy against designated targets brought longer range, infinitely better accuracy against undesignated targets, a higher rate of fire for main battery guns and the option to take an additional 4 point skill such as Fire Proof or Concealment Expert.

And that you can have a usable secondary build with only 10pts instead of the 14 needed before.

[KarlGalster]

5 minutes ago, Karstodes said:

And that you can have a usable secondary build with only 10pts instead of the 14 needed before.

not to mention that IFHE costs only two points. you can easily double your secondary dpm on most german BBs

[Helstrem]

7 minutes ago, Karstodes said:

And that you can have a usable secondary build with only 10pts instead of the 14 needed before.

 

Just now, KarlGalster said:

not to mention that IFHE costs only two points. you can easily double your secondary dpm on most german BBs

Yep, the real problem with German secondary builds has nothing to do with German secondary builds themselves and everything to do with the Dead Eye and no concealment HE spam cruiser builds camping in the back.

That said, ships like Montana and Shikishima either didn't get the promised secondary build buff or were actually nerfed in terms of secondary builds.  Both pushed hard to take Dead Eye and sit at the back.

[WarStore]

35 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

That doesn't mean the build was nerfed.  A slight loss of accuracy against designated targets brought longer range, infinitely better accuracy against undesignated targets, a higher rate of fire for main battery guns and the option to take an additional 4 point skill such as Fire Proof or Concealment Expert.  That is unequivocally more capable than the build was.  The AA changes are annoying, but honestly negligible.

The problem is the camping at max range meta was boosted through the roof by Dead Eye and none of the above matters in the game right now as any BB that tries to push to secondary range gets focused and annihilated.  The old build would do no better, and possibly worse.  

Big nerf to accuracy. 

[YouSatInGum]

42 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

That doesn't mean the build was nerfed.  A slight loss of accuracy against designated targets brought longer range, infinitely better accuracy against undesignated targets, a higher rate of fire for main battery guns and the option to take an additional 4 point skill such as Fire Proof or Concealment Expert.  That is unequivocally more capable than the build was.  The AA changes are annoying, but honestly negligible.

The problem is the camping at max range meta was boosted through the roof by Dead Eye and none of the above matters in the game right now as any BB that tries to push to secondary range gets focused and annihilated.  The old build would do no better, and possibly worse.  

Your facts are wrong.

This was my old secondary hybrid build with 19 points

PT, EL, AR (or EM if slow turret), SI, AFT, FP, ManSec.

Now it takes 21 and I lose a 1pt skill  (going to use old names since I havent learned all new names, and easier to compare)

1pt - EL

2pt - PT

3pt - AFT equiv, AR

4 - Man sec, FP, SI

On fast cooldown heal BB like the USN ones, you need SI, and its dumb to not take FP.  So this hybrid survival sec build is what I was very happy with.

Now to do the same thing I need to grind out another 19point cpt worth of xp and still lose skill.

That's a nerf in my book.

 

[Karstodes]

29 minutes ago, YouSatInGum said:

Your facts are wrong.

This was my old secondary hybrid build with 19 points

PT, EL, AR (or EM if slow turret), SI, AFT, FP, ManSec.

Now it takes 21 and I lose a 1pt skill  (going to use old names since I havent learned all new names, and easier to compare)

1pt - EL

2pt - PT

3pt - AFT equiv, AR

4 - Man sec, FP, SI

On fast cooldown heal BB like the USN ones, you need SI, and its dumb to not take FP.  So this hybrid survival sec build is what I was very happy with.

Now to do the same thing I need to grind out another 19point cpt worth of xp and still lose skill.

That's a nerf in my book.

 

The heal do give you 10% more hp, you gain 10% battery reload, AR was slightly buffed.

 

36 minutes ago, WarStore said:

Big nerf to accuracy.

10%. 

[Helstrem]

A thought occurred to me as I was getting ready for bed.  The life of a secondary build BB in today’s meta brings to mind The Charge of the Light Brigade.

Cannon to right of them,

Cannon to left of them,

Cannon in front of them

   Volleyed and thundered;

Stormed at with shot and shell,

Boldly they rode and well,

Into the jaws of Death,

Into the mouth of hell

   Rode the six hundred.

[Kartaugh]

14 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

A thought occurred to me as I was getting ready for bed.  The life of a secondary build BB in today’s meta brings to mind The Charge of the Light Brigade.

Cannon to right of them,

Cannon to left of them,

Cannon in front of them

   Volleyed and thundered;

Stormed at with shot and shell,

Boldly they rode and well,

Into the jaws of Death,

Into the mouth of hell

   Rode the six hundred.

Do you remember what happened to them?

[Pugilistic]

I hate to be a broken record but: 

heads exploding over an automated PVE mechanic- that isn't AA. 

[Helstrem]

40 minutes ago, Kartaugh said:

Do you remember what happened to them?

That is the point.  It is exactly what happens in WoWS now.

[clammboy]

You people never learn in 3 months it will be something else ruining the game . You will still all be here you will still all  be complaining and despite your threats to quit you will all still be playing .  

[megahugenoob]

3 hours ago, Karstodes said:

And that you can have a usable secondary build with only 10pts instead of the 14 needed before.

Wrong. You try running a secondary build without fire prevention and see how that goes in the current meta!

[Moggytwo]

3 hours ago, Helstrem said:

That doesn't mean the build was nerfed.  A slight loss of accuracy against designated targets brought longer range, infinitely better accuracy against undesignated targets, a higher rate of fire for main battery guns and the option to take an additional 4 point skill such as Fire Proof or Concealment Expert.  That is unequivocally more capable than the build was.  The AA changes are annoying, but honestly negligible.

The problem is the camping at max range meta was boosted through the roof by Dead Eye and none of the above matters in the game right now as any BB that tries to push to secondary range gets focused and annihilated.  The old build would do no better, and possibly worse.  

This analysis is spot on.  If you ignore all the other changes to the game secondary builds were buffed a bit.  Unfortunately for players of secondary BB's, Dead Eye has moved the BB's that used to sit in the mid range (the majority of BB's), into sniping ranges, and that has had follow on effects for cruiser builds (moon build in particular being meta now) and cruiser positioning.

Now and secondary BB that tries to get anywhere near secondary range is many km ahead of their team, and will get focused and die.  Previously they wouldn't be that far ahead of their team's BB's and cruisers if they did this.

We will be finding out the skill rework balance changes that will be in 0.10.1 in a dev blog pretty soon.  WG are obviously aware of these issues, and hopefully their balance changes will start to move the game in a direction where most BB's are operating in the mid ranges again.  We shall see.

[_WaveRider_]

4 hours ago, Helstrem said:

The German secondary build was buffed, not nerfed.  It just wasn’t buffed as much as sniper BBS were buffed.

Smoke and mirrors my friend.

On one hand WG buff elements, on the other they take them away - when this type of balancing is carried out its always wise to wait a while to assess whether the overall result is a buff or nerf.

 

So far the returns have indicated a nerf and I believe most people who have analysed the numbers and even the Warships stream on Twitch indicated it was an overall nerf to secondary builds.

[Zaydin]

2 hours ago, megahugenoob said:

Wrong. You try running a secondary build without fire prevention and see how that goes in the current meta!

Yep. So long as WG refuses to admit the HE spam meta they are pushing is harmful to the games health and moves to fix it, secondary builds will never be viable compared to tanking builds. There is no room for "Fun" builds in WGs eyes; there is one und only one viable build per ship so far as they are concerned and if you don't play a ship the way they want it played you are playing it wrong.

[WarStore]

5 hours ago, Karstodes said:

The heal do give you 10% more hp, you gain 10% battery reload, AR was slightly buffed.

 

10%. 

You don't understand how it works and I sm not in the mood to explain it again to an obvious troll.

[Karstodes]

3 hours ago, megahugenoob said:

Wrong. You try running a secondary build without fire prevention and see how that goes in the current meta!

Well, like before.

 

but now you need 10 pts to make secondaries works, not 14.

48 minutes ago, WarStore said:

You don't understand how it works and I sm not in the mood to explain it again to an obvious troll.

I just use the real data of wows.

number do not lies.

[WarStore]

Numbers you don't understand do not lie. But trolls do

[Karstodes]

58 minutes ago, WarStore said:

Numbers you don't understand do not lie. But trolls do

Manual control gave 60% more accuracy before.

Now it gives 35%.

But by 10.0 German base accuracy got buff by 22.5%

 

Add it and you had a slight nerf in comparison to before.

 

As I said I use official numbers.

As you said, troll don't.

[Asym_KS]

Gosh guys, the entire point of the CPT skill change was to give you more choices for less overall value.  Dead Eye is because they are still selling BB's.........we are in the BB Clone war era....  Once the sales start to fade, Dead Eye will fade.

This is an old paradigm they use:  "Give them choices and sell it as an improvement !  That, actually degrades the battlespace to increase the number of games played to obtain the old economic revenue...."  They recycled an old videogame mature game technique to force revenue from a stagnant game population....  See any new "real innovative content?"  See any new modes of play like the Space or Halloween stuff???  See any new maps or Scenarios??? 

HELLO........mature game status and that means we're into M = P..........Marginal (expense) = Passable (profits.)   So, numbers don't lie and that means that this game is now a mature game with a terrible grind mechanic which, will hollow out the overall skill densities and cause new players to leave........   Which means...........a small game population with huge skill disparities or shifts to PVE that will make PVP even worse.....  That's what happened to the latest game I used as an example earlier to make my point.....  History repeats itself................  Hope this helps

[Kartaugh]

11 hours ago, Helstrem said:

That is the point.  It is exactly what happens in WoWS now.

crap, I must've had a brain fart when I read the first sentence of your post...

My bad.