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Soshi_Sone

Soshi's cut on Deadeye

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I don't use Deadeye.  I'm sure it's a good skill for some.  But there are four critical things it requires to make it work.

1.  It requires a ship designed to engage at ranges conducive to the skill.

2.  It requires the ability to aim well.

3.  It requires the ability to anticipate the enemy.

4.  Choice of target.

Number 1 is obvious, so I'll take a look at 2, 3, 4.  Number 2; you gotta aim well.  At some point of user aiming error, dispersion actually transitions from a curse to a blessing.  A shell from a poorly aimed shot can connect if dispersion is enough to overcome the aim error.  Deadeye, by reducing dispersion, actually RAISES the premium on aiming.  If your aiming error is outside the Deadeye reduction, the skill will make you WORSE at hitting targets.  

Number 3 is related to number 2.  Even if you can aim well, you must have also mastered the skill of target anticipation.  Dispersion helps someone hit a maneuvering target by sending some shells on a vector the enemy just happens to move into even when that maneuver was not anticipated.  Deadeye places a higher premium in ensuring the shell drop ellipse coincides with a maneuvering target.  Ergo, anticipation is key.

Number 4.  Deadeye can change the target threshold decision.  A maneuvering target that might otherwise be a good target for a dispersion shot, might be discarded for a larger or less maneuvering target where the convergence of multiple shells have a higher payoff.

In aggregate, the ability to make Deadeye a useful skill requires a player that has already mastered critical aspects of long range engagements.  Someone who has the necessary ship, knows how to aim, can anticipate the enemy at range, and knows how to choose their targets.

For me, I really don't play much with  (1), so I've not really developed a good (2).  I've gotten real good at (3) and (4) and know how to smack ships at long range under normal dispersion.  But Deadeye requires all four in your court.  Those that have the four will make good use of it.  Those without those four attributes won't fair as well...and in aggregate...may actually fair WORSE.  

So far, other than seeing a lot more players (mainly BBs and scared CAs) working the mid to far game, I've not experienced any noticeable impact from Deadeye in the hands of a competent player.  Maybe I've been on the receiving end.  But I just haven't noticed.

In closing....

Deadeye doesn't make a sniper good.  Rather, a good sniper makes Deadeye good. 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Soshi_Sone said:

Number 1 is obvious

To an extent it is, but what do you explicitly consider those ranges to be and what ships do you drive that you feel it isn't worthwhile?

I agree on principle with everything you've written; I just want a discussion of the particulars so I can put it in the context of my own fleet.

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Where your post is good, by the time most people reach T-9/10 they can aim reasonably well, tack on a few of Aslains mods and the right sight and it becomes even easier.

I recently parked my Slave full broadside behind the West Island on "North" where the land dips down. I PUNISHED with impunity the poor reds without being spotted all game. NO WAY I could do that without Dead-eye.

That is not the only map ive done it on, I am finding the right island on a map can shield you from being detected from all but a few areas turning BB's into long range island humping cruisers.

I run it on my BB's because its highly useful.....At the same time I think its one of the worse things that could be done to the game. The game is already very passive play for BB's this has made it even worse.

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I see literally no difference in your points and post concerning play now vs. pre changes.

Good players are good, bad are bad, your points all have to do with what good players do every day, not deadeye.

 

What Deadeye does is encourage distant play, Less risk for BB's and greater accuracy. It's just bad for the game. Yes it will make betters players hit more shells. Which frankly is the last thing this game needs. Watch what this skill does for the  really good BB players.

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As to point 1, which ships are the prime candidates? A ship with poor dispersion or on one with good? I use the Champagne which has very good dispersion, that gets worse the closer the target. Deadeye tightens it up even more, does that make it useful or a better choice for BBs known for poor dispersion like the Germans?

I play less with BBs but I do like accuracy. 

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Lots of people think they can do #2 - some of us know we can't  mostly because of #3 not being as good as it should -   but we think we are more likely to able to do  better with this skill. 

 

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Soshi_Sone said:

quote

Well said.  My own ranged sniping skills are lacking, and I prefer the close game anyway, so Deadeye is a no go for me.

Also I haven't noticed a preponderance of God strikes on me from range, so it doesn't feel as if the skill is overturning the existing meta too terribly.

Seems like a lot of Chicken Littles running about screaming that the sky is falling - so mostly, business as usual.

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This skill should be eliminated immediately. Just played my first BB game with it. Why would I get close while being rewarded with more accurate shots for not doing so? Do BB's need anymore encouragement to camp and snipe? Why would I get closer to enemy BB's when I know they have the skill and can hit me harder?

Forget the skill, the real issue is what it does to the game and regular player.....

I just invested 4 points in a skill that hits harder/better if I am further away. As others have mentioned, everyone thinks they are better than they are, that includes aiming. Good players will be good, bad will be bad..... But adding a skill like this will provide more stagnant games for the masses.

As proof, look at the old secondary spec BB's, you invested so much into them that you rush in close so that you can use them. Deadeye is opposite, Invest in range to use the skill.

Edited by Pura__Vida

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Thing is Thunderers that are by now swarming higher tiers practically nullify points 1 through 4, lieu of the HE.

Edited by warheart1992

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I discovered via clan battles and having to be a forced substitute on BB that I am a very good shot in Yamato, even at long range. That said, I absolutely find Dead Eye to be a net positive skill for both Yamato and Thunderer. I can also make a strong case for running it on American battleships and French battleships, but I think a lot of players make a critical mistake with the Republique and Montana lines in playing like they always need to keep Dead Eye active. They don't play the matchups right. Montana and Republique both have speed, and they can dictate the range of engagement well, which is important, because while they may want to use their Dead Eye against Kremlin, Kurfurst, and Colombo, they really need to use their speed to rush Yamato, Vermont, and Thunderer to shut their Dead Eye off, as they can use the skill far more effectively and it's better for Montana and Republique if neither side can use it. That is the biggest mistake I see in BB play right now. Obviously destroyers and cruisers have an impact on this as well, but the basic rules are the same.

Edited by Shannon_Lindsey
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What about the HE spam in tier 10 from dd and cruisers that makes a bb have to play back so they don't die the first 10 minutes and get burned down. I love to brawl but I am learning there is a time to push and brawl and a time to be back and wait. Why should a bb be food for the HE spammers. 

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1 hour ago, Mustangrde1 said:

Where your post is good, by the time most people reach T-9/10 they can aim reasonably well...
 

LOL!!! .... Thanks for the laugh!!!! 

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I'm getting so tired of the "dead eye isn't a good skill" or "is only useful in some hands or on certain ship" posts.

1.  That isn't going to stop people from taking the skill.  It just isn't.  Potato Master General gives no care about your or anyone else's hot take on the matter.  From their perspective they get an accuracy buff for sitting in the back.  Period, end of story.  These posts may as well be the voice of adults in a peanuts cartoon to them.

2. The effect skill itself is not the problem.  The already pervasive passive meta at high tiers it attempts to reward is the damn problem.

Edited by Taco_De_Moist
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7 minutes ago, Taco_De_Moist said:

The already pervasive passive meta at high tiers it attempts to reward

Have you considered that it might have been introduced for some other reason? Like people complaining their heads off for years that their German BBs can't shoot worth a damn at range?

1 hour ago, Pura__Vida said:

Why would I get closer to enemy BB's when I know they have the skill and can hit me harder?

Because your back-line position is garbage and you need to move forward to support your team.

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the camping ,hidden, rock hugging ,sniping, DDs & CLs..dont like the out in the open fat slow BBs shooting at them ? seems to me that if a BB is camping out in the open waters should be an easy shot for those sniping DDs & CLs....just an observation on my part..

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9 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

 

Because your back-line position is garbage and you need to move forward to support your team.

No one is arguing that. But the skill encourages this behavior. Now stop posting on these boards and get back to work at WG, unless they pay you to post sunshine.

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You would be absolutely stupid to not take deadeye.

1. Concealment ranges for battleships (built for conceal as it should be) are around 12-15km. The optimal engagement range of a battleship in 95% of cases is 15+ km. This is why the deadeye skill is so overpowered - if you are playing battleships correctly, then the skill will almost always be active (which negates the drawbacks)

2. This is a stupid argument. For every salvo in which you are blessed by the RNG gods and not having deadeye causes a stray shell to hit the target, there are 10 more salvos in which having deadeye causes an additional shell to hit the target. This is due to the distribution of shells around a dispersion ellipse being weighted to the center instead of being uniformly distributed.

3. Not using deadeye in this case would be a crutch and would make you dependent on having a stray shell (which again happens really rarely). You would be much better served taking deadeye and using it to learn how to aim better.

4. This is not true. Deadeye does not discriminate between a maneuvering or smaller target versus a larger target. It will provide exactly the same positive impact on all targets. The real issue here is the mindset of the player. If you think that shooting at an angled cruiser that you overmatch and that has much less overall health is less usefull than shooting at a full health battleship, then that's a you problem.

No matter whether you are a good player or a bad player, deadeye is absolutely a must have and huge buff to all battleships.

Edited by rhulkb27
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2 hours ago, Pura__Vida said:

What Deadeye does is encourage distant play, Less risk for BB's and greater accuracy

This has always been the complaint against BBs especially in the higher tiers where HE spamming Cruisers and DDs abound . There is at the moment the Smolensk effect going on here where everyone is panicking a bit .

I think some time to see how it shakes out is in order . Yes I agree the skill does at the moment encourage people to play BBs even further back but perhaps as we figure it out it wont be the problem it is now . Maybe as people see they are losing games because nobody caps and there snippers are not good shots they wont be so scared they will move up and neutralize the dead eye skill .

I'm just saying you need to give it time before you start nerfing it or getting rid of it . While it looks like a bad choice for the game it needs some time to see how it's really affecting game play after people get over there fear of it and start playing there normal games . You know the good players will figure out the counter to it like they always do but either way it's only been a week .

Just to set the record straight I'm not a big fan of it . I have over 1000 games played in the Massachusetts 1000 in the Scharnhorst and I love the brawling game with secondaries blazing . But the skill as is looks to good not to take on some of your BBs .

 

 

Edited by clammboy

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50 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Because your back-line position is garbage and you need to move forward to support your team.

i can support my team staying 20 km back from the enemy....no  need  to do the spotting in a BB ...no need to do the capping in a BB ...

DDs are faster , stealthier , Cls are always hiding behind a rock and are fast firing support for those DDs..if you guys cant stop the enemy ship equivalent to yours ..or even just keep them away from you hows that a BBs fault.???..

garbage ? no its not ...what it is in my opinion is a "insecurity problem" DDS & CLS are unsure of themselves ..they blame BBs  for getting deleted ....i didnt put you in that spot...and me being closer wouldnt of helped ...you get deleted because you dont pay attention to what you are doing most of the time .....

map awareness is a key element to the game ..if you get deleted in the first 10 mins of a 20 min game you did something wrong ..you put yourself in the crosshairs of an enemy ship not a BBs fault....or sometimes you just get out played ..

BEWARE OF THE SNIPERS ....we see you making mistakes and  putting yourself in our crosshairs

Edited by arch4random
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it doesn't matter how good anyone is with the deadeye skill.. the problem is that any bb that has it on, (and that's most of them) sit in the back and contribute virtually nothing to team play. Same stuff is going on with the DD's and cruisers. Since 10.0 the gameplay itself it complete garbage, no one wants to do what thier ship class is intended for. 

 

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29 minutes ago, syp_twiz said:

it doesn't matter how good anyone is with the deadeye skill.. the problem is that any bb that has it on, (and that's most of them) sit in the back and contribute virtually nothing to team play. Same stuff is going on with the DD's and cruisers. Since 10.0 the gameplay itself it complete garbage, no one wants to do what thier ship class is intended for. 

 

DD's sitting back is not what I am seeing....quite the opposite, especially with all sorts of people taking up Swift in Silence  and thus having way more speed.

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1 hour ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Have you considered that it might have been introduced for some other reason? Like people complaining their heads off for years that their German BBs can't shoot worth a damn at range?

Because your back-line position is garbage and you need to move forward to support your team.

1. Then Buff German BB's.  Why make a global skill to address an issue with a specific nations ships? 

2. No complaints there.  Again, they added a global skill for BB's that entices this playstyle.  That is my major complaint with the skill.  This was already a problem, now they gave people even more reason to do it.

Edited by Taco_De_Moist

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1 hour ago, clammboy said:

This has always been the complaint against BBs especially in the higher tiers where HE spamming Cruisers and DDs abound . There is at the moment the Smolensk effect going on here where everyone is panicking a bit .

I think some time to see how it shakes out is in order . Yes I agree the skill does at the moment encourage people to play BBs even further back but perhaps as we figure it out it wont be the problem it is now . Maybe as people see they are losing games because nobody caps and there snippers are not good shots they wont be so scared they will move up and neutralize the dead eye skill .

I'm just saying you need to give it time before you start nerfing it or getting rid of it . While it looks like a bad choice for the game it needs some time to see how it's really affecting game play after people get over there fear of it and start playing there normal games . You know the good players will figure out the counter to it like they always do but either way it's only been a week .

Just to set the record straight I'm not a big fan of it . I have over 1000 games played in the Massachusetts 1000 in the Scharnhorst and I love the brawling game with secondaries blazing . But the skill as is looks to good not to take on some of your BBs .

 

 

The game I mentioned previously, my only BB game was in a Musashi i was shooting at targets over 31km away. It became a game within the game to see if I could hit from max range. It was actually fun trying, but terrible for my team. If I can be easily suckered into playing like that, so can the masses.

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9 minutes ago, Taco_De_Moist said:

Then Buff German BB's.  Why make a global skill to address an issue with a specific nations ships? 

Because it's not JUST that nation's ships, but I didn't want to sit here trying to give every goddamn example of a ship that has consistency issues.

Soshi's position on this skill is the only one I have found anywhere near consistent. Everything else smacks of an excuse to rage against the rework for the sake of raging against the rework, and quite frankly that can all burn in hell. Some of it is probably honest misperception, but not all of it.

If I need to move up in a cruiser to support my small ships I'll do it, and moving forward I expect the battleships to push up with me or get reported for bad play. Most of my problems happen when they don't; when I actually get some heavy fire support from teams that know how to focus-fire instead of just staying in the back playing with themselves and farming damage or hunting CV out of misplaced rage, we win flanks and battles.

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