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Teinsmo

Any reason why CV spotting is not delayed as radar spotting?

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As the topic says I question insta spotting ships for other plays by planes. 

I know wargaming likes to ruin every1 non cv players day but when you have a delay n radar spotting for other teammates by 15 sec why don't cv planes do the same as insta spotting is so bad (aka radar nerf)

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The delay is in travel time for planes to get to location. Radar is instant.

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Ships need to travel somewhere to radar and as far as I know, they travel much slower and can be sunk meanwhile and not insta retreat? 
Please explain where planes have the disadvantage here?

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95+% of the time you can see the planes coming. Players with situational awareness can begin maneuvering in advance to mitigate the effect of incoming fire when spotted by aircraft.

The 6s render delay when spotted by radar was implemented largely to give ships, especially DDs, a chance to survive the subsequent focus fire when lit up by a ship they were unaware of the position of (either because of stealth radar or island cover). This type of “surprise” ambush scenario does not apply to the vast majority of DD-CV interactions. Planes can also be shot down and are a limited resource competent players won’t throw away on a whim, while that radar cruiser tucked behind the island needs to be destroyed to stop its spotting as long as the consumable is active.

There’s also the fact that with aerial spotting the way it is right now at high tiers many DDs are only spotted during a small window while the CV is actually commencing their attack run. I would argue that imposing any type of rendering delay like what we have for radar would reduce CV spotting of DDs at high tiers almost exclusively to dropped fighters (if they live long enough to be useful), which was never the intended use of the feature.

Edited by Nevermore135
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Seeing planes coming with 130-175knots vs 30-40kntos on the surface ships gives what options to avoid getting spotted except smoke once every few minutes and how much reaction time to take actions to mitigate of you don't have a smoke for example french or euro dds?

How many planes can be shot down by a single dd that is role equipped for torpedos or gunboating and not niche build on shooting down planes? even then carriers can constantly run 2-4 strikes on them while keeping them spotted for the whole team.

I don't want to focus here on surface ship self-defense vs planes (which we all know is a joke anyway) than on the ability to spot for the whole team instantly while risking minimal resources (like a cruiser behind an island) as planes rebuild over time and can instantly be recalled. - dropping a squad of fighters is on my opinion not even the worst part as you can just move around them if you desire.

The sheer ability of planes to spot everywhere everyone within a few seconds of decision making for the whole vs the ability of "hiding" or "avoiding" is in a very unbalanced form. (Same as instant radar was) The ability to keep a ship with weak AA or just heavy damaged AA almost infinite spotted and therefore exposed to heavy enemy fire is a very imbalance in the gameplay. If planes would have to spot for themself, do damage and then decide to stick around for another 15 sec till a teammate lock the target as well would be an investment in time and lost damage potential for the cv for the sake of keeping some1 spotted and a decision the cv player had to make. 

Certain light armored ships not only dds depend on not being insta spotted and then shot by 4 ships while they try to position themself the first moments of the game somewhere. Overall a delayed plane spotting would simply give surface ships the chance to try to get safe or prepare to ty to evade incoming fire.

Instant spotting is a bad mechanic no matter if it's surface or air and should be reduced if possible. 

Edited by Teinsmo

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1 hour ago, Teinsmo said:

Ships need to travel somewhere to radar and as far as I know, they travel much slower and can be sunk meanwhile and not insta retreat? 
Please explain where planes have the disadvantage here?

Aerial detection favors the ships, specifically the DD's, who have turned-off their AA.

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48 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

95+% of the time you can see the planes coming. Players with situational awareness can begin maneuvering in advance to mitigate the effect of incoming fire when spotted by aircraft.

 

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Edited by Wolfswetpaws

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24 minutes ago, Teinsmo said:

Seeing planes coming with 130-175knots vs 30-40kntos on the surface ships gives what options to avoid getting spotted except smoke once every few minutes and how much reaction time to take actions to mitigate of you don't have a smoke for example french or euro dds?

That’s not what I said:

56 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

Players with situational awareness can begin maneuvering in advance to mitigate the effect of incoming fire when spotted by aircraft.

DDs need to play differently in a match with CVs. Even in a match without CVs, if getting spotted leads to you quickly getting focused to death, that’s on you and you need to learn to be more mindful of your positioning. DDs are not always going to have total initiative in determining their engagements, and good DD players plan an exit route when they move into caps, etc. In many ways CVs and radar serve as a counter to this ability to dictate engagements with other classes.

 

Edited by Nevermore135
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2 hours ago, Teinsmo said:

Seeing planes coming with 130-175knots vs 30-40kntos on the surface ships gives what options to avoid getting spotted except smoke once every few minutes and how much reaction time to take actions to mitigate of you don't have a smoke for example french or euro dds?

How many planes can be shot down by a single dd that is role equipped for torpedos or gunboating and not niche build on shooting down planes? even then carriers can constantly run 2-4 strikes on them while keeping them spotted for the whole team.

I don't want to focus here on surface ship self-defense vs planes (which we all know is a joke anyway) than on the ability to spot for the whole team instantly while risking minimal resources (like a cruiser behind an island) as planes rebuild over time and can instantly be recalled. - dropping a squad of fighters is on my opinion not even the worst part as you can just move around them if you desire.

The sheer ability of planes to spot everywhere everyone within a few seconds of decision making for the whole vs the ability of "hiding" or "avoiding" is in a very unbalanced form. (Same as instant radar was) The ability to keep a ship with weak AA or just heavy damaged AA almost infinite spotted and therefore exposed to heavy enemy fire is a very imbalance in the gameplay. If planes would have to spot for themself, do damage and then decide to stick around for another 15 sec till a teammate lock the target as well would be an investment in time and lost damage potential for the cv for the sake of keeping some1 spotted and a decision the cv player had to make. 

Certain light armored ships not only dds depend on not being insta spotted and then shot by 4 ships while they try to position themself the first moments of the game somewhere. Overall a delayed plane spotting would simply give surface ships the chance to try to get safe or prepare to ty to evade incoming fire.

Instant spotting is a bad mechanic no matter if it's surface or air and should be reduced if possible. 

Against CV's, it's your air detection radius, not some arbitrary radius from the planes. In many cases, you will not  be detected for 6 seconds by the planes, so you would remain entirely invisible to the rest of other team. Planes also obey line of sight rules, so cannot see you on the other side of an island. You also usually have smoke, which renders you invisible to aircraft largely even when firing your guns. So no detection flushing you out of your smoke, just blind torp drops and lucky rocket attacks and bombing runs. Before you go on about some DD's don't have smoke, it's supposed to be a penalty, and a drawback of those DD's to balance out other things that do instead.

Radar works based on an arbitrary distance from the radar equipped ship. If you are in it, you get seen. It sees through smoke, and radar and hydro equipped ships will use it to flush you out of it. The delay gives the DD a chance to get underway and get out before the entire red team also light off into him. Depending on the cruiser, it may not need friends to wreck a stationary DD before it gets moving on it's own.

Lastly, some CV's in the hands of average players have no practical way of dealing with DD's themselves. Any US Navy CV that takes Tiny Tims (or are saddled with them with no choice) and German CV's. They are forced to focus on spotting the DD's in the hope that their teammates kill the DD before the CV, which can't steer to avoid torpedoes while using it's aircraft, ends up an easy kill for the DD. Above average CV players will just smack your DD with torps and bring an end to it, but the game isn't based on above average players.

Now, having some CV's not being able to at least help with dealing with DD's in their own defense wouldn't be a problem if it were not the for the Match Maker restrictions limiting the number of CV's (I play CV's almost exclusively when I hit randoms, and I rarely see 4 CV matches at tier 8 where I usually play) Giving one team a full service CV and the other team a gimped one isn't exactly fair, so all CV's need to be about as capable as each other, more than any other ship type.  

Edited by SgtBeltfed
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9 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Aerial detection favors the ships, specifically the DD's, who have turned-off their AA.

While DD's need to be aware of planes in the area they really need to fear other DD's and cruisers. From my own CV play other than the initial scouting pass where DD's that race ahead of the pack get spotted by the planes it is ships that lite up the DD's that I attack and not the other way around because planes cannot keep a DD spotted for more than a few seconds at a time and have to be in AA range to do that.

Edited by BrushWolf
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Hmm. A dropped fighter from a CV placed as such that the fighters are close enough to spot a cruiser and not get shot down is attack doctrine of CVs.

It does not work as well for DDs because DDs are moving and can slip out of detection faster. So the only way to permaspot effectively a DD is a torpedo bomber group as they can heal, drop a fighter, attack the DD and basically hound it long enough for a team to get it.

However, that assumes your team will effectively coordinate the focus fire.

A DD player's biggest mistake is going to the obvious flight path of a bomber. If you see it in the air and you are alone, then avoid initially. Because he is looking for you. No support, you are dead. Smoke in cap, sit there, dead if no one supports you.

Unless you have great conceal and reflexes like a cranked up cat that was on electroshock too much, you are going to get hit repeatedly by an average CV player.

The advanced CV player will try torps to alpha damage you to low health and deplete your smokes. Then finish you off with rockets.

If they have HE bombs, they can be just as dangerous. One good strike is all they need.

AP bombs might not hurt you at full health but if you are a few hp from dead and they are good then start dodging.

Concealment and knowing to stay as dark as possible is key to being a great DD player.

You have to be able to slip past aircraft with stealth and know that popping smoke might mean leaving it out like a decoy.

I play DDs and have fought CVs.

It's not hard, but it's a challenge. You have to have your wits about you.

 

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3 hours ago, Nevermore135 said:

That’s not what I said:

DDs need to play differently in a match with CVs. Even in a match without CVs, if getting spotted leads to you quickly getting focused to death, that’s on you and you need to learn to be more mindful of your positioning. DDs are not always going to have total initiative in determining their engagements, and good DD players plan an exit route when they move into caps, etc. In many ways CVs and radar serve as a counter to this ability to dictate engagements with other classes.

This.

Even if I understand the hate directed at carriers; even back during RTS, I always felt that, in most cases, a carrier is only as good as the targets let them be.

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20 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

This.

Even if I understand the hate directed at carriers; even back during RTS, I always felt that, in most cases, a carrier is only as good as the targets let them be.

Yeah, don't blame a CV for attacking a lone Yamato sailing out alone. That is an advertisement: "I dare you to hit me CV, I have range mod, no AA build, I have no rudder shift mod, just damage control upgrade. Bring it! I have many AA guns! Woo hoo!" 

Then a CV attacks it. Yamato sinks because nearest cruiser with great AA is 4 squares away with rest of fleet and their CV is unable to pull fighters over there in time. 

Yamato player cries. But was not a team player at the time. The team players at the time sailed together and did in fact make it a rough time for CVs in RTS as they sailed in a rough formation which allowed their CV to be able to defend them since none of them wandered off like lost..

sheep. (Okay, that was a silly pun)

Playing smart is always going to help you. And that minimap will save your life if you see those plane icons start to approach you. At least you have some fair warning and you can do something like pop smoke in a DD, duck into an island chain, or hug a BB or cruiser with good AA. 

The bottom line is you always head in with some support.

If you don't want support, then you assume the risk.

 

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