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partridge_in_a_pear_tree

Is it just me or has the rework diminished Battleship impact?

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Hi!

I'm new to the forums. I've been playing on and off for 3 years or so. Only recently have I gotten fairly good at the game. I'm a battleship main, although I dabble in heavy cruisers and destroyers. Never light cruisers or aircraft carriers. Bleck.

Anyway, so far the rework for me has been... polarizing. It's not terrible, and for cruisers and destroyers, I actually quite like the changes. For battleships, though I feel that Deadeye has had some pretty detrimental effects to the entire class. While on paper it's a buff, it encourages poor play to the extent that battleships, I feel, have minimal impact on the game now.

Here's why I feel this is happening. Most battleships default to spending the first critical few minutes of the game playing passively. Then, 3-8 minutes in, a critical point is reached. At this point, the team that is dug in better starts to push. At this point the game is already over. What I mean is that while battleships hang out on the back line, cruisers and destroyers are dictating the outcome of the match. The battleships might throw up some big damage numbers, but by the time they are in position to impact the match, the victor has already been decided.

Now, some stats:

I consider myself a decent player, but it wasn't always this way. I started playing when I was just 14 so obviously I didn't have a grasp of much other than kill the enemy more often than they kill you. Now that I am older, I believe I play the game at a somewhat higher level.

My overall winrate is about 52.65% and rising fast. It's been about a week and a half since the rework hit. My 21 day average win rate is just under 60%, though it's falling quickly now. My 7 day win rate? Just under 53%.

Right now I feel helpless to impact the game the way I did before. Even though i've tried to adapt my play to the rework, my primary difficulty lies with my efforts doing nothing in the face of a team that could go either way. Half the time, they push. Half the time, they don't. Before the rework everyone would kind of push, and whoever did it better, with better positioning and coordination, would win. That way, an individual battleship player could make a big difference. Now it's a toss up. Hilariously, my highest winrate battleship since the rework is Thunderer. Seems quite telling to me. Now that camping is the norm, it makes sense that she does well, because she excels at it.

It doesn't have to be this way. I run deadeye on all my non-brawlers, and I have good success with it. But I don't exclusively camp on the back line, because you don't have to. Simply take advantage whenever it works, but when there's a ship spotted within your detection range, there's no need to panic. Having deadeye active half the time and being a team player will make you leagues better than a player that has deadeye active all the time and sits in the back doing nothing for the team. I just hope people will realize that, because right now, I'm hearing stories of groups of battleships actively running away, like cattle, from cruisers and destroyers that infringe on their precious detection range. Sigh.

I admit that these observations are mine and mine only. It is entirely possible that I am wrong, and I just haven't adapted to rework play. I also think that the 21-day numbers I threw up are potentially skewed because of the french destroyers I grinded immediately after the rework (remember what I said about DDs having outsized impact now). Maybe I've just been unlucky for the last week or so. In any case, I'm very interested to hear your feedback. Have any of you noticed this? What, if anything, have you done about it? Do you think it's a problem? Or anything else you want to say. If you think I'm a moron, go for it! Tell me all about it.

Thanks for reading!

Edited by partridge_in_a_pear_tree
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I believe you have it the nail on the head...Before the rework I posted a (this is the current Meta ) video talking of the passive play . Now it is even worse because the BB is rewarded for passive play(dead eye) but now it punishes cruisers more because they are the recipient of those  more accurate salvos from the BB...

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Conversely though, I’ve seen bbs that push together, I know team work right, can have a massive impact if their peers are sitting back. Flanks get rolled up quick and especially at high tiers that’s ball game when it happens early. I’m not disagreeing, but if you can work together and push when your enemies are sitting back, it’s a roflstomp 

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It doesn't help that the new US BB line has to be a back row camper... these BBs are too fragile, slow and with poor reload are just fodder for HE breathing CAs and any kind of DD that gets close to shoot at them.  Suffered through the MN and now have Vermont.  First game in Vermont, actually trying to stay back, but burned to a crisp by a Conqueror, and I couldn't begin to kill him fast enough...he had close to 60% health left.  New BB line need some serious help.... Combine that with the Deadeye and lots of BBs hanging back.  Took my Mass out w full secondary build and now she feel irrelevant.  My secondaries don't score anywhere near the damage/hits to justify getting close and getting pummelled by the other teams back camping BBs.  Since your one of the few BBs moving up then your the only target also.  I have seen WAY less hard charging Georgias since the Bork.  Sad because secondary BBs were a fun playstyle and it is pretty much gone.

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1 hour ago, ditka_Fatdog said:

Conversely though, I’ve seen bbs that push together, I know team work right, can have a massive impact if their peers are sitting back. Flanks get rolled up quick and especially at high tiers that’s ball game when it happens early. I’m not disagreeing, but if you can work together and push when your enemies are sitting back, it’s a roflstomp 

Very true. I've done secondary build BB divisions with some clanmates, and it's an absolute slaughterhouse. But try whipping out a Georgia for a solo game these days... utter hell.

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I think you’re pretty correct on your points of view. I’ve been confused as to how to BB since the re-work. I tend to be an aggressive player and forcing myself to be even more passive has been difficult. The problem with BB’s in the first few minutes is that they can be  very difficult to disengage and redeploy. You commit to a flank and you are committed. Commit too early and the faster ships with better conceal peace out, and you are focused and burned down ASAP.
 

The game is won and lost by the DD’s and CV. BB puts up big numbers and carry’s sometimes, but really the impact isn’t huge if you lose a BB or two early. Lose your DD’s or CV early, you may as well YOLO and move on. I’ve found BB to be the easiest and most difficult class in the game. Getting a high XP score is easy but having true impact in a match can be difficult.

The rework complicates things a bit. I hope we’ll see some changes in the skill sets that help in rebalancing towards a push oriented game. 

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The rework has made good BB players even stronger because they know when to snipe and damage farm vs push. They can now punish dumber enemy players even worse. 

Campers gonna camp.

Unlike over pens, which act and are intended as a skill disparity normalizer to give mediocre players some buffer the BB perks in the rework do the opposite.

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I didn't see a lot of 'battleships should always brawl' before the rework

I learned a painful message there on the Izmail. I ended up on fire and full of torpedoes.

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On 2/1/2021 at 4:31 PM, partridge_in_a_pear_tree said:

I'm new to the forums. I've been playing on and off for 3 years or so. Only recently have I gotten fairly good at the game. I'm a battleship main, although I dabble in heavy cruisers and destroyers. Never light cruisers or aircraft carriers. Bleck.

Anyway, so far the rework for me has been... polarizing. It's not terrible, and for cruisers and destroyers, I actually quite like the changes. For battleships, though I feel that Deadeye has had some pretty detrimental effects to the entire class. While on paper it's a buff, it encourages poor play to the extent that battleships, I feel, have minimal impact on the game now. 

Here's why I feel this is happening. Most battleships default to spending the first critical few minutes of the game playing passively. Then, 3-8 minutes in, a critical point is reached. At this point, the team that is dug in better starts to push. At this point the game is already over. What I mean is that while battleships hang out on the back line, cruisers and destroyers are dictating the outcome of the match. The battleships might throw up some big damage numbers, but by the time they are in position to impact the match, the victor has already been decided.

The rework has buffed BB influence, although the meta was already in a place that was doing it massively compared to previous years like 2018. Bad BBs do worse now because they don't have the habits to play well and take advantage of things like Deadeye in an optimal fashion (not camping at the back all match), but even good players can get terrible teams who nullify anything they can do toward winning a match. That also happens more and more nowadays, because in this kind of game bad play actually has more influence than good play does, since no respawns/easy focus fire/etc. And well, more and more good/average players quit, replaced by bad players.

As for brawling, it was never a good choice except in select situations, and approaching matches with the idea of brawling whenever possible hasn't been a good idea since around when the DKM BB line dropped many years ago. I used to primarily play that way way back then - it was immensely gratifying to 1v3 other BBs and sink 2 and make the other slink away in defeat, but those days are over; the meta no longer allows for it if you want to win.

Edited by MnemonScarlet

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2 hours ago, MnemonScarlet said:

The rework has buffed BB influence, although the meta was already in a place that was doing it massively compared to previous years like 2018. Bad BBs do worse now because they don't have the habits to play well and take advantage of things like Deadeye in an optimal fashion (not camping at the back all match), but even good players can get terrible teams who nullify anything they can do toward winning a match. That also happens more and more nowadays, because in this kind of game bad play actually has more influence than good play does, since no respawns/easy focus fire/etc. And well, more and more good/average players quit, replaced by bad players.

As for brawling, it was never a good choice except in select situations, and approaching matches with the idea of brawling whenever possible hasn't been a good idea since around when the DKM BB line dropped many years ago. I used to primarily play that way way back then - it was immensely gratifying to 1v3 other BBs and sink 2 and make the other slink away in defeat, but those days are over; the meta no longer allows for it if you want to win.

That's not quite true, prior to 10.0, I did exceptionally well in brawls.

I'm a 52.5% winrate player, but my winrate in Massachusetts and Scharnhorst is >65%, with about 100 games played on each.

The key to brawling was to do it properly. By using islands to cut off certain portions of the map from firing at you, carefully weighing when to move up based on enemy positioning, and targeting ships in a stepwise fashion (one after another), it was quite possible to do very well in ships like that. If you played your cards right, few ships could kill you in a 1 on 1, especially if you had support, which I found was pretty likely if you led the charge. To see what I mean, check out some of Potato Quality's videos from before the patch. He takes this concept to the extreme. Of course I'm nowhere close to him skill-wise, but he clearly demonstrates the playstyle I'm talking about, and at a Super-Unicum level.

Now that's not possible anymore. If you try to move up at all in a battleship, you instantly become a focus target, since other people aren't pushing anymore either. There always used to be a few battleships ships that would push at the beginning, now it's very few, if any. Using islands to cut off enemy fire does not work nearly as good at it used to, because there are far more HE spammers and enemy battleships hidden behind islands, so there's always someone that will be able to shoot at you. With no better target, even a cruiser 20km away firing over two islands will take the shot. Finally, CVs will focus you down a ton. I probably die to carriers in 40-50% of carrier games now, seriously. Most importantly, the targets that used to be so juicy (and taking them down meant winning games) all hide much more than they used to. Cruisers venturing near caps and battleships pushing is rare to see now. You can push, and the enemy will also be so far back that you won't have a target.

I'm definitely bitter about the loss of such combat. That's what made the game fun for me, outplaying people at medium range and securing victory. Sure, I can sail around in Thunderer now and rack up huge damage totals, but I don't necessarily want to. It's much more stale gameplay-wise.

The only saving grace I have found thus far is doing divisions of brawling battleships. By all pushing at once, the Deadeye peasants in the back of the map can't do much to stop your horde, and you can mercilessly slaughter them one by one. It's a lot of fun, but getting a div together of 3 players with brawling experience doesn't happen every day. I used to be able to take Massa for a spin any old time, now it's for special occasions and Ranked/Clan Brawls only.

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On 2/1/2021 at 9:54 PM, Pirate_Named_Sue said:

I think you’re pretty correct on your points of view. I’ve been confused as to how to BB since the re-work. I tend to be an aggressive player and forcing myself to be even more passive has been difficult. The problem with BB’s in the first few minutes is that they can be  very difficult to disengage and redeploy. You commit to a flank and you are committed. Commit too early and the faster ships with better conceal peace out, and you are focused and burned down ASAP.
 

The game is won and lost by the DD’s and CV. BB puts up big numbers and carry’s sometimes, but really the impact isn’t huge if you lose a BB or two early. Lose your DD’s or CV early, you may as well YOLO and move on. I’ve found BB to be the easiest and most difficult class in the game. Getting a high XP score is easy but having true impact in a match can be difficult.

The rework complicates things a bit. I hope we’ll see some changes in the skill sets that help in rebalancing towards a push oriented game. 

Exactly. Prior to 10.0, we had a brief honeymoon of push-oriented gameplay. It was really a breath of fresh air from the HE spam meta of yesteryear, and it actually gave battleships a decent amount of influence, if played correctly. Now it's gone again, just like that. Unless Wargaming makes some changes to the skill, we might be back to high-tier passivity forever.

Edited by partridge_in_a_pear_tree

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18 minutes ago, partridge_in_a_pear_tree said:

That's not quite true, prior to 10.0, I did exceptionally well in brawls.

I'm a 52.5% winrate player, but my winrate in Massachusetts and Scharnhorst is >65%, with about 100 games played on each.

The key to brawling was to do it properly. By using islands to cut off certain portions of the map from firing at you, carefully weighing when to move up based on enemy positioning, and targeting ships in a stepwise fashion (one after another), it was quite possible to do very well in ships like that. If you played your cards right, few ships could kill you in a 1 on 1, especially if you had support, which I found was pretty likely if you led the charge. To see what I mean, check out some of Potato Quality's videos from before the patch. He takes this concept to the extreme. Of course I'm nowhere close to him skill-wise, but he clearly demonstrates the playstyle I'm talking about, and at a Super-Unicum level.

Now that's not possible anymore. If you try to move up at all in a battleship, you instantly become a focus target, since other people aren't pushing anymore either. There always used to be a few battleships ships that would push at the beginning, now it's very few, if any. Using islands to cut off enemy fire does not work nearly as good at it used to, because there are far more HE spammers and enemy battleships hidden behind islands, so there's always someone that will be able to shoot at you. With no better target, even a cruiser 20km away firing over two islands will take the shot. Finally, CVs will focus you down a ton. I probably die to carriers in 40-50% of carrier games now, seriously. Most importantly, the targets that used to be so juicy (and taking them down meant winning games) all hide much more than they used to. Cruisers venturing near caps and battleships pushing is rare to see now. You can push, and the enemy will also be so far back that you won't have a target.

I'm definitely bitter about the loss of such combat. That's what made the game fun for me, outplaying people at medium range and securing victory. Sure, I can sail around in Thunderer now and rack up huge damage totals, but I don't necessarily want to. It's much more stale gameplay-wise.

The only saving grace I have found thus far is doing divisions of brawling battleships. By all pushing at once, the Deadeye peasants in the back of the map can't do much to stop your horde, and you can mercilessly slaughter them one by one. It's a lot of fun, but getting a div together of 3 players with brawling experience doesn't happen every day. I used to be able to take Massa for a spin any old time, now it's for special occasions and Ranked/Clan Brawls only.

I also still have brawls and I even win brawls in non-brawling BBs with Deadeye deactivated (Yamato, Roma, Fusou, etc) vs brawling ones, using terrain to let me bully isolated ships without getting focused. What I am saying is going into a match with the mindset of 'I will win this match because I brawled all those guys down' is not something that happens anymore, and that predates the captain rework. Even unicums who do it still only get to do it cause the enemy team screws up and gives them a succession of easy targets based on bad positioning, but that is dependant on enemy team play, not their play. Brawlers don't create situations like that, they exploit them.

A long time ago in this game we had an overall less campy meta, but that was before you even started playing (when German BBs came out was a good example). Deadeye's impact has made it even campier than it was before, but we never really got that back from the old days, and I can't see what WG can do that will bring it back. The meta is what it is due to playerbase perception, and people weight risk less and less. That's why my playstyle has changed over the years from 'push to win' to 'leverage long range until a really good situation for pushing comes up'.

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6 hours ago, MnemonScarlet said:

I also still have brawls and I even win brawls in non-brawling BBs with Deadeye deactivated (Yamato, Roma, Fusou, etc) vs brawling ones, using terrain to let me bully isolated ships without getting focused. What I am saying is going into a match with the mindset of 'I will win this match because I brawled all those guys down' is not something that happens anymore, and that predates the captain rework. Even unicums who do it still only get to do it cause the enemy team screws up and gives them a succession of easy targets based on bad positioning, but that is dependant on enemy team play, not their play. Brawlers don't create situations like that, they exploit them.

A long time ago in this game we had an overall less campy meta, but that was before you even started playing (when German BBs came out was a good example). Deadeye's impact has made it even campier than it was before, but we never really got that back from the old days, and I can't see what WG can do that will bring it back. The meta is what it is due to playerbase perception, and people weight risk less and less. That's why my playstyle has changed over the years from 'push to win' to 'leverage long range until a really good situation for pushing comes up'.

Of course brawling has always been about exploiting enemy screw ups. But what I see from this patch is substituting one form of bad play (poor positioning close in) for another (hanging back on the B and C lines). My problem with this is not in principle, bad play is bad play. The problem I have with it is that it eliminates the battleship role in being the punisher of said poor play. Battleships, at least for the average player, now take the role of back-line damage dealers with marginal game impact at best.

This leaves destroyers and cruisers to do the actual winning. Now, whether this is a good thing or a bad thing depends on what kind of gameplay you enjoy. Someone could easily make the argument that immediately prior to 10.0 battleships had too much power in high tier games. That it was too easy for an average player to master the relative simplicity of battleship play and wreck face. It certainly wasn't an easy time for light cruisers, which went being meta ships to almost nonexistent in the course of a year or so. And with DDs being even harder to play with sky cancer flying around, you could also point to their diminishing influence as a rationale for cutting back battleship influence.

I admit that the argument I am making is biased in favor of battleship play not for purely logical, statistical, or spreadsheet reasons. The argument I'm making is that I think a large portion of the community finds close-in action to be a lot more fun and dynamic than a repetetive, stepwise meta where destroyers occupy the front lines, cruisers the middle, and battleships the back. To me, my favorite class has just been made a whole lot less fun to play. I admit that this post was primarily driven by my bitterness to that loss. The main reason I went through with it is because I think a lot of players feel similarly.

Finally to your point about the meta being controlled by the playerbase, I mostly agree. The vast difference in ideal playstyle between the NA, EU, RU, and SEA servers is proof of this. But Wargaming must quit denying that they have zero influence over the playstyle. If you add a skill that rewards people for being a certain distance back, it's incredibly predictable than your Average Joe Battleship Captain will try to take advantage of it, and most will do it by staying further back than they need to for longer than they need to. This is basic psychology. For an extreme example that demonstrates what I'm talking about, It's the same mechanism by which New York City reduced violent crime in the 1990s via urban renewal, People are people, but they are quite susceptible to external pressure, even if they don't realize it. Wargaming needs to understand that they have power over how people play, and in this case they negligently flipped the meta upside down with a simple change that probably didn't get enough testing. Typical. Even if they rolled back Deadeye tomorrow, I think the new mindset would be pretty hard to shake, and it would take a little while for the old ways to come back.

In closing, I will say that overall I do not think the rework was a bad thing. For both cruisers and destroyers, I actually think the changes benefited them quite a bit. Also, the complaints about secondary battleship nerfs are baseless, if anything the build itself is stronger with the reload buff skill at 4 points. However as I pointed out earlier the new, campy playstyle makes it obsolete, even if it would have been plenty powerful in the old meta. I just really disagree with the implementation of the Deadeye skill, and I very much hope Wargaming will be looking at it closely over the coming months for potential adjustments.

 

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Battleships rely on spotting to have an impact.  Unless the concealment system is totally revamped, DDs will always have the biggest impact on the game as they are stealth spotters.  Whichever team loses all their DDs first is gonna lose the game 99% of the time, whereas you can lose 100% of you BBs and still win if you have some skilled DDs left to just torp their whole team.

Now because of the meta there are less cruisers as well, so even less for BBs to really shoot at, making DDs have an even more outsized impact, and it just enters a feedback loop.  Deadeye isn't OP, but it is encouraging unhealthy gameplay.  They need to buff BB secondaries, improve Cruiser survivability/radar, and in my opinion, make DD torps less deadly so people won't be terrified to push up.  Then BBs will really start to have a real impact in the brawling battles and more people will pick Cruisers as they have bit meaty BBs to follow behind in the push.

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BBs are the easiest ship for low-moderate skill players to post big individual numbers in and the hardest ship to play well enough to help your team win.  Reworks haven't changed that.

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People sit on the back line and snipe because they have zero map awareness and or no clue in regards to proper positioning.   They also fail to realize a BB's role is to do damage AND tank damage.   

In the past players that insisted on camping on the back line were rewarded with low damage and low win rates.  Now they have a skill that literally makes them believe they belong back there.  The best part is mos of them are terrible at aiming so the tight dispersion deadeye gives probably lowers their chance to hit anything. 

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Oh and playing the new usn bb line does not mean you have to sit on the back line either you just need to be aware of your surroundings so you can start pushing/kiting sooner than everyone else.

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Hey

BB play these days just keep getting worse and worse.  Wargaming has nerf'd the effectiveness of BB's so much with all of the HE spam that no BB's push up to help the team because they get farmed to death, the cant kill DDs since the 10% damage, they over pen cruisers and it's rare to dev strike anything, and then the fires burn down a BB in relatively short order, and then there was the CV rework which most people truly hate, and now the Capt. rework has put in Deadeye and all of a sudden all the BB's sit even further in the rear and snipe.  They ruined German BB secondary effectiveness so they can't push in a brawl like they once could, so the BB game play has become stagnant, relatively boring and how many times have you been 1/2 way throw a game only to see BB's either still in spawn or hiding behind islands while you in a DD or cruiser is getting shot to pieces.  Now wonder there are so many blow out games when 1/2 the ships are pushing, just trying to milk damage.  Bring back the tanky, brawling BB's.  Limit fire damage on BB's and give them an immunity time before resetting fires and let their secondary's be even more effective so they can push and support as they should.   Wargaming created this mess, fix it.

 

Pete

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21 minutes ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

BB play these days just keep getting worse and worse.  Wargaming has nerf'd the effectiveness of BB's so much with all of the HE spam that no BB's push up to help the team because they get farmed to death, the cant kill DDs since the 10% damage, they over pen cruisers and it's rare to dev strike anything, and then the fires burn down a BB in relatively short order, and then there was the CV rework which most people truly hate, and now the Capt. rework has put in Deadeye and all of a sudden all the BB's sit even further in the rear and snipe.  They ruined German BB secondary effectiveness so they can't push in a brawl like they once could, so the BB game play has become stagnant, relatively boring and how many times have you been 1/2 way throw a game only to see BB's either still in spawn or hiding behind islands while you in a DD or cruiser is getting shot to pieces.  Now wonder there are so many blow out games when 1/2 the ships are pushing, just trying to milk damage.  Bring back the tanky, brawling BB's.  Limit fire damage on BB's and give them an immunity time before resetting fires and let their secondary's be even more effective so they can push and support as they should.   Wargaming created this mess, fix it.

 

Pete

WOW has intentionally created a camping meta that favors low(er) skill weekend and wallet warrior play.  WOW is not interested in making a better game.  WOW only cares about making the game more profitable.  WOW greed is terminal.  It's not going to get better.

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2 minutes ago, nhf said:

WOW has intentionally created a camping meta that favors low(er) skill weekend and wallet warrior play.  WOW is not interested in making a better game.  WOW only cares about making the game more profitable.  WOW greed is terminal.  It's not going to get better.

Hey

I would have to agree.  Look at how many crappy, sub par, meh ships they pump out these days and yet people have asked, and asked for new scenario's and nothing is put out.  Remember back in the early days when you got a container it was 5, 5 ,5 items now it's only 2 or 3 at best in each container.  All of the changes during the CV rework (loss of concealment, loss of AFT 20% AA gun range, loss of AA guns, loss of MFAA, loss to DFAA skill) which nobody asked for, now the capt rework and again nobody asked for it.  Just wait till subs come out, then another capt rework so subs can have their own skill tree like they did with CV's.  The game play gets more and more stagnant, uninteresting.  Or, as I always say, the more Wargaming tries to balance the game, the more unbalanced it becomes. 


Pete

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22 minutes ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

I would have to agree.  Look at how many crappy, sub par, meh ships they pump out these days and yet people have asked, and asked for new scenario's and nothing is put out.  Remember back in the early days when you got a container it was 5, 5 ,5 items now it's only 2 or 3 at best in each container.  All of the changes during the CV rework (loss of concealment, loss of AFT 20% AA gun range, loss of AA guns, loss of MFAA, loss to DFAA skill) which nobody asked for, now the capt rework and again nobody asked for it.  Just wait till subs come out, then another capt rework so subs can have their own skill tree like they did with CV's.  The game play gets more and more stagnant, uninteresting.  Or, as I always say, the more Wargaming tries to balance the game, the more unbalanced it becomes


Pete

That's just it: Wargaming is not trying to "balance" the game.  Wargaming is trying to make the game more profitable regardless game impact.  WOW is not trying to make a better game as the primary goal.  This is obvious.

Edited by nhf
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No it hasn't, maybe individual players, but not overall.  There are a lot more BBs now wanting to play with deadeye.  The real sufferers are the cruisers and there are a lot less of them because they really can't compete with the long range meta so no one plays them.  Among those that still do play cruisers there are lots of Super cruisers like Alaska and they wind up getting played like BBs (even tho they're not).  In this environment its the DDs that have the most impact through sustained vision control.  If the DD screening the BBs goes down, those BBs are basically forced to disengage, this is what causes the backline sniping not Deadeye.

Individual BB impact may be down simply because there are so many more of them now, but the real impact is and has always been from the DDs.

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On 2/23/2021 at 2:09 PM, HallaSnackbar said:

Oh and playing the new usn bb line does not mean you have to sit on the back line either you just need to be aware of your surroundings so you can start pushing/kiting sooner than everyone else.

The problem is that the new USN BBs are significantly worse at pushing than the Colorado, or than the USN fast battleship line.

Just being at a lower tier is a bit of an advantage for Colorado, since the cruisers it faces have less range, less overall firepower, and are a lot less likely to have 19 point captains, which makes the poor armor scheme less punishing. As you go to tier 8+ in the new USN line, the armor is not improved in any significant way, the ships still sit high in the water, and everything but the turrets takes full penetrations from HE and cruiser AP — the problem is no different from the tier 6 and 7 USN BBs, but the DPM the tier 8+ faces is a lot higher, meaning that the effective protection levels actually get worse as you go up.

The fast BBs are better protected since they are narrower, sit lower, and have less exposed area that is easily farmed with HE or cruiser AP. The new BBs also lake the improved Repair Party that other USN BBs get, even though they are not better protected in any other way.

The bad reload speed also hurts a lot in pushing. If you're fighting at 10 km or less, you'll rarely get to fire all turrets, but you will frequently need to reload rapidly, so in most fights the new BBs are just worse than either the Colorado or the fast BBs.

The new USN line is both more vulnerable and less effective when pushing, but it's weaknesses don't really matter if you're camping on the backline. It should really get the same repair party and reload rate as the rest of the USN BBs, and slightly improved deck and belt armor to make it a bit less vulnerable to damage farming.WG basically designed a BB line to push even less than other BBs, since it is less survivable in close and has less firepower when in close.

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On 2/28/2021 at 5:23 PM, inktomi19d said:

The bad reload speed also hurts a lot in pushing.

This is compounded by the slow turrets. If your target is close with rapidly changing angles, good luck getting a shot off even if the guns are loaded.

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On 3/4/2021 at 4:06 PM, Sabot_100 said:

This is compounded by the slow turrets. If your target is close with rapidly changing angles, good luck getting a shot off even if the guns are loaded.

Hey

I think Wargaming should have made the Alt. American BB line a good secondary BB, with a good rudder shift to compensate for their low speed, so maybe they could push in and use the secondary guns to be rather effective is dealing with DD's and cruisers, they should lower the main gun reload to about 33 seconds and then have fast reloading secondary's.  They will still be impressively slow, inflexible but a benefit to the team if they can pushin and brawl due to effective guns and AA.  But NO, we have something so inflexible, boring, and worthless that they arent even fun to play when your forced to sit in the back because of such slow speed, rather weak armor, and stupidly punishing long reload.  Why play them when there are much better BB's that can benefit the team.

 

Pete

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