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Yesman1337

Secondary Build Cruisers (Are there any)

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Yes I know the rework veritably killed off secondary builds but I am kind of curious and wondering if there are any cruisers that could build into them. Just to try something different or interesting. 

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Siegfried 

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Siegfried and to a far lesser extent Agir

However LWM's reviews indicate Siegfried's work better than Agir.

In reality though, even Siegfried's secondaries has massively suffered from lack of access to any secondary captain skills because Wargaming wants to...

*checks notes*

... increase diversity of viable builds.

 

The only thing you can do to build into them now is with upgrades and the signal.

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To be honest the closest you can get to a secondary build on anything somewhat resembling a  supercruiser is either Scharnhorst or Odin.

Edited by warheart1992
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All the German cruisers got a secondary range buff. They dont have a lot to work with but Hidenburg gets to 10.5km, Roon gets to like 10km or something. The list goes on with slight decreases per tier.

Edit: These numbers are with the secondary module and flag.

Edited by Skuggsja

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2 hours ago, SoothingWhaleSongEU said:

Siegfried and to a far lesser extent Agir

However LWM's reviews indicate Siegfried's work better than Agir.

In reality though, even Siegfried's secondaries has massively suffered from lack of access to any secondary captain skills because Wargaming wants to...

*checks notes*

... increase diversity of viable builds.

 

The only thing you can do to build into them now is with upgrades and the signal.

That changed with the new patch. The German secondary ranges are all standardized on all cruisers. Last I checked Agir and Siegfried now have the same range. Agir is probably a slightly better secondary boat now over Siegfried now courtesy of  4 more secondary guns than Siegfried has. I believe Mouse mentioned that Agir's angles aren't as good as Siegfried's so it may even out. 

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2 hours ago, Yesman1337 said:

Yes I know the rework veritably killed off secondary builds but I am kind of curious and wondering if there are any cruisers that could build into them. Just to try something different or interesting. 

Technically, all cruisers got secondary range buffs in the patch and can actually spit out secondary dps now.  It is more an issue of which cruisers have enough of them that fire fast enough (with enough penetration) to matter and which cruisers can survive at close ranges with a target on their broadside long enough for them to matter. The answer is not many. It mostly comes back to Agir and Siegfried because their turtlebacks may let them survive long enough for the secondaries to do some work. Alaska is probably next with its underwater citadel and lots of 5/38s, but it doesn't have boosted ROF or penetration like the Germans do. The others really just won't survive long enough at those ranges for the secondaries to register enough hits to matter. 

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3 hours ago, Yesman1337 said:

Yes I know the rework veritably killed off secondary builds but I am kind of curious and wondering if there are any cruisers that could build into them. Just to try something different or interesting. 

Hmm.... not really. You can still build into secondary thru the modules but you can not also do it thru the skill tree. So yeah effective secondary builds for Cruisers are no more. High tier German and French Cruisers will now have really good secondary ranges but think of them as truly just a side bonus. I would not build into them, at least not right now.

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Graf Spee. Secondaries Now reach 7.1. That's far enough to be impactful, especialy in operations.  She has a heavy (tier six) secondary loadout with four 105's and four150's per side. To bad Mikasa didn't get a buff.

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I was also going to mention Graf Spee and the 7.1km range, but getting that close for randoms, would someone last that long? I tried it out but only in co-op, then stuck to a more convential build using aiming systems and a flag where the secondaries can get to 6.2km which is a nice range to have, but not as much of an accuracy buff as the "full" setup.

It just seemed a bit lackluster for the skill and secondary module investment. The skill that can help is top grade gunner, but it only yields a 10% improvement in rate of fire, nice but not earth shattering if the guns don't hit. A skill with an increase to range and accuracy is needed to make the setups useable.

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For the purpose of PVP, "Secondaries" Cruisers is a bit iffy.  Trying it out with USN Cruisers, to include even IX Super Cruiser Alaska has been absolutely a waste.  German ones have merit but... If it's risky for a Battleship to brawl in PVP, can a Cruiser do it better?  For the strict confines of PVE, sure, anything works if one insists on it.  You can get away with a lot in PVE.

 

You guys look at the Cruiser secondary gun ranges and get interested, but the simple reality is:

1.  They're even worse accurate than what Battleships can do when the build is complete

2.  In general the reload is going to be pretty bad.

3.  The amount of secondary guns you have is trash because you simply are a smaller ship than a Battleship, who pack way more of these weapons.

 

Nobody is going to be scared of a USN Cruiser secondary battery with sh*t 6 seconds base reload time and an even sh*ttier secondaries accuracy.  Remember that no Cruiser in the game has access to Secondary Skills to improve accuracy.  The only accuracy boosting item is SBM1 in Slot 3... That's it.  Cruisers also lack any skills to improve Secondaries range.  Only said SBM1 upgrade does that.

Another problem with considering Cruisers for Secondaries is that because they're small ships, they don't pack the amount of secondary guns like a Battleship will.

 

In Co-Op I had been fooling around with the idea of Secondaries on a Cruiser.  Some numbers, some of which is just terrible, some amusing:

IX Super Cruiser Alaska
 

Spoiler

 

SBM1 (Slot 3;  Secondaries range & accuracy buff) *and* AAM2 (Slot 6;  Secondaries reload buff)

127mm 6x2:  Pathetic amount of guns.

4.8 seconds reload (still too slow)

8.3km secondaries range

21mm HE Pen (passable)

5% Fire Chance (trash)

Straight up trash, especially considering both Slot 3 and 6 upgrade slots were sacrificed for this.

 

 

X CA Des Moines.  For the LulZ I tried it in Co-Op.
 

Spoiler

 

SBM1 (Slot 3).  Slot 6 is for Legendary.

127mm 6x2:  Pathetic amount of guns.

6 seconds reload (absolutely trash reload)

8.8km secondaries range

21mm HE Pen

5% Fire Chance

Is that worth it for PVE?  No.  Even in the confines of Co-Op this was absolute trash.  Outside of range, you'll see those trash values repeat with other USN Cruisers.  For example, VIII USN CL Cleveland can do the same, the only difference would be that the range with SBM1 is 7.9km.

 

USN BBs in those tiers will have 127mm 10x2 secondary battery, or very close to that.  As BBs they access not only the same upgrades for secondaries these Cruisers do, but they access the skills to improve accuracy that no Cruiser can.

 

 

IX Super Cruiser Agir - Uses my GK IFHE Secondaries Captain
 

Spoiler

 

SBM1 (Slot 3) and AAM2 (Slot 6;  Secondaries reload buff)

128mm 9x2:  Still low but way better than most other Cruisers.

2.6 seconds (nice and fast)

9.5km range

40mm HE Pen (I have IFHE)

2.5% Fire Chance (ultra low)

Without IFHE the HE Pen is 32mm and Fire Chance is still a very low 5%.

From fooling around in Co-Op, this has been the only acceptable Cruiser "Secondaries" I have played.  But for PVP?... I don't know... Is it even feasible for a Super Cruiser to brawl in High Tier Random Battles with Dead Eye Battleships, Carriers, and Hallands / Shimas?  Is this investment worth it compared to just slapping ASM1 and MBM3 and playing it safer?

 

 

X CA Hindenburg - Like Des Moines, this was tried out "For the LulZ."
 

Spoiler

 

SBM1 upgrade for secondaries only.  MBM3 in Slot 6 for the main battery reload buff.

105mm 8x2:  Still too low for my liking.

3 seconds reload (good)

10km range

26mm HE Pen (okay-ish Pen but there will be a lot of stuff that will cause this to Non-Pen.  There are a bunch of targets that will cause them to Non-Pen)

Even in the dinky confines of Co-Op where I get opportunities to brawl, this isn't enough.  It's a light show but you aren't hitting much.  Bunch of targets you really can't harm but this is better than what you'll see with other Cruisers.

 

 

But to keep this in perspective to their German BB cousins:

IX FDG & Premium Pommern

105mm 8x2 with 150mm 6x2

X GK

128mm 10x2 with 150mm 4x2

 

Again, this stuff will work okay in the confines of PVE... What else is a Cruiser going to build for?

Survivability?  LOL!

Main Battery Accuracy?  Not needed for regular Cruisers, they're accurate already.

AA?  BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

But for PVP... I don't know.  Particularly in High Tier.  Thunderers, Yamatos, Vermonts, Georgias, Kremlins, and a whole host of other such nasties now using Dead Eye... Sounds too risky for PVP.  If Battleship players can get rekt trying to push for a brawl, will a Cruiser, even a Super Cruiser be any better?  Consider the sheer amount of 457mm+ armed Battleships in the game now compared to two years ago.  457mm+ AP simply wrecks the best protection schemes Cruisers have.  Overmatch is a b*tch.

tenor.gif&f=1&nofb=1

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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I think Yoshino has the same 100mm guns as the DD gunboat line.  

They do decent damage.

But you just don't get to use them for very long.

Plus, if you are in secondary gun range, you are in torp range.

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1 minute ago, DrHolmes52 said:

I think Yoshino has the same 100mm guns as the DD gunboat line.  

They do decent damage.

But you just don't get to use them for very long.

Plus, if you are in secondary gun range, you are in torp range.

IX Azuma and X Yoshino do have the 100mm DP guns with the crazy HE Pen of 30mm.  Here's my Azuma & Yoshino in testing with SBM1 installed in Slot 3.

shot-21-02-03-11-33-31-0982.jpg

shot-21-02-03-11-37-13-0732.jpg

It's okay... For PVE.  Even for Co-Op I'm wary about pushing to be close enough to use Secondaries with Azuma.  There's lots of BBs that would crush them.  But for PVP I'd never recommend it.

 

Yoshino has torpedoes, but as with Azuma, I'd be wary about when to push to brawl for PVE.  I'd never spec for brawls with either in PVP.

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3 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

IX Azuma and X Yoshino do have the 100mm DP guns with the crazy HE Pen of 30mm.  Here's my Azuma & Yoshino in testing with SBM1 installed in Slot 3.

shot-21-02-03-11-33-31-0982.jpg

shot-21-02-03-11-37-13-0732.jpg

It's okay... For PVE.  Even for Co-Op I'm wary about pushing to be close enough to use Secondaries with Azuma.  There's lots of BBs that would crush them.  But for PVP I'd never recommend it.

 

Yoshino has torpedoes, but as with Azuma, I'd be wary about when to push to brawl for PVE.  I'd never spec for brawls with either in PVP.

There's a lot of BBs that crush the Yoshino, even in PVE.  You have to get down to 380s to feel somewhat comfortable.  I just noticed (more now with the longer range) that I get a fair amount of damage for the number of hits I get.

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7 minutes ago, DrHolmes52 said:

There's a lot of BBs that crush the Yoshino, even in PVE.  You have to get down to 380s to feel somewhat comfortable.  I just noticed (more now with the longer range) that I get a fair amount of damage for the number of hits I get.

Yeah, you have to pay attention to the gun sizes around.  A 381mm armed BB, you have to be clever and approach properly angled... Can't give up the 25mm bow, you'll get Overmatched there.  The center of the hull is 27mm so that's fine if you angle right and bait the bots with the center hull at an angle.

Yoshino has the same 25mm bow but her center is 30mm, so angled, she can bounce 429mm or smaller AP.  But again, you have to be careful in the angling, can't let the bot BB shells land on the 25mm bow.

 

It's weird with the B-65 Cruisers because the bow / snout is so big, but it's doable in PVE.

shot-21-02-03-11-50-42-0676.jpg

A player BB would molest a B-65.  If you see a 430mm+ armed BB, no way.  Asking to get smashed.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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Just now, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Yeah, you have to pay attention to the gun sizes around.  A 381mm armed BB, you have to be clever and approach properly angled... Can't give up the 25mm bow, you'll get Overmatched there.  The center of the hull is 27mm so that's fine if you angle right and bait the bots with the center hull at an angle.

Yoshino has the same 25mm bow but her center is 30mm, so angled, she can bounce 429mm or smaller AP.  But again, you have to be careful in the angling, can't let the bot BB shells land on the 25mm bow.

 

It's weird with the B-65 Cruisers because the bow / snout is so big, but it's doable in PVE.

shot-21-02-03-11-50-42-0676.jpg

A player BB would molest a B-65.

Also the problem with getting hit at range.  Sometimes dispersion alone kills you.

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24 minutes ago, DrHolmes52 said:

Also the problem with getting hit at range.  Sometimes dispersion alone kills you.

That's the thing with Cruisers, even at range and trying to do WASD Hax, sometimes that salvo just has your name on it and it's time to go.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

IX Azuma and X Yoshino do have the 100mm DP guns with the crazy HE Pen of 30mm

I actually can't remember, do the 100mm DP Japanese secondaries have not only 30mm penetration, but also improved dispersion? If they don't, that WOULD explain these complaints I'm seeing about Shikishima's loss of effectiveness in the secondaries dept...

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1 hour ago, SaiIor_Moon said:

I actually can't remember, do the 100mm DP Japanese secondaries have not only 30mm penetration, but also improved dispersion? If they don't, that WOULD explain these complaints I'm seeing about Shikishima's loss of effectiveness in the secondaries dept...

I don't know about improved dispersion, but the 100mm DP guns fire real fast.  2.7 seconds for Azuma, Yoshino.  Kii & Shikashima both have 3 seconds but CQC would reduce that to 2.7.  Secondaries in general even for BBs have suffered a lot in their accuracy.  Rate of fire is even more important to keep pumping out shells and hope they hit.  I was greatly displeased in Co-Op when a Bot Ibuki sailed by casually at 9km through my Ohio's secondaries and barely got hit before it got behind some island.

 

IIRC, the ones with improved secondaries accuracy:  German BBs, and particular Premium USN BBs (Ohio, Georgia, Massachusetts).  I don't think any of the IJN, even the Premiums, ever had improved accuracy, but I'm not 100% on that.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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16 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I don't know about improved dispersion, but the 100mm DP guns fire real fast.  2.7 seconds for Azuma, Yoshino.  Kii & Shikashima both have 3 seconds but CQC would reduce that to 2.7.  Secondaries in general even for BBs have suffered a lot in their accuracy.  Rate of fire is even more important to keep pumping out shells and hope they hit.  I was greatly displeased in Co-Op when a Bot Ibuki sailed by casually at 9km through my Ohio's secondaries and barely got hit before it got behind some island.

 

IIRC, the ones with improved secondaries accuracy:  German BBs, and particular Premium USN BBs (Ohio, Georgia, Massachusetts).  I don't think any of the IJN, even the Premiums, ever had improved accuracy, but I'm not 100% on that.

Thanks for the answer, and I THINK the casemates got "improved dispersion", but since they fire so slowly, it doesn't mean much.

Also....

17 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I was greatly displeased in Co-Op when a Bot Ibuki sailed by casually at 9km through my Ohio's secondaries and barely got hit before it got behind some island.

....That hurts to read...Secondaries accuracy nerf is such a drag....

Junko_Enoshima_Depressed.png.2c6d10ae5c88b86890c8090ce499d86f.png

These sprites are too good to not use...

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8 hours ago, warheart1992 said:

To be honest the closest you can get to a secondary build on anything somewhat resembling a  supercruiser is either Scharnhorst or Odin.

More so -- Odin. Scharnhorst can tank unbelievably well.

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4 hours ago, Kormoran4472 said:

Graf Spee. Secondaries Now reach 7.1. That's far enough to be impactful, especialy in operations.  She has a heavy (tier six) secondary loadout with four 105's and four150's per side. To bad Mikasa didn't get a buff.

Mikasa is one of the few secondary ships that actually got a big buff, when we look at realistic builds and at captains available for such niche ships :)

 

 

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4 hours ago, Kormoran4472 said:

Graf Spee. Secondaries Now reach 7.1. That's far enough to be impactful, especialy in operations.  She has a heavy (tier six) secondary loadout with four 105's and four150's per side. To bad Mikasa didn't get a buff.

graf spee has the guns but the armor is far from adecuate for a ship going for close range combat

 

the only cruiser i can think off that can go for a close range fight and dont get wreck by large caliber AP is the Hawkins, the bow on that thing is made of BB tears :Smile_veryhappy:

 

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45 minutes ago, vak_ said:

Mikasa is one of the few secondary ships that actually got a big buff, when we look at realistic builds and at captains available for such niche ships :)

 

 

Oklahoma also.  The main selling point of her are her secondaries, and in the old system, secondaries below Tier VII didn't get the max benefit of Old Manual Secs.

But YMMV.  Try getting to use OK secondaries with Sinops, Nelsons around, and KGV burning at range.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Oklahoma also.  The main selling point of her are her secondaries, and in the old system, secondaries below Tier VII didn't get the max benefit of Old Manual Secs.

But YMMV.  Try getting to use OK secondaries with Sinops, Nelsons around, and KGV burning at range.

Yep, that’s the issue. Nice thing about Mikasa is that there is no carriers at that tier, and HE slinging has always been meta there. 

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