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DevilD0g

Carriers penalised for Concealment Captain skill

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under the new captain skills for carrier, "Hidden Menace" or as we all know is "concealment expert" of every other ship genre.  It gets 15% off in concealment and 20% off the damage control times which is nice as others in concealment expert  only get 10% off in concealment only.

But carriers get the added penalty of having their planes return to carrier at 50% less speed.  Who was the dumb turkey that thought that up.  It effectively discriminates against carriers compared to other ships.

We dont see other ship genres given decreased reload times for selecting concealment ???  As the planes are their attacking force or effectively  their guns, they are effectively made to reload slower so again carriers are being nerfed at the expense of other ship types.  While I can see this will make certain factions happy and we dont need a troll line of comments on it.  How fair is it.

I would be quite happy to make the skill "Concealment Expert " with the same values as other ship genres get

But having "hidden Menace" is a double edged sword.  You want the extra concealment but its a trade off you have to make that makes  your planes return back slower to the carrier so its a skill I would prefer NOT to select, but by the same token leaving me more open to attack by being spotted more easily. Sure,  I dont have to select it but why do i have to be put in that position or tactical dilemma, when other ship genres are not, they just think , increased concealment , yes ill  take it , thank  you very much.

how many battleships, cruisers or Destroyers would like it if their "Concealment Expert" came with the price tag of reload times 50% LONGER..  I think not!!.  Planes are the guns of carriers. Thats the analogy.

This new skill needs to be nerfed and remove the 50% return or changed back to what it was before.... As lets face it that is more a level playing field.   We dont need an increase from 10-15% concealment if it means our planes will return for a reload 50% slower !!!  Its nice to have concealment but the price is to high.

Just another penalty mechanic wargamming brings against Carriers in a game that is increasingly Battleship focused.

 

Edited by DevilD0g
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Yeah, so all ships have suffered with the rework - at least WG have been consistant in providing a bit of disappointment to each and every one of the community. 

Yay! :Smile_sad: 

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Apparently the 50% increase in return time starts the moment planes drop their ordinance, meaning they spend 50% time longer climbing to altitude before returning and therefore far more likely to get shot down.

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43 minutes ago, DevilD0g said:

It effectively discriminates against carriers compared to other ships.

About time, considering that they make the game considerably less fun for everybody else.

46 minutes ago, DevilD0g said:

But having "hidden Menace" is a double edged sword.  You want the extra concealment but its a trade off you have to make that makes  your planes return back slower to the carrier so its a skill I would prefer NOT to select, but by the same token leaving me more open to attack by being spotted more easily. Sure,  I dont have to select it but why do i have to be put in that position or tactical dilemma, when other ship genres are not, they just think , increased concealment , yes ill  take it , thank  you very much.

Good. Why shouldn't you be open to attack? Every other class in the game has to deal with being shot at, while carriers hide in the back, dishing out damage and taking nothing in return.

47 minutes ago, DevilD0g said:

We dont need an increase from 10-15% concealment if it means our planes will return for a reload 50% slower !!!  Its nice to have concealment but the price is to high.

Then just don't take the skill. All the other lines have skills that come with trade-offs. If you think the price is too high, don't take it. If you think the benefit is good enough, take it. You can't have both at once, get over it.

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1 hour ago, DevilD0g said:

under the new captain skills for carrier, "Hidden Menace" or as we all know is "concealment expert" of every other ship genre.  It gets 15% off in concealment and 20% off the damage control times which is nice as others in concealment expert  only get 10% off in concealment only.

But carriers get the added penalty of having their planes return to carrier at 50% less speed.  Who was the dumb turkey that thought that up.  It effectively discriminates against carriers compared to other ships.

Because no other ship has planes that can return  :Smile_sceptic:

1 hour ago, DevilD0g said:

We dont see other ship genres given decreased reload times for selecting concealment ???  As the planes are their attacking force or effectively  their guns, they are effectively made to reload slower so again carriers are being nerfed at the expense of other ship types.  While I can see this will make certain factions happy and we dont need a troll line of comments on it.  How fair is it.

Planes can attack from any angle and are not limited by range.  Please don't compare planes to guns, the comparison you make is not valid.

 

1 hour ago, DevilD0g said:

I would be quite happy to make the skill "Concealment Expert " with the same values as other ship genres get

But having "hidden Menace" is a double edged sword.  You want the extra concealment but its a trade off you have to make that makes  your planes return back slower to the carrier so its a skill I would prefer NOT to select, but by the same token leaving me more open to attack by being spotted more easily. Sure,  I dont have to select it but why do i have to be put in that position or tactical dilemma, when other ship genres are not, they just think , increased concealment , yes ill  take it , thank  you very much.

Or you could use that cam to get your CV closer to the front and reduce the return time

 

1 hour ago, DevilD0g said:

how many battleships, cruisers or Destroyers would like it if their "Concealment Expert" came with the price tag of reload times 50% LONGER..  I think not!!.  Planes are the guns of carriers. Thats the analogy.

This new skill needs to be nerfed and remove the 50% return or changed back to what it was before.... As lets face it that is more a level playing field.   We dont need an increase from 10-15% concealment if it means our planes will return for a reload 50% slower !!!  Its nice to have concealment but the price is to high.

Just another penalty mechanic wargamming brings against Carriers in a game that is increasingly Battleship focused.

 

Shhh - Or I'll do the CV too hard to balance - please remove.

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2 hours ago, DevilD0g said:

But having "hidden Menace" is a double edged sword.  You want the extra concealment but its a trade off you have to make that makes  your planes return back slower to the carrier so its a skill I would prefer NOT to select, but by the same token leaving me more open to attack by being spotted more easily. Sure,  I dont have to select it but why do i have to be put in that position or tactical dilemma, when other ship genres are not, they just think , increased concealment , yes ill  take it , thank  you very much.

It's not a double-edged sword at all. It is an executioners sword lopping off your head if you decide to pick the skill because it also severely decreases the speed with which your planes bail which will inevitably kill them off even when faced with bad AA.

That said, it is entirely possible to play perfectly fine without the skill. Simply be more aware of and careful in your positioning.

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The poor thing wanted a buffed concealment expert with no drawbacks while he can attack anyone without fearing retaliation.

Get this guy some warm milk

 

And your attacking planes have the exact same speed. So, any analogy with 50% less reload time is moot.

 

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5 hours ago, DevilD0g said:

It effectively discriminates against carriers compared to other ships.

Does it really though? Are CVs as dependent on concealment as other ships? You know the ones that have no other means of survival other than hiding and hoping the CV doesnt come their way? 

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Ok, the penalty for taking that skill is fine.  You'll just have to play without it and use stealthier CVs.  Now that that is out of the way so that I can't be dinged for being non-constructive...  What exactly is a "genre" of ship?  

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4 hours ago, Laser_Beam said:

Because no other ship has planes that can return  :Smile_sceptic:

Planes can attack from any angle and are not limited by range.  Please don't compare planes to guns, the comparison you make is not valid.

 

Or you could use that cam to get your CV closer to the front and reduce the return time

 

Shhh - Or I'll do the CV too hard to balance - please remove.

Thats right , no other cruiser or battleship has fighters and spotter planes that can return.  *sarcasm*

and yes AA can attack planes  also from any angle, who would have thought.

Planes carry the bombs or the artillery shells or the torpedoes or the artillery shells or the rockets or t he  artillary shells the projectiles with explosives so of course they are the guns.

Your ship carries the guns so the planes carry the ordinance. use your brain.

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So if carriers get a penalty for getting a skill everyone else gets for free, then why arent all other ship genres getting a penalty as well, so yeah it is discrimination against carriers.  Tell me why its not !

Why should i play without it when  you are all getting it for no penalty ..  its not fair

 

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Just now, DevilD0g said:

So if carriers get a penalty for getting a skill everyone else gets for free, then why arent all other ship genres getting a penalty as well, so yeah it is discrimination against carriers.  Tell me why its not !

 

CVs cant be descriminated against, they are not a protected class. 

 

Besides if this is going to be the logic going forward than any other class having access to a skill or module that CVs dont have is discrimination according to your logic right? So why dont carriers have dazzle?

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5 hours ago, DevilD0g said:

Sure,  I dont have to select it but why do i have to be put in that position or tactical dilemma, when other ship genres are not...

 

You're seriously going to play the "but other ships get this" card, for a CV? For a CV?

Excellent trolling my good fellow, 10/10!

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3 minutes ago, DevilD0g said:

So if carriers get a penalty for getting a skill everyone else gets for free, then why arent all other ship genres getting a penalty as well, so yeah it is discrimination against carriers.  Tell me why its not !

 

It is discrimination against carriers, just like they benefit from the discrimination against other ships in some of their abilities.

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11 minutes ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

Does it really though? Are CVs as dependent on concealment as other ships? You know the ones that have no other means of survival other than hiding and hoping the CV doesnt come their way? 

Do you think that CV's are not as dependant on concealment as other ships are ?  Of course they are.  Not everyone plays from the back, only the really inexperienced players sit on the back line.  The closer  you are the faster the reload on planes.

  Do battleships being so big really need concealment expert ?  NO But they have much better defensive 26-34 second reload on main guns and long reaching secondaries and AA so no , they dont really need it and being so big everyone sees them anyway.  I have questioned that on my own battleships using the points for other things as once they are in the battle every one sees them and the skill is useless.

But a carrier with little defensive weapons apart from planes does need concealment with out penalty especially to have less visibility for destroyers its main killer.

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5 minutes ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

CVs cant be descriminated against, they are not a protected class. 

 

Besides if this is going to be the logic going forward than any other class having access to a skill or module that CVs dont have is discrimination according to your logic right? So why dont carriers have dazzle?

Carriers are not a protected class but Of course they can be discriminated against if their ship genre is the only one given a penalty when others are not!!  wake up.

Its one of the few skills that goes across all ship classes but the CV concealment skill gets a penalty, like slowing planes down 50% on return as soon as they drop so yes they are more likely to be shot down and take longer to replace making their reload take longer on returning and longer on replacing.

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I'll let you have your 50% speed if you take away the negative effects of HE and AP damage bonus skills for surface ships. 

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24 minutes ago, DevilD0g said:

Do you think that CV's are not as dependant on concealment as other ships are ?  Of course they are.  Not everyone plays from the back, only the really inexperienced players sit on the back line.  The closer  you are the faster the reload on planes.

  Do battleships being so big really need concealment expert ?  NO But they have much better defensive 26-34 second reload on main guns and long reaching secondaries and AA so no , they dont really need it and being so big everyone sees them anyway.  I have questioned that on my own battleships using the points for other things as once they are in the battle every one sees them and the skill is useless.

But a carrier with little defensive weapons apart from planes does need concealment with out penalty especially to have less visibility for destroyers its main killer.

No they are not, CVs are perfectly effective behind islands or other cover where nobody can hit you and still bully all the surface ships with your planes. BBs cant do that, Cruisers cant do that, DDs cant do that. They all depend on concealment to prevent people from shooting at them. 

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So you're telling me that because your planes are slightly less stealthy because this is no longer a viable skill that weegee is discriminating against CVs? You're joking right? This entire rework has been a huge buff to CVs. The ability to ignore a percentage of torp belt? The Ap ordinance now having even more pen? Couple that with how almost nothing for surface ships changed for the better and I hardly see your argument having any footing at all, the only positive (not for game health mind you) was deadeye for bbs oh and by the way SI is no longer a 3 point skill so all bbs essentially lose a heal charge in addition to gaining something THAT DOESN'T AFFECT CVS AT ALL UNLESS YOU'RE IN A BAD POSITION. I genuinely hope you realize this rework if it was positive for anything was positive for CVs as usual

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6 hours ago, DevilD0g said:

<stuff>

Have you compared base concealment ranges for CV's against other ships of comparable size? CV's already have a concealment buff baked in. 

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The only time I'm interested in seeing CVs in a match is when there's a mission involving shooting down planes and I'd be perfectly happy if WG didn't put in any more missions involving shooting down planes.  

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1 hour ago, DevilD0g said:

But a carrier with little defensive weapons apart from planes does need concealment with out penalty especially to have less visibility for destroyers its main killer.

DDs are little to no threat to a CV. Technically speaking less concealment actually benefits you in this particular scenario since the detection indicator serves as an early warning system.

Aircraft are the outright best defensive weapons in the game, just like they're the best offensive weapon in the game. What are you even complaining about?

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2 hours ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

CVs cant be descriminated against, they are not a protected class.

You owe me for a new keyboard and a cup of french roast.

The laugh was worth it, though.

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