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LittleWhiteMouse

AL Montpelier demonstrating Dazzle's effects

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WnDjyRO.gif

  • 180 shells fired at 15km while using the Aiming System Modification 1 upgrade on AL Montpelier.
  • Stock mapping was pulled from a stationary Fuso bot without camouflage, skills or upgrades.
  • Dazzle mapping came from firing at a stationary Kléber (piloted by @Chobittsu) without camouflage or concealment upgrades.  Kléber was using skills and upgrades to boost range on top of the Dazzle skill.  Methodology was to use a Reference Fuso™ for scale then have Montpelier move to 15km away from Kléber (Kleber did not move).  Kléber would fire, revealing herself and activating Dazzle for 15 seconds.  Montpelier would lock on and fire a salvo.  Kléber would then cease fire and return to stealth.  Rinse and repeat to collect the necessary results.
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Noticable difference.

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2 minutes ago, Lert said:

Noticable difference.

My eyes say the opposite....not much difference for a 4 point skill.

Very nice work LMW. +1

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1 minute ago, Lert said:

Noticable difference.

But is it that big of a difference to warrant the 4 point pricetag?

That said, I'd like to see Kuznetzov's Will to Victory stacked on top of Dazzle. +40% dispersion could be pretty interesting.

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You think so?  That center mass grouping seems roughly the same.  Naturally my opinion is just a quick visual vs detailed measurement.

Agree dispersal pattern is different and would be anyway - new test = new data = new dispersion pattern.You think so?  That center mass grouping seems roughly the same.  Agree dispersal pattern is different and would be anyway - new test = new data = new dispersion pattern.

 

Not sure I'm sold on the skill effectiveness

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There is a difference but it’s definitely more subtle than dead-eye.

I was debating this skill for Paolo Emilio but I don’t think it will help much at close range.

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1 minute ago, DM31 said:

There is a difference but it’s definitely more subtle than dead-eye.

I was debating this skill for Paolo Emilio but I don’t think it will help much at close range.

  • Dazzle is not meant to help against close range fire.
  • Dazzle does not significantly help against Surveillance Radar equipped cruisers.
  • Dazzle limits the effectiveness of incidental, long-range supporting fire.  This is especially effective against battleships.
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3 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:
  • Dazzle is not meant to help against close range fire.
  • Dazzle does not significantly help against Surveillance Radar equipped cruisers.
  • Dazzle limits the effectiveness of incidental, long-range supporting fire.  This is especially effective against battleships.

That makes sense.  Thanks!

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180 shots with such tight grouping (high sigma) and that paint tool seems a bit overkill. It is hard to judge exactly the center grouping.

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18 minutes ago, Lert said:

Noticable difference.

Yeah, there is.  But I'm not sure which is preferable.

 

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1 minute ago, WarStore said:

180 shots with such tight grouping (high sigma) and that paint tool seems a bit overkill. It is hard to judge exactly the center grouping.

All cruisers spit out groupings like that.  Most cruisers in the game have 2.0 sigma or better with very few exceptions.
-Edit-  These are the ships that are going to be picking off your destroyers.

Edited by LittleWhiteMouse

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Looking at the two images, I'm not sure there's 4 points worth of effect there.

Especially when combined with short active time. 

 

Edited by KilljoyCutter
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2 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

Looking at the two images, I'm not sure there's 4 points worth of effect there.

Especially when combined with short active time. 

 

Kind of my thoughts.

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1 minute ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

All cruisers spit out groupings like that.  Most cruisers in the game have 2.0 sigma or better with very few exceptions.
-Edit-  These are the ships that are going to be picking off your destroyers.

I know. I am just saying it is a bit hard to judge. Perhaps fewer shots and make the marker of the paint tool a bit smaller would help to judge what exactly is going on there. Although battleships would also be firing at destroyers, the Montpelier has higher sigma than pretty much all cruisers at tier X (2.15 vs 2.05)

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8 minutes ago, iDuckman said:

Yeah, there is.  But I'm not sure which is preferable.

 

From what I'm seeing, Dazzle isn't a high priority (for me, at least).

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I'm thinking Sigma has something to do with Dazzle's uselessness because that stat determines likeliness of shells going to the center.

 

So you worsened someone's dispersion.  Okay, cool, but Sigma still dictates tendency to go to the center.  Cruisers are high Sigma ships, 2.0 Sigma is the norm and they also have small dispersion patterns.  Dazzle was never going to be useful against Cruiser gunfire.  What would be interesting is to see how it affects BB accuracy.

 

But that brings up something else.  Let's say *IF* Dazzle negatively affects BB accuracy a lot, is it worth 4 pts for it to work against only 1 ship type?

 

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Well, there it goes. The difference can be noted (the central grouping is more dispersed than the borders) but the effect should not be enough to make a game-changing difference. From the beginning, the dispersion area of cruisers is really really small, so the effect would not be so noticeable as in battleships' cases. This would be useful against supercruisers/battleships, but not against normal cruisers or (even worse) against destroyers.

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I'd be very curious to see this test done with a battleship like Yamato or Thunderer.

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It's actually more visible than I expected. Three points of note IMO:

  • Most of that pattern isn't relevant. Shots that miss still miss, no change. The only thing that matters are shots that would have hit, that now miss.
  • To see that better, take the outline of the Kleber and mentally (or Photoshop, whatever) move it into the center of the shot map. You'll see that there's quite a bit of shot mass that now impacts just off to the sides of the ship, which used to be inside it. That's the value you're getting: hits that turn into misses.
  • I still wouldn't take it. The key to avoiding damage in dodgy destroyers like Kleber is to bait shots into predictable locations, then change throttle or direction so you're not in that location when they land. Loose, wide patterns like the Dazzle "purple cloud" are a pain in the [edited]because your ability to consistently avoid the impact location is worse -- the shells fall over a wider and less predictable area. RNG starts to matter more than your dodging skill, and I've shot at enough Klebers to know that a highly skilled one can control nearly all of the incoming fire from a small number of sources. And no skilled player is going to give up control in favor of RNG, so I rapidly see Dazzle falling into the realm of "scrub skill".
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13 minutes ago, WarStore said:

I know. I am just saying it is a bit hard to judge. Perhaps fewer shots and make the marker of the paint tool a bit smaller would help to judge what exactly is going on there. Although battleships would also be firing at destroyers, the Montpelier has higher sigma than pretty much all cruisers at tier X (2.15 vs 2.05)

Fewer shots plays more to the whims of RNGeebus and it gets too easy to cherry-pick results people want. 
Montpelier was selected precisely because she has higher-than-average sigma but even those effects are minimal.  Evidence:

WnXP13d.gif&key=8d95475ae3c794cd610ea416
Cleveland vs Montpelier

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10 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Fewer shots plays more to the whims of RNGeebus and it gets too easy to cherry-pick results people want. 
Montpelier was selected precisely because she has higher-than-average sigma but even those effects are minimal.  Evidence:

WnXP13d.gif&key=8d95475ae3c794cd610ea416
Cleveland vs Montpelier

I understand that fewer shots would have that effect and more shots is statistically better, but my point here isn't to cherry pick, but to see if the shots that would have hit a Kleber now is a miss or not. Because far too many big purple circles are tightly grouped together, we don't see for sure the number of shots that would have missed such a small target.  Each of those circles have roughly the size of a Fuso's turret, not a Montpelier's shell.

And I think picking a ship that has higher than average sigma actually doesn't benefit this particular testing, because you are not always getting shot by higher than average sigma. You are more likely to get shot by average to lower than average sigma. And I do spot some difference in that other image. Sure, from so far away against a Fuso it doesn't seem that great of a difference. But place a Gearing right at the center there instead. 

Edited by WarStore
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The 15 second time limit was the weak point of this skill and why I have never chosen it on any DDs. The way that Miss Mouse tested it proves it, basically one or two salvos from fast firing ships and it is useless until you go dark again. The groupings do not show any reason to use this skill, if you can call it a skill, even if it was active continuously. Nice work Mousey.

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As a side note, if possible it would be nice to superimpose the target ship onto the dispersion circle. Gives a better visual reference of what shells are hitting and what aren't. In this case, putting the Kleber in the center and counting what shells would have hit would give a more accurate representation of Dazzle's effects. (Easier to understand 100 vs. 120 hits than trying to visualize the difference). 

From the gif, dazzle does look like it's having some effect on dispersion as more shells are landing off-center than normal. Unfortunately, it comes at the cost of 4 points when a simple turn and brake will dodge more shells. Probably best saved for competitive where players have better aim. 

Edited by Your_SAT_Score
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49 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I'm thinking Sigma has something to do with Dazzle's uselessness because that stat determines likeliness of shells going to the center.

 

So you worsened someone's dispersion.  Okay, cool, but Sigma still dictates tendency to go to the center.  Cruisers are high Sigma ships, 2.0 Sigma is the norm and they also have small dispersion patterns.  Dazzle was never going to be useful against Cruiser gunfire.  What would be interesting is to see how it affects BB accuracy.

 

But that brings up something else.  Let's say *IF* Dazzle negatively affects BB accuracy a lot, is it worth 4 pts for it to work against only 1 ship type?

 

No, not really. However if dazzle worked on something like a CV then we might be talking.

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