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JCC45

Super Heavy AP vs Dead Eye: Food for Tought.

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So just to see I took a Thunderer into the training room twice to see if there was a noticeable difference between two different builds.  I placed a non moving, non firing GK in and moved my Thunderer until I was perfectly broadside just out of standard detection range.  Ideal conditions.

The first build had Dead Eye but standard AP rounds.  To sink the GK took 7 Salvos with 42 of 56 shells hitting for 105,000 damage.  All shots fired at the upper belt to avoid citadels.

The second build took Super Heavy AP and no Dead Eye.  To sink the GK took 6 Salvos with 37 of 48 shells hitting for 105,000 damage.  All shots fired at the upper belt to avoid citadels.

The non Dead Eye build had a slightly higher hit percentage (77% vs 75%) and delivered more average damage per shell (2,837 per shell vs. 2,500).

 

Something to think about.

 

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Interesting, but I think you'd need to repeat this test about 100 times before the results can be interpreted meaningfully, RNG being what it is.

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Also suggest increasing the range so dispersion becomes a more significant factor

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With the extreme amount of HE spam there is that +30% fire duration will be painful. That downside feels too large for the benefit where Deadeye feels like the benefit is too large for the downside.

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The question should be whether one salvo less to sink someone is worth 30% extra fire duration.

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100 tests!  LOL   It takes 10 minutes just to get into position.  Once was plenty.

And I wasn't making any value judgements... I was just looking for anything that stood out.  The better dispersion without Dead Eye and the increased damage of the Super Heavy AP I found interesting.

Edited by JCC45
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Dead Eye can be broken too easily with a DD. Super heavy AP is the way to go. Just use one other skill and a module upgrade to offset the penalty. 

Dead Eye, while useful with HE spam from both Conqueror and Thunderer, it is entirely dependent on going dark too. This allows them to change positions, move to a safer position and fire again while everyone on opposing team is looking for them. It is not just about the breaking of Dead Eye. If you permanently spot both BB types, then they are going to be constantly harassed. Because neither has good armor and eventually focus firing them will be fatal in about 3 minutes.

Use of a DD to spot and just sit there spotting initially with the deadly intent of killing them first is what it is all about.

Now if no DD, then use a CV fighter dropped as a spot just outside of range of their AA fire.

No CV or DD? That is rare, but a cruiser or a BB that is tanky can charge in and be the pawn for the team. If they hold out long enough, then the BBs are destroyed. 

I am not encouraging back BB mitigation on an evil scale here. This is just counter tactics.

It just looks Evil. 

 

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19 minutes ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

Dead Eye, while useful with HE spam from both Conqueror and Thunderer, it is entirely dependent on going dark too.

I'm gonna guess you just watched Zoup's video which is uh... rather uninformed to say the least?

For Deadeye to deactivate there needs to be a spotted enemy ship within the base concealment range of the BB running it. Meaning that if a BB that has Deadeye is spotted by an unspotted enemy DD within their base concealment for example, Deadeye is still active. The DD needs to expose itself for Deadeye to deactivate. Air spotting has no effect on Deadeye whatsoever.

Edited by El2aZeR
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3 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

I'm gonna guess you just watched Zoup's video which is uh... rather uninformed to say the least?

For Deadeye to deactivate there needs to be a spotted enemy ship within the base concealment range of the BB running it. Meaning that if a BB that has Deadeye is spotted by an unspotted enemy DD within their base concealment for example, Deadeye is still active. The DD needs to expose itself for Deadeye to deactivate. Air spotting has no effect on Deadeye whatsoever.

I take potshots at the BBs and shoot torps at them.

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I am in the camp that Deadeye seem to have some value...but I believe folks are crying too much over it.  Deadeye doesn't make you a better shot or a better player, it may help you land a few more shells overall.  What damage does that shell do if any?  You still have to HIT the target (aiming)   I have played a decent amount of CAs and DDs since the bork, but can't say I have really noticed a difference in dying.  One ship that seems to be shooting better with DE is the Roma.... and that could make it worth it right there.  The H AP is a fail and anyone that mounts it...well go for it and hope to see you in my random match...on the other team :)

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1 minute ago, Morpheous said:

I am in the camp that Deadeye seem to have some value...but I believe folks are crying too much over it.  Deadeye doesn't make you a better shot or a better player, it may help you land a few more shells overall.  What damage does that shell do if any?  You still have to HIT the target (aiming)   I have played a decent amount of CAs and DDs since the bork, but can't say I have really noticed a difference in dying.  One ship that seems to be shooting better with DE is the Roma.... and that could make it worth it right there.  The H AP is a fail and anyone that mounts it...well go for it and hope to see you in my random match...on the other team :)

Well I used it in Randoms and Ranked. It does nice alpha. But I do get in there. I leave the lawn chair at home. 

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1 minute ago, Morpheous said:

I am in the camp that Deadeye seem to have some value...but I believe folks are crying too much over it.  Deadeye doesn't make you a better shot or a better player, it may help you land a few more shells overall.  What damage does that shell do if any?  You still have to HIT the target (aiming)   I have played a decent amount of CAs and DDs since the bork, but can't say I have really noticed a difference in dying.  One ship that seems to be shooting better with DE is the Roma.... and that could make it worth it right there.  The H AP is a fail and anyone that mounts it...well go for it and hope to see you in my random match...on the other team :)

Deadeye makes good aim fantastic.  That's the problem. 

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1 minute ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

I take potshots at the BBs and shoot torps at them.

In my experience a DD that exposes itself within, say, 10km of a Thunderer doesn't get to live very long and if you're just firing torps from stealth then you're not breaking Deadeye.

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2 minutes ago, Rothgar_57 said:

Deadeye makes good aim fantastic.  That's the problem. 

No it does not...it helps with the dispersion after firing...it does nothing to fix a player's aiming...and some players really can't aim, even at higher tiers.

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Just now, El2aZeR said:

In my experience a DD that exposes itself within, say, 10km of a Thunderer doesn't get to live very long and if you're just firing torps from stealth then you're not breaking Deadeye.

If you shoot from behind a rock and make him see you, but smoke up or just slide behind the rock, it is quite effective.

Most of those guys are always pointing in the wrong direction if I slip behind them, so I pop a shot and if they swing the guns around, I go dark. If they don't, pop a shot again. I pester them, torp them.

Bottom  line. If I am in the backyard, they are worried about me, not the rest of my team. But this allows my team to see them constantly, which is a weakness for the ship, and breaking Dead Eye is just a bonus. They could ignore me, but then their skill won't work and I torp their backsides. 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Morpheous said:

No it does not...it helps with the dispersion after firing...it does nothing to fix a player's aiming...and some players really can't aim, even at higher tiers.

i said it makes good aim fantastic.  Meaning if you you aim correctly more shells will hit the target.  Thats what it does.  IT reduces RNG.

Edited by Rothgar_57
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45 minutes ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

Just use one other skill and a module upgrade to offset the penalty. 

That's not exactly how that works...

Burning for that long is still way way too long.  Can't use your AP if you're dead

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1 hour ago, warheart1992 said:

The question should be whether one salvo less to sink someone is worth 30% extra fire duration.

considering dead eye builds are so far away they will be the last one to get attacked is not that big of a problem, brawler build in the other hand seem to have everything against them.

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2 hours ago, JCC45 said:

100 tests!  LOL   It takes 10 minutes just to get into position.  Once was plenty.

And I wasn't making any value judgements... I was just looking for anything that stood out.  The better dispersion without Dead Eye and the increased damage of the Super Heavy AP I found interesting.

This I can attest to. MY secondaries hit rate testing usually takes about 14 minutes to 19 minutes to complete. And you all want like 100 tests?! AAAAAAAHHhhhhh!!!!!!!!!

bishoujo senshi sailor moon gif | WiffleGif

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1 hour ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

If you shoot from behind a rock and make him see you, but smoke up or just slide behind the rock, it is quite effective.

Regardless of whether this is a viable strategy or not, it doesn't break Deadeye as you need to be spotted do it. If you smoke up or go behind cover, aka get unspotted, Deadeye immediately activates again.

Again, the Deadeye skill only deactivates once there is a spotted ship within the base concealment of a BB.

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19 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Regardless of whether this is a viable strategy or not, it doesn't break Deadeye as you need to be spotted do it. If you smoke up or go behind cover, aka get unspotted, Deadeye immediately activates again.

Again, the Deadeye skill only deactivates once there is a spotted ship within the base concealment of a BB.

And depending on circumstances, removing an opponent's dispersion buff may not be worth the cost of half your HP, if another enemy BB 2km farther away, whose Deadeye still works, has the smarts to fire at the closer (than whatever else he was shooting) DD, and can aim.

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2 hours ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

 

Your tactics are good tactics...get in the back in a DD & spot (& all the benefits to your team that supplies)...has been since day 1 in the game...no doubting that.

Your understanding of the deadeye skill is misunderstood...

& due to your game count others will believe (aka...assume based on your experience) that your understanding is correct) even if wrong...

& I know you don't want to pass on wrong info (at least you haven't seemed like you have wanted to based on past postings...occasional nonsequiter ramblings for the sake of humor...yes...but intentional wrong info...not you) so just clarifying for that reason.

If an enemy ship has deadeye...his dotted detection ring on his mini map needs one of your teammates spotted/detected inside that ring to break deadeye.

IOW...your whole team can be inside that ring spotting him...but if zero of you are spotted/detected his deadeye is still active.

The pot shots only break the skill until you go dark again...& then the skill activates again until somebody on your team is spotted w/in that detection ring.

You keep stating that just spotting him breaks his deadeye & that is incorrect...just clarifying so you can pass on the correct data.

Firing while he is aimed completely away for you is a good way to break it as you can stay detected the whole time & keep his deadeye inactive while you're spotted...as long as he's isolated & doesn't have teammates close by to shoot at you & you can go dark before he brings his guns around to you...but when you go dark his skill activates again (Edit: So beware of firing at him from your smoke as his skill w/it's dispersion bonus is active for aiming at you in your smoke).

Edited by IfYouSeeKhaos

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3 hours ago, JCC45 said:

So just to see I took a Thunderer into the training room twice to see if there was a noticeable difference between two different builds.  I placed a non moving, non firing GK in and moved my Thunderer until I was perfectly broadside just out of standard detection range.  Ideal conditions.

The first build had Dead Eye but standard AP rounds.  To sink the GK took 7 Salvos with 42 of 56 shells hitting for 105,000 damage.  All shots fired at the upper belt to avoid citadels.

The second build took Super Heavy AP and no Dead Eye.  To sink the GK took 6 Salvos with 37 of 48 shells hitting for 105,000 damage.  All shots fired at the upper belt to avoid citadels.

The non Dead Eye build had a slightly higher hit percentage (77% vs 75%) and delivered more average damage per shell (2,837 per shell vs. 2,500).

 

Something to think about.

 

Couple things about that..seems odd that the dispersion buff was less accurate...did you wait after firing w/the deadeye until your gun bloom went back down (seems you would need to due to reload times but if you stutter fired turrets it may have still been bloomed out so just clarifying) as that would cancel out the skill while your detection was bloomed out.

Also...think the idea of the added deadeye dispersion is to be able to aim for citadels better so intentionally not aiming for them kinda defeats the purpose of the skill..same w/the super heavy skill as ideally you want to be getting the extra damage percentage on cit hits.

Edited by IfYouSeeKhaos

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Deadeye relies on standard detection, which is what you enter the battle with.  Thus base detection minus any camo, modules or commander skills.  In-battle-activated modifications due to gun bloom, fires or storms are not part of the Deadeye calculation.

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12 hours ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

Couple things about that..seems odd that the dispersion buff was less accurate...did you wait after firing w/the deadeye until your gun bloom went back down (seems you would need to due to reload times but if you stutter fired turrets it may have still been bloomed out so just clarifying) as that would cancel out the skill while your detection was bloomed out.

Also...think the idea of the added deadeye dispersion is to be able to aim for citadels better so intentionally not aiming for them kinda defeats the purpose of the skill..same w/the super heavy skill as ideally you want to be getting the extra damage percentage on cit hits.

Gun bloom has no effect on Dead Eye.

The idea of Dead Eye is to decrease dispersion by 10%... nothing more or less.  I avoided aiming for the citadels because it was a GK and I didn't want the turtleback armor giving skewed results.  It really doesn't matter where you aim as long as you are consistently aiming at the same place.

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