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TheArc

Hybrids really are their own class, please do NOT keep them as a "cruiser"

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WG, if you don't even up the balance on teams that get these hybrids then the additional CV spotting advantage is turning the game into utter [edited]. 

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6 minutes ago, TheArc said:

WG, if you don't even up the balance on teams that get these hybrids then the additional CV spotting advantage is turning the game into utter [edited]. 

Forunately, it seems hybrids have been put on the back burner, at least for now.

On a more positive note, this seems to be the genesis of the *coming soon*  true BB Hyuga instead of her confused sister Ise.

Be fun to see a "Kantai Kessen" div of Nagato, Mutsu, and Hyuga.

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As proven in WOT and now in WOWS, Wargaming doesn't really know how to deal with units that don't entirely fit within a preconceived notion of a type.

So we get artificial differences and tweaked parameters on tanks in WOT to make them fit into "light", "medium", "heavy", "TD", and "artillery" boxes.

And we get the WOWS skill rebork that ignores the impact on small-gun cruisers, supercruisers, some heavy cruisers, etc. 

I have zero faith in their ability to handle the "hybrid" ships. 

 

Edited by KilljoyCutter
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I don't even like the supercruisers being regarded as "cruisers".  

 

3 v 3 ranked really "exposed" that problem.  If one team have a super cruiser and the other team had a standard CA or CL the team with the standard cruiser was likely to lose.  Now obviously, I don't think it has "as much" of an impact as in a 12 v 12 where there might be 1 or 2 odd matches.  In that particular scenario the inequality was huge.

Edited by Taco_De_Moist

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44 minutes ago, TheArc said:

WG, if you don't even up the balance on teams that get these hybrids then the additional CV spotting advantage is turning the game into utter [edited]. 

I’m largely indifferent on this but the flip side of having very small hybrid ships in queue means extremely long wait times potentially. I look forward to those ships as they actually existed but if I’m waiting 5 minutes to get in then no thanks. 

Edited by ditka_Fatdog

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If they do not do that for radar, they will not do that for hybrid.

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59 minutes ago, TheArc said:

WG, if you don't even up the balance on teams that get these hybrids then the additional CV spotting advantage is turning the game into utter [edited]. 

Pretty sure one of them is a CA and one of them is a BB. Having said that thanks to the new skill trees WG could introduce a hybrid skill tree. They could also do a Battlecruiser skill tree..... do it WG!

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18 minutes ago, TheArc said:

WG, if you don't even up the balance on teams that get these hybrids then the additional CV spotting advantage is turning the game into utter [edited]. 

I don't see them being a new/different type but they very well can implement a special mirror rule for them. Even if they are slotted as cruisers or BBs, they must drop paired with another "hybrid" ship.

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1 hour ago, Balon_Greyjoy said:

Forunately, it seems hybrids have been put on the back burner, at least for now.

Tell that to the Tone I saw that inspired this post. Oh yah, they stomped us of course. Just like all 4 matches I've ever seen with Hybrids, their team won handily. 

55 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

As proven in WOT and now in WOWS, Wargaming doesn't really know how to deal with units that don't entirely fit within a preconceived notion of a type.

Yup. :-/

53 minutes ago, Taco_De_Moist said:

I don't even like the supercruisers being regarded as "cruisers".  

Agreed 100% I would like super cruisers being their own class for MM and also for captain skills. 

28 minutes ago, ditka_Fatdog said:

I’m largely indifferent on this but the flip side of having very small hybrid ships in queue means extremely long wait times potentially. 

It could be an issue, and I understand especially during testing it needs to be watched. But they don't have any problem doing it with CVs as a balance. One easy way to help with it might be to limit all hybrids to the odd tiers. CVs to even, hybrids to odd. Just a thought.

21 minutes ago, Karstodes said:

If they do not do that for radar, they will not do that for hybrid.

Sorry I'm going to disagree with that strongly. Obviously one could take my point and push it off to extremes, such as "No SAP ships on one side!" on and one to infinity. Personally I don't think radar is particularly potent anymore, especially since they reduced the ranges and durations for so many ships. It can definitely be a buzz kill to get caught with your pants down by some US radar cruiser that's setup to make it last... but maybe you shouldn't be running around in the middle of town with your pants down! ;)

And FWIW, I've been playing a LOT more DD lately than radar cruisers. Probably a 20:1 ratio over the last 1000 battles so I know the struggle.

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But they will need to be in the cruiser skill tree so no plane buffs like CVs get...seems a good balance that they will be wasting all of their cruiser skills while flying around in planes...at least if it's setup like CVs where you ha e no control of the ship while the planes are up.

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23 minutes ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

But they will need to be in the cruiser skill tree so no plane buffs like CVs get...seems a good balance that they will be wasting all of their cruiser skills while flying around in planes...at least if it's setup like CVs where you ha e no control of the ship while the planes are up.

I see hybrids being able to pick skills from 2 different trees. That would solve some issues with Supercruisers/Battlecruisers and save the need for implementing a brand new skill tree. Just flag X ships as BB/CA or CV/CA hybrid and give them access to both skill trees as dual class.

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2 hours ago, TheArc said:

WG, if you don't even up the balance on teams that get these hybrids then the additional CV spotting advantage is turning the game into utter [edited]. 

I just realized that the Skill Rebork screws over the Hybrids also!  Ise, Tone are f--ked over unless WG overcompensates the other part of the ship to be so good that it doesn't require skills to buff it.

 

For example, Tone will be a Cruiser in terms of Skill selection and her planes will be made so good that skills aren't required.  That's what I see will happen going forward.

 

So much for this Rebork providing "Choice."

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1 hour ago, Balon_Greyjoy said:

Be fun to see a "Kantai Kessen" div of Nagato, Mutsu, and Hyuga.

Fleet Doctrine? :Smile_amazed:

In any case, anything that doesn't have a class in game yet defaults to "cruiser."

  • Polish minelayer Gryf is a Tier 1 cruiser
  • Soviet cutter Orlan is a Tier 1 cruiser
  • Japanese convoy escort(in Chinese service)Cheng An is a Tier 1 cruiser
  • American attack transport Liberty is a Tier 5 cruiser
  • the one exception is the German torpedoboot S-100, listed as a destroyer

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59 minutes ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

But they will need to be in the cruiser skill tree so no plane buffs like CVs get...seems a good balance that they will be wasting all of their cruiser skills while flying around in planes...at least if it's setup like CVs where you ha e no control of the ship while the planes are up.

IMO the biggest issue is the start of the match and acting a second CV (or third,) scouting and spotting.  Captain skills won't matter for that. 

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41 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

I see hybrids being able to pick skills from 2 different trees. That would solve some issues with Supercruisers/Battlecruisers and save the need for implementing a brand new skill tree. Just flag X ships as BB/CA or CV/CA hybrid and give them access to both skill trees as dual class.

(Damn...though I posted this awhile ago)

No...that would make them OP...

I think the way it is now is more balanced...they shouldn't have available plane buffs...they already have main battery guns...they don't need 2 powerful forms of attack at any time.

Having any plane attack option on a ship w/main batteries is strong enough...they don't need to be able to have super survivable/strong attacking planes that they can just hit the F key then come out from behind the island & sink a bunch of cits (or burn massive fires w/HE) right afterwards with.

Planes aren't supposed to be the main weapons platform on a hybrid...just an alternate deterrent/spotter occasionally.

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19 minutes ago, black_hull4 said:

In any case, anything that doesn't have a class in game yet defaults to "cruiser."

Well, IR there's the term "auxiliary cruiser" with fits for whatever thing with guns you can't fit anywhere else

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2 minutes ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

(Damn...though I posted this awhile ago)

No...that would make them OP...

I think the way it is now is more balanced...they shouldn't have available plane buffs...they already have main battery guns...they don't need 2 powerful forms of attack at any time.

Having any plane attack option on a ship w/main batteries is strong enough...they don't need to be able to have super survivable/strong attacking planes that they can just hit the F key then come out from behind the island & sink a bunch of cits (or burn massive fires w/HE) right afterwards with.

Planes aren't supposed to be the main weapons platform on a hybrid...just an alternate deterrent/spotter occasionally.

Yes I understand your point, but I think the real impact towards effective performance would be minimal and you will end up spreading your points with the result of being relatively weak in both sides. Think about it, which skill from the CV tree would you pick in exchange of your core BB skils?, the answer isn't easy yet I think it has some entertainment value. Probably the build you choose for your hybrid will be less effective if you go dual class than remaining single class, but it would be fun to have the choice of skills.

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9 minutes ago, TheArc said:

IMO the biggest issue is the start of the match and acting a second CV (or third, or only in a no CV match) scouting and spotting.  Captain skills won't matter for that. 

True...but attack & survival abilities will be limited unless they give them OP base stats.

They will be able to spot the BBs & heavy cruisers easy enough but to get in range to spot the other cruisers will leave them vulnerable to lots of aa damage & trying to get close enough to spot DDs in a non buffed plane will result in quick AA annihilation unless the DD has gone full boost tilt yolo at the start...

But again...that depends on the base survival stats they give them.

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8 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Yes I understand your point, but I think the real impact towards effective performance would be minimal and you will end up spreading your points with the result of being relatively weak in both sides. Think about it, which skill from the CV tree would you pick in exchange of your core BB skils?, the answer isn't easy yet I think it has some entertainment value. Probably the build you choose for your hybrid will be less effective if you go dual class than remaining single class, but it would be fun to have the choice of skills.

True...it might actually be more detrimental to give them the option to do both leaving them w/a ship w/no discernable advantages...

But certain skills that are available from the CV tree will be viable for both ship & planes...like the Adrenalin Rush that only buffs cruisers in the cruiser tree can be skipped for the CV version that (I believe) buffs both ship & planes.

Edited by IfYouSeeKhaos

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3 minutes ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

Ttrying to get close enough to spot DDs in a non buffed plane will result in quick AA annihilation unless the DD has gone full boost tilt yolo at the start...

Yah, umm... you do realize that half of the DDs out there can't even hurt a paper airplane, right? 

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24 minutes ago, TheArc said:

Yah, umm... you do realize that half of the DDs out there can't even hurt a paper airplane, right? 

I was referring to the planes needing to get w/in the DDs teammates AA to attack them.unlrssthe DD went boost yolo....& wAA off it's hard to spot a DD in a plane & still get an attack off w/out needing to come back around so if the DD didn't yolo the team has plenty of opportunity to shoot unbuffed planes down quickly.

@TheArc... edit (just tagging you in in case you already read the previous)...

BTW...the DDs w/only paper airplane AA have detections that allow them to never be spotted by CVs as long as they keep their AA off...

& in a CV match...a hybrid that launched his plane from spawn doesn't get the CVs 1 minute activation DCP & when spotted by the actual CV is dead meat (between plane attacks & BB AP from teammates).

Edited by IfYouSeeKhaos

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10 minutes ago, paradat said:

Pretty sure one of them is a CA and one of them is a BB. Having said that thanks to the new skill trees WG could introduce a hybrid skill tree. They could also do a Battlecruiser skill tree..... do it WG!

I believe the battlecruiser line will eventually happen, maybe not soon. 

The Ise may need an accuracy buff to make up for the fewer guns. Tone will depend on the firing angles of it's turrets. 

A bad day, one Yamato, two Tone and seven Kitakami?

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1 hour ago, TheArc said:

IMO the biggest issue is the start of the match and acting a second CV (or third,) scouting and spotting.  Captain skills won't matter for that. 

The Tone was to be a search/spotter for the fleet freeing up carrier aircraft for strike duty. It would seem that would be it's main use at the start. How and when the bombers/torpedo bombers are used remains to be seen.

But it would be one carrier DDs and CLs would have to attack carefully. 

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I just realized that the Skill Rebork screws over the Hybrids also!  Ise, Tone are f--ked over unless WG overcompensates the other part of the ship to be so good that it doesn't require skills to buff it.

 

For example, Tone will be a Cruiser in terms of Skill selection and her planes will be made so good that skills aren't required.  That's what I see will happen going forward.

 

So much for this Rebork providing "Choice."

Correct. They made it clear in one of the twitch streams that Ise is a BB and has BB skills. Tone is a cruiser and has cruiser skills. They do not get CV skills and planes can't be buffed.  The planes are just an extra tool that they can use now and then. They are more like floatplanes but can be controlled. 

 

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