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CorradoG60

Make Secondaries Great AGAIN!

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Why did the geniuses at WG think it would be a good idea to nerf the @$#% out of secondary ships???

I bought the following ships because I love the brawler secondary game play:

Massachusetts, Odin, Shiny Horse, Georgia, Bismarck, Grosser Kurfurst, Pommern, Alsace even the Graf Zeppelin.

And now they are complete and utter garbage. Why did WG do this??? Why ruin the game play and screw the meta with long range sniping camping trash?

I would love to get the money back for the premiums I bought for the brawler/secondary (as they were sold) role and are no longer viable.

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Spreadsheet says otherwise...?

In any case; a secondary build now wouldn’t necessarily be worse, but there’s this fly in the soup called Dead Eye.

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5 hours ago, CorradoG60 said:

And now they are complete and utter garbage. Why did WG do this??? Why ruin the game play and screw the meta with long range sniping camping trash?

Have you actually played them? If you use the right skills they are as good, if not better brawlers now. The 10% reduction for main battery reload when in second battery range, is a great brawling asset. So you get a little less accuracy from your secondaries (manual only, meaning the one you target since there really is no more manual) but you can make up for the loss of HP by the increased DPM of your mains and secondaries maintain firing at other ships at the same time you are targeting another for added accuracy. Getting that shot off before the other guy can mean life and death. I would rather hit a ship with one main gun volley than 3 secondary ones anyway. There are also more Battleship lines that can benefit from a secondary build now. I've even got a secondary build on my Thunderer now. I think the Germans took a slight hit on distance, from what I hear but haven't played them so I don't really know. I don't think that the secondary build is so ruined as you do.

Why are you down-voting? you don't agree? Use your thinking minds and not your sheeple minds.

Edited by Sovereigndawg
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Just now, Estimated_Prophet said:

Spreadsheet says otherwise...?

In any case; a secondary build now wouldn’t necessarily be worse, but there’s this fly in the soup called Dead Eye.

is more than just dead eye, WG keeps nerfing close range combat by increacing damage output and reducing defences effectiveness, Secondary builds  took more than just a dispersion nerf to their accuracy

Edited by pepe_trueno
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3 minutes ago, pepe_trueno said:

WG keeps nerfing close range combat by increacing damage output while nerfing defences.

How did they do what you are claiming, did I miss something? I don't quite understand what you are saying here.

Edited by Sovereigndawg
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Just now, Sovereigndawg said:

How did they do what you are claiming, did I miss something? I don't quite understand what you are saying here.

words didnt come out right, will try to make it more clear.

overall they nerfed defences:

Secondary builds had an inbuild AA buff wich was a welcome adition for a ship that wants to push and even if it was not great any extra help is welcome when you want to play agresive and the CV wants you dead.

secondary builds already strugled with captain points and with skills like superintendent, adrenaline rush and designated target costing 1 more point things got even harder

many builds got a buff to their damage, -10% accuracy here, 5% increaced damage there, torpedos ignore % of torpedo protection, etc...    

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Secondaries are still a good build... BBs got the silver spoon with the rework along with, DDs.

Cruisers on the other hand, got the torp in the fantail treatment with the recent rework.

 

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Cutting the accuracy in half completely ruined secondary BB's no matter how you look at it. 

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36 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

Secondaries are still a good build... BBs got the silver spoon with the rework along with, DDs.

Cruisers on the other hand, got the torp in the fantail treatment with the recent rework.

 

While you're not exactly wrong on the treatment of BBs and DDs in the rework, and you're not exactly wrong on cruisers either, I'm not sure what they could have done for cruisers.

Could they have included things like Basics of Survivability and Fire Prevention?  Sure, but those are mostly really only used by super cruisers.  

What about Heavy HE/SAP Shells?  It seems to benefit mostly ultra-light CLs, i.e. those CLs armed with DD grade guns.  Could they have adjusted the gun size cut-off upward a bit to include  6" guns but nothing larger?  Sure, I suppose.

I'm not a fan of the Outnumbered skill.  As others have pointed out, it's not really a skill that you want to trigger, since it means that you're out of position.    And honestly, I'm not sure what could replace Outnumbered in the cruiser tree.

OTOH, the Top Grade Gunner skill really shouldn't be all that bad, at least for cruisers that are willing to fight while spotted.   At the same time, an 8% buff to main gun reload seems pretty damned weak to me.  For example, for a cruiser with a 15 sec reload, that amounts to a buff of only 1.2 seconds, which is hardly impressive.  I'd think that this skill would need to be more like a 10-15% buff to be decent.

 

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12 minutes ago, CorradoG60 said:

Cutting the accuracy in half completely ruined secondary BB's no matter how you look at it. 

Being able to engage any enemy ships within secondary range without having to select them is a nice benefit.  Not a full replacement for what was lost, but nothing to sneeze at.  Also, the accuracy was only cut in half for tier 7-10 ships.  Ships that are tier 6 and below are actually better off.

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8 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Being able to engage any enemy ships within secondary range without having to select them is a nice benefit.  Not a full replacement for what was lost, but nothing to sneeze at.  Also, the accuracy was only cut in half for tier 7-10 ships.  Ships that are tier 6 and below are actually better off.

You cannot run a full secondary build below tier 7. Having the guns fire wildly on both sides is useless unless they actually hit something.

I had a battle today in my Odin and had a Kagero on my port side 6km away and he stayed there knowing that my secondaries weren't going to hit him. 

He was low health and before the patch I would have set my seconderies and forgot about him but this time I hit him 3 times in a matter of 40 to 50 seconds. 

I call [edited] on that.

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-8% reload to main guns while in secondary range isn't so bad

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1 hour ago, pepe_trueno said:

Secondary builds had an inbuild AA buff wich was a welcome adition for a ship that wants to push and even if it was not great any extra help is welcome when you want to play agresive and the CV wants you dead.

Very true, from what I see, AA went from AA and Secondaries, to either just AA and AA plus mains skills. So builds went from basically just 2 main builds with a few variances, to 3 main builds with a few variances. For BBs I think that WG did what they said and made it so people can make more diverse builds. That being said, not just giving each commander a 2 point boost and making Elite commanders not Elite any more has cut into the build. You really need those 2 points to make any build as good as it was and now it's really out of reach. I will never spend cash to get the next 2 points for any commander. The amount of time it will take me to get the same number of Elite commanders as I had pre-re-work will take about 10 years.

 

1 hour ago, pepe_trueno said:

secondary builds already strugled with captain points and with skills like superintendent, adrenaline rush and designated target costing 1 more point things got even harder

True also, but that is build diversity, you have to give something for something. In a compromise neither side comes out truly happy. I think we again come to the point that WG didn't add 2 points to all commanders. You need those 2 points to be what you were, now you either have to pay for them or work them off, when you already had them once. My biggest problem is that the work is way too much and by the time that I do happen to work off the extra points. I will have to pay something (cash or XPs) to use them because the free skill reset will be long over. I have to give the develop team credit, they thought out this skill rework pretty good and I didn't expect that. The rework is of course a complete cash grab but that is not necessarily the dev teams fault, they get paid to do what they are told and when it comes down to it this game is made to line someones pockets.

1 hour ago, pepe_trueno said:

many builds got a buff to their damage, -10% accuracy here, 5% increaced damage there, torpedos ignore % of torpedo protection, etc..

I find that most skills tend to have to pay in other areas (get this but lose this) where secondary skills do not Granny just died, can not finish, talking to family she was 102+.

Edited by Sovereigndawg

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2 hours ago, CorradoG60 said:

Why did the geniuses at WG think it would be a good idea to nerf the @$#% out of secondary ships???

I bought the following ships because I love the brawler secondary game play:

Massachusetts, Odin, Shiny Horse, Georgia, Bismarck, Grosser Kurfurst, Pommern, Alsace even the Graf Zeppelin.

And now they are complete and utter garbage. Why did WG do this??? Why ruin the game play and screw the meta with long range sniping camping trash?

I would love to get the money back for the premiums I bought for the brawler/secondary (as they were sold) role and are no longer viable.

I have all those ships except the CV . There not garbage by a long shot but they are not as good as they were and a real bummer that they were nerfed like that . But all the good players complained about secondary ships because they said it takes no skill to play them . There lumped them into the CV to easy to play threads . Don't agree but they don't like anything that's to easy to play messes with there win rate 

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2 hours ago, pepe_trueno said:

is more than just dead eye, WG keeps nerfing close range combat by increacing damage output and reducing defences effectiveness, Secondary builds  took more than just a dispersion nerf to their accuracy

FYI, secondary build effectiveness was increased, not decreased.  It just wasn't increased as much as the HE spam and camping BBs were so it feels like a nerf.

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9 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

FYI, secondary build effectiveness was increased, not decreased.  It just wasn't increased as much as the HE spam and camping BBs were so it feels like a nerf.

Not sure that I'd go so far as to say that sec build effectiveness was improved, but I don't think that the nerfing was as bad as some make it out to be.

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5 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Not sure that I'd go so far as to say that sec build effectiveness was improved, but I don't think that the nerfing was as bad as some make it out to be.

Their effectiveness vs DDs and CLs has decreased to the point I cant recommend them to buy as a secondary spec anymore. They still are fun, but they can no longer keep DDs and CLs at bay in randoms. 

edit: I will probably respec them all to main battery/survival after the free respec period.

also I believe that was WG's intention. So gj.... WG it worked. They did not want them to able to hold DDs off, as well as they did.

Edited by Rollingonit

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Just now, Helstrem said:

FYI, secondary build effectiveness was increased, not decreased.  It just wasn't increased as much as the HE spam and camping BBs were so it feels like a nerf.

they no longer get AA buffs

they have less accuracy

they require more points to work

how is that a buff? shooting from both sides is a bad joke, in most case scenario it means you are in a terrible position if both sides are firing

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2 hours ago, Sovereigndawg said:

Have you actually played them? If you use the right skills they are as good, if not better brawlers now. The 10% reduction for main battery reload when in second battery range, is a great brawling asset. So you get a little less accuracy from your secondaries (manual only, meaning the one you target since there really is no more manual) but you can make up for the loss of HP by the increased DPM of your mains and secondaries maintain firing at other ships at the same time you are targeting another for added accuracy. Getting that shot off before the other guy can mean life and death. I would rather hit a ship with one main gun volley than 3 secondary ones anyway. There are also more Battleship lines that can benefit from a secondary build now. I've even got a secondary build on my Thunderer now. I think the Germans took a slight hit on distance, from what I hear but haven't played them so I don't really know. I don't think that the secondary build is so ruined as you do.

I dont believe this for a second. I have done extensive testing in live randoms and in training room and have found its a definitive nerf.  

 

Wargaming did the typical Sell you the high points but gloss over the low points.  Yes they increased the range of guns (good) but its an irrelevant change because they nerfed accuracy /dispersion of the guns (BAD).  They claimed that guns now shoot off both sides of ships! (good) but they neglect to tell you that you will have a sub 10% hit rate on non focused guns and they stole your AA / SEcondary combo captain skills and made them separate. 

Wargaming also took the commander skill from -60% dispersion and knocked it down to -35% dispersion which is horrible.  Yes they buffed the germans some to help raise INNATE dispersion but  pre 10.0 ships are far more accurate and deadly with secondaries than post 10.0 ships are.

People keep saying that BBs got the buffs in commander rework. I agree IF you want to play a passive sniper and fling HE from 24 KM.

What deadeye has done is completely killed the brawling classes. Every map  has some cover but whats happening now is ships are not playing mid range anymore. BBs are playing max range and lobbing shells from max distance. This causes two problems. Secondaries are significantly less accurate at range (if they can even reach the BBs sniping) and second is the increased accuracy of BBs is murdering secondary ships which NEVER get concealment cause it cant be afforded as they try to push up.

DD's are virtually immune to secondary damage unless they are sub 5km range.  TEst it out if you dont believe me.  Take a random match and focus your guns strictly on DD's and see what your hit rate is at the end of the match.  Its atrocious. Most of them are sub 10% hit rates.  I cant say whether its dazzle or the dispersion nerf that WG gave us, but its horrid.

To build secondary, you have to give up so much.  The secondary  build relies so heavily on the ability to survive in order to be viable, yet you cannot afford most of the defensive skills because of the insane cost of the secondary skills.   Lets look at it.

 

Here's a common breakdown of secondary build skills:

 

4 -  Fire prevention - MUST HAVE

4 - Improved Secondary Battery - Must Have (-35% to dispersion)

3 - Long Range Second Batery - Must Have  (+20% range on secondaries)

2  - Whatever Tier 2 skill you choose (most of the time priority target so you can see when DD switches from guns to torps).

1  - Whatever Tier 1 skill you choose

 

That is 14 points required right out of the gate.

Assuming you have a 21 point captain which virtually nobody but the 1% will have that leaves you with 7 skills.  With those 7 points you have to choose between:

4 - Concealment Expert

4 - Emergency Repair Expert (extra heals)

4 - Close Quarters Combat  (faster secondary guns by 10%)

3 - Adrenaline Rush

3 - Enhanced Torpedo Protection

3 - Basics of Survivability

2 - Vigilance - Torpedo Spotting

 

I would consider the ones in bold to be essential to a secondary ship but There is no way to get them all, even with a 21 point captain.  The pricing is just too expensive for secondary skills. They leave you crippled.   a Sniping ship can get EVERYTHING they need and give up nothing.

 

4 - Deadeye

4 - Fire Preventiion

4 - Conealment

3 - Adrenaline Rush

2 - Piority Target

1 - Whatever tier 1 skill they choose.

 

Thats 18 skill points and still leaves you 3 more to get something like basics of survivability.   Thats insane. 

 

Then you get into nation specific issues about why secondary skills dont work anymore and how they are not viable as snipers.

 

Germans: 

The GK legendary module gives reduced main gun reload, increased secondary firing rate at the expense of main gun distance. 19 KM when using the legendary module is not gonna cut it. Almost every other ship out there can shoot 3-4 km further. Not to mention even if you tried to build a GK as a sniper which is incredibly stupid you have to expose almost complete broadside to bring all 4 turrets to bear. You are a floating piece of kindling and your sigma / dispersion  are hot garbage so even if you managed to get the range up, your not gonna be able to content with ships like Yamato, Thunderer, Conq, Bourgone, etc... in distance gunfights.  

Gunther Lutjens commander has rate of fire proc as special skill.  What is the point of this?  They clearly intended germans to be brawlers, but for reasons stated above, they are absolutely ineffective. at it.  4 Heals, sluggish turn rates on the ship, worst Torpedo belt of any BB line, 2nd worst AA of any BB line, Terrible firing angles, terrible dispersion / sigma.  Long cooldown on hydro   German BBs are nothing more than HP pinata's designed to be farmed wile the real ships do the work.  Nobody is afraid of the GK even if it closes the distance.

 

This captain rework has completely crippled and killed the German BB line.

 

 

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IN REGARDS TO OVERALL SECONDARY ACCURACY, NOT THE OVERALL EFFECTIVENESS OF SAID SECONDARIES BUILDS.....Yes, secondaries accuracy has been all but killed in this patch. You can't even reliably hit a battleship at 6km, let alone a destroyer at 2km in battleships without "improved dispersion". And even THOSE battleships with improved dispersion are seeing accuracy reductions across the board. YES, there's that "famed" -10% main battery reload that everyone's clamoring to in defense of how WG screwed over secondaries builds (again, screwed over in terms of accuracy only, and well, loss of AA buffs completely), but I mean, in terms of the SECONDARIES system itself (the secondary guns and naught else), yes, secondaries THEMSELVES are nerfed due to the loss in accuracy, and no, the range increase or firing both sides does NOT seem to really compensate for the accuracy loss.

Now, why am I trying to make this so abundantly clear? Because there are people on here that seem to confuse what I'm saying as "Oh, secondaries accuracy is really bad, so the BUILD is bad". That's not exactly what I'm saying, (although I AM saying that secondaries accuracy as it is right now is atrocious, yes) and the only reason I'm not saying that the secondaries builds are at a net nerf is because that would take WAY TOO MUCH to actually test, far too many variables to account for. Because if you're evaluating the WHOLE build, now you're dealing with main battery fire, varying distances between targets, fires, number of secondaries on target at any given time, etc, etc. And unfortunately, I don't think ANYONE has test data of this kind of rigorous testing from pre-patch, so how can we do the same tests and compare the results in order to find out whether the current secondaries build is nerfed or buffed from the former?

We know a few things, though. AA-wise, secondaries builds have DEFINITELY been nerfed, no question. Accuracy-wise, secondaries builds have DEFINITELY been nerfed, again, no question. Main battery-wise, IF target is in secondaries range, yes, main battery performance gets buffed a bit. Secondaries range got buffed, and that's fine, although it leads to wider dispersion, so keep that in mind. Secondaries now fire from both sides, but keep in mind that the non-targeting side does NOT get a dispersion buff, so....it's REALLY unreliable at best. Now, is that worth all the confirmed nerfs? Honestly, I don't think so, no.

I personally feel that the overall effectiveness of my secondaries build on my battleships has dropped, quite substantially. Whether it's true or not, well that remains to be seen when someone can produce definitive proof that our secondaries builds now are in fact, "buffed", as some are claiming on here.

Edited by SaiIor_Moon
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22 minutes ago, megahugenoob said:

I dont believe this for a second. I have done extensive testing in live randoms and in training room and have found its a definitive nerf.  

 

Wargaming did the typical Sell you the high points but gloss over the low points.  Yes they increased the range of guns (good) but its an irrelevant change because they nerfed accuracy /dispersion of the guns (BAD).  They claimed that guns now shoot off both sides of ships! (good) but they neglect to tell you that you will have a sub 10% hit rate on non focused guns and they stole your AA / SEcondary combo captain skills and made them separate. 

Wargaming also took the commander skill from -60% dispersion and knocked it down to -35% dispersion which is horrible.  Yes they buffed the germans some to help raise INNATE dispersion but  pre 10.0 ships are far more accurate and deadly with secondaries than post 10.0 ships are.

People keep saying that BBs got the buffs in commander rework. I agree IF you want to play a passive sniper and fling HE from 24 KM.

What deadeye has done is completely killed the brawling classes. Every map  has some cover but whats happening now is ships are not playing mid range anymore. BBs are playing max range and lobbing shells from max distance. This causes two problems. Secondaries are significantly less accurate at range (if they can even reach the BBs sniping) and second is the increased accuracy of BBs is murdering secondary ships which NEVER get concealment cause it cant be afforded as they try to push up.

DD's are virtually immune to secondary damage unless they are sub 5km range.  TEst it out if you dont believe me.  Take a random match and focus your guns strictly on DD's and see what your hit rate is at the end of the match.  Its atrocious. Most of them are sub 10% hit rates.  I cant say whether its dazzle or the dispersion nerf that WG gave us, but its horrid.

To build secondary, you have to give up so much.  The secondary  build relies so heavily on the ability to survive in order to be viable, yet you cannot afford most of the defensive skills because of the insane cost of the secondary skills.   Lets look at it.

 

Here's a common breakdown of secondary build skills:

 

4 -  Fire prevention - MUST HAVE

4 - Improved Secondary Battery - Must Have (-35% to dispersion)

3 - Long Range Second Batery - Must Have  (+20% range on secondaries)

2  - Whatever Tier 2 skill you choose (most of the time priority target so you can see when DD switches from guns to torps).

1  - Whatever Tier 1 skill you choose

 

That is 14 points required right out of the gate.

Assuming you have a 21 point captain which virtually nobody but the 1% will have that leaves you with 7 skills.  With those 7 points you have to choose between:

4 - Concealment Expert

4 - Emergency Repair Expert (extra heals)

4 - Close Quarters Combat  (faster secondary guns by 10%)

3 - Adrenaline Rush

3 - Enhanced Torpedo Protection

3 - Basics of Survivability

2 - Vigilance - Torpedo Spotting

 

I would consider the ones in bold to be essential to a secondary ship but There is no way to get them all, even with a 21 point captain.  The pricing is just too expensive for secondary skills. They leave you crippled.   a Sniping ship can get EVERYTHING they need and give up nothing.

 

4 - Deadeye

4 - Fire Preventiion

4 - Conealment

3 - Adrenaline Rush

2 - Piority Target

1 - Whatever tier 1 skill they choose.

 

Thats 18 skill points and still leaves you 3 more to get something like basics of survivability.   Thats insane. 

 

Then you get into nation specific issues about why secondary skills dont work anymore and how they are not viable as snipers.

 

Germans: 

The GK legendary module gives reduced main gun reload, increased secondary firing rate at the expense of main gun distance. 19 KM when using the legendary module is not gonna cut it. Almost every other ship out there can shoot 3-4 km further. Not to mention even if you tried to build a GK as a sniper which is incredibly stupid you have to expose almost complete broadside to bring all 4 turrets to bear. You are a floating piece of kindling and your sigma / dispersion  are hot garbage so even if you managed to get the range up, your not gonna be able to content with ships like Yamato, Thunderer, Conq, Bourgone, etc... in distance gunfights.  

Gunther Lutjens commander has rate of fire proc as special skill.  What is the point of this?  They clearly intended germans to be brawlers, but for reasons stated above, they are absolutely ineffective. at it.  4 Heals, sluggish turn rates on the ship, worst Torpedo belt of any BB line, 2nd worst AA of any BB line, Terrible firing angles, terrible dispersion / sigma.  Long cooldown on hydro   German BBs are nothing more than HP pinata's designed to be farmed wile the real ships do the work.  Nobody is afraid of the GK even if it closes the distance.

 

This captain rework has completely crippled and killed the German BB line.

 

 

Thank you so very much for detailing it out like this. I agree with basically everything you're saying, btw, because I have run the secondaries through the same tests and have run into the same conclusions. Accuracy really has dropped across the board, and it sucks. It really sucks.

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13 minutes ago, SaiIor_Moon said:

IN REGARDS TO OVERALL SECONDARY ACCURACY, NOT THE OVERALL EFFECTIVENESS OF SAID SECONDARIES BUILDS....

<snip>

Do you suppose they tested all this out to ensure the impact upon the game would not kill the game? I think your points are strong indeed. Do you suppose they know their game well enough to grasp what you have put forth? 

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1 hour ago, Crucis said:

Being able to engage any enemy ships within secondary range without having to select them is a nice benefit.  Not a full replacement for what was lost, but nothing to sneeze at.  Also, the accuracy was only cut in half for tier 7-10 ships.  Ships that are tier 6 and below are actually better off.

Now this is true, but honestly, all of the "secondaries" battleships are basically Tier 7 or higher, save for a select few (Oklahoma, Mikasa, Arkansas B....aaaand I can't really think of any other specific ones right now, I'm sure there's others). So is buffing these few battleships REALLY worth the weakening of basically all the other secondaries builds? XD

Look at it this way, before, if you used Manual Secondaries, the Tier 6 and lower ships got what, -15% dispersion? So now they're getting a -20% dispersion buff, whereas the other secondaries builds Tiers 7 and up are getting a +25% dispersion nerf...and I think I can safely say there are a LOT more secondaries-capable ships Tiers 7 and up vs Tier 6 and lower.

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3 hours ago, Sovereigndawg said:

Have you actually played them? If you use the right skills they are as good, if not better brawlers now. The 10% reduction for main battery reload when in second battery range, is a great brawling asset. So you get a little less accuracy from your secondaries (manual only, meaning the one you target since there really is no more manual) but you can make up for the loss of HP by the increased DPM of your mains and secondaries maintain firing at other ships at the same time you are targeting another for added accuracy. Getting that shot off before the other guy can mean life and death. I would rather hit a ship with one main gun volley than 3 secondary ones anyway. There are also more Battleship lines that can benefit from a secondary build now. I've even got a secondary build on my Thunderer now. I think the Germans took a slight hit on distance, from what I hear but haven't played them so I don't really know. I don't think that the secondary build is so ruined as you do.

A little less accuracy you say. Have you actually done the math on that "little less accuracy"?

Hint: It is not 10%

 

At this point, I don't take anyone defeding this rework seriously. After I've seen Zoup going out of his way to defend this garbage, completely misleading people with misformation and blatantly lies, I just can't take these people seriously. They don't even understand how deeps these changes go. They see 10% written in the text and go "ahh, that is not a big deal". They can't understand that the aiming system is an ellipse and the area is greatly affected by these "10%". 

Edited by WarStore
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4 minutes ago, SaiIor_Moon said:

Now this is true, but honestly, all of the "secondaries" battleships are basically Tier 7 or higher, save for a select few (Oklahoma, Mikasa, Arkansas B....aaaand I can't really think of any other specific ones right now, I'm sure there's others). So is buffing these few battleships REALLY worth the weakening of basically all the other secondaries builds? XD

Look at it this way, before, if you used Manual Secondaries, the Tier 6 and lower ships got what, -15% dispersion? So now they're getting a -20% dispersion buff, whereas the other secondaries builds Tiers 7 and up are getting a +25% dispersion nerf...and I think I can safely say there are a LOT more secondaries-capable ships Tiers 7 and up vs Tier 6 and lower.

All tier 6 and below German BBs qualify, with perhaps special attention to the PEF, since it's a tier 6 premium BB, and thus far, the PEF seems like a pretty decent sec build BB.

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