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Ensign_Cthulhu

Playing around with Flint...

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...I was struck by something that @NoZoupForYou brought up in one of his more recent videos:

 

And even though the captain I wanted to assign to it (Binational Hockey Ovechkin) doesn't have the full 21 points, I set myself to thinking what I could do with the fifteen I have and the way I play the Flint (and the Boise, and the Makarov). And that's when it struck me that not every nerf is necessarily a bad thing. That's right, folks, Heavy AP Shells doesn't work on the Flint and blows out the concealment by five percent. So I thought hang on, how bad can I make my concealment?

Turns out if I don't take Concealment Expert (which I never had on my Atlanta captain anyway), I can blow my Flint's concealment out to 10.7km, or about 500 metres short of my maximum gun range. And that carries with it two corollaries:

1) Most bots are normally going to be moving toward me anyway, and any bot moving away from me in that range gap is probably going to see my shells falling short of its stern anyway.

2) Top Grade Gunner (with the small DPM buff it grants) is going to be active almost all the damn time.

3) With so many shells going out, statistical chance will keep my fire-starting rate within decent parameters.

So I took the skill that magnifies HE and SAP shells, I took Top Grade Gunner, and I took IFHE. Concealment doesn't matter as much in Co-op, and I have the smokescreen to make up for what little disadvantage remains.

I'm fairly content with the results. If I want a captain that's better for Randoms, my 21 pointer will do that.

Edited by Ensign_Cthulhu

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52 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

So I took the skill that magnifies HE and SAP shells, I took Top Grade Gunner, and I took IFHE. Concealment doesn't matter as much in Co-op, and I have the smokescreen to make up for what little disadvantage remains.

I'm fairly content with the results. If I want a captain that's better for Randoms, my 21 pointer will do that.

Interesting concept.  Do you have any screenshots of the results, I'm curious to see how this worked out?

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Concealment doesn't mean anything anyways in most situations.
IE, if you fire your guns, you are automatically spotted out to maximum gun range anyways on all ships.
So even if your Cruiser has 10.9km concealment, but the maximum main battery range is 14km, you are visible up to 14km, as soon as you fire that main battery.

Edited by Ericmopar

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The range issue is, obviously, a raw deal. The ranges for USN 127mm/38s are all over the damn place in this game, and it's kinda infuriating; there should be at most one base range for each mount type (single/open, single/open DP, single/shielded, single/fully enclosed DP, double/enclosed, and double/enclosed DP), primary or secondary, period. It's the same gun. They're all the same gun. There's a reason the things were standardized across the fleet: consistency. Ease of training gun crews for any ship they might be assigned to- commonality of parts and ammunition, reliability in performance, redundancy upon redundancy. C'mon, WG.

Masochist that I must secretly be, however, I burned my ships-for-resources coupon on Flint today. I already had both versions of Atlanta, so the hull and its performance are old hat. I was attracted mainly by A: The Holy Grail, Certified 100% 1968-LA-Grade American Smog, and B: A compulsive desire to own every available USN ship I can get my filthy paws on, especially the ones which actually floated.

Observations:

- Holy crap, there are buttloads of USN cruisers at T7, and I have them all now! I should feel more shame about spending that much money and time on the redheaded stepchild of the WoWs matchmaking spread, but I do not.

- Yes, it's silly that Atlanta got AFT baked in with the rebork and Flint didn't. Smoke is what Flint gets in exchange for losing two turrets and radar. They should have the same base range.

- Yeah, Flint is basically an extra-chonky DD with moar dakka and really awkwardly placed torpedoes.

- Hot take: the new HE skill is actually better than BFT was for both Atlanta and Flint. It's a 10% bonus to DPM either way, but 10% more damage frontloaded is always better than 10% more that only kicks in on your 11th volley. These ships don't lean heavily enough on AP to make me cry about losing AP DPM; the barrel count and base fire rate make it easy enough to chainsaw through broadsiding bots at close range anyway. 127mms sneak in under the detection penalty (which picks up at 149mm), and since it's a premium cruiser you can just spec in any old captain to avoid "wasting" a CL or CA line commander on a dedicated Atlanta/Flint build under the new system. I let my trio of My 600lb-Life reject DDs adopt my Fletcher captain (Dusty Rodes, currently at 17pts) as their shared skipper, now that I can have a torp DD spec and a HE spam cruiser spec on the same John Wayne.

- I somehow never realized that Flint's torps have more than twice the range, what the heck is that about? Not that it matters against bots, because they laugh off torp drops from a third of that distance all the damn time.

- I can see how range would be a massive issue in PvP, but closing to within 11km with bots is never an issue unless you try to hide in the back.

- She is also more user-friendly than Atlanta in co-op, owing to Skynet still treating smoke as a Romulan cloaking device, which completely mitigates being on the lower end of T7 cruiser HP pools.

- All hail Bofors 40mm, the electrified flyswatter to co-op's bot carrier permaspotting. Suck on dakka, uptiered skycancer!

- Since the bots nearly always will be inside 9km very shortly after they're within 11km, Top-Grade Gunner plus whatever the HE skill is called gives you nearly 2x the DPM boost (10% damage + 8% fire rate) with 127mms that BFT used to, for most of the game, with zero penalties, and that's hilarious. Rush me in a T9 DD, will you? Here, have two Gearings' worth of 5" blap and go cry to the Master Control Program.

- Yeah, if I'd put in a major effort to rank out in comp play, or dropped a bajillion steel on this thing, I'd feel pretty ripped off right now. The coal price was also kind of excessive, even with the coupon... but she's a fun boat for bopping bots with, and that's all I really need. Also, I knew what I was getting into, and people who owned the ship before the rework didn't, and that's pretty huge too.

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15 hours ago, Ericmopar said:

Concealment doesn't mean anything anyways in most situations.

I know it doesn't, but the use of Top Grade Gunner relies on the enemy being inside that distance. I remember there were (and still might be) some ships whose concealment is WORSE than their maximum gun range (Pensacola used to be like this and stock Knyaz Suvorov possibly still is, although she can't take that skill).

10 hours ago, KilljoyCutter said:

The loss of 2+ km of range is crippling. 

In co-op? Really?

In co-op, I live by the motto of "Engage the enemy more closely". You're talking to a guy whose fondest memory of this game is brawling a bot Izumo in my Monarch and finally blowing it away at point-blank range while Elgar's Pomp and Circumstance (Land of Hope and Glory) thundered in the background, and you really expect me to care that my Flint can only shoot out to 11km now?

6 hours ago, Wrath_Of_Deadguy said:

Rush me in a T9 DD, will you? Here, have two Gearings' worth of 5" blap and go cry to the Master Control Program.

:Smile_veryhappy:

6 hours ago, Wrath_Of_Deadguy said:

Also, I knew what I was getting into, and people who owned the ship before the rework didn't, and that's pretty huge too.

By the time I dropped the full up-front coal price on Flint, I'd already been practising in the Atlanta without a BFT/AFT captain and I'd already been shown the silver lining. Inspired by this, I stopped caring about the range nerf in the co-op context. I made a video on it in which I absolutely wrecked bot face (six kills out of nine), and a lot of people got upset. Flint was an easy buy. I would have got her a year ago, but I got a supercontainer with steel in it which was enough to let me get the Black. Good thing, too, given that we've not yet seen hide or hair of her as a coal ship.

Edited by Ensign_Cthulhu

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That range thing really annoys me too. The truth is that if anything battleship 5"/38's should have a longer range than destroyers with the same gun because the higher the elevation of the gun the longer the range. The difference is very slight, but a North Carolina should have at least the same secondary range as the main gun on a Fletcher or Gearing (or Flint or Atlanta).

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Just now, Swervenkill said:

because the higher the elevation of the gun the longer the range

To a point, then the range actually starts DROPPING again. 

Because of the way a shell actually flies and the effect of air drag, the maximum range is actually reached at a LOWER elevation than the theoretical 45 degrees (as it would be in a vacuum). Anything after that is only good for angle of fire against aircraft, or if you're lobbing shells over a high obstacle (which is what howitzers and mortars are for on land).

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The American one and two gun turrets have an elevation beyond the max range of the gun (for shooting at aircraft). So the gun, angled at optimum for range will fire further the higher the gun is. However, because of wind resistance the shells drop more vertically the further from the gun and the range difference becomes negligible (which I think I mentioned). 8 year Navy vet here, my first destroyer had the 5"/54 gun on it just like the Midway's in the game. They teach us all about ballistics, a little of it stuck.

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Because of the relatively shorter buffer between detection range with concealment (9.6km) and firing range (11.1km) with the Flint, maybe top grade gunner is a good choice even with concealment expert, and even in a random battle.

That would mean four 4-point skills (top grade gunner, IFHE, Concealment), and if you do have 21 points you can still get Heavy HE (which I would argue you would get as your only 3 point skill if you had to choose one) AND you can still get adrenaline rush, along with last stand (she's squishy) and priority target (well that would be my 2-point choice).

Reload can go down to 4.5 seconds not including adrenaline rush, and probably most of the time if you are in range to engage you won't be able to reliably keep something within that 9.6 to 11.1km, the target will either be out of range or within detection range before long.

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On 1/29/2021 at 1:07 AM, Wrath_Of_Deadguy said:

The range issue is, obviously, a raw deal.

...

- Yeah, if I'd put in a major effort to rank out in comp play, or dropped a bajillion steel on this thing, I'd feel pretty ripped off right now. The coal price was also kind of excessive, even with the coupon... but she's a fun boat for bopping bots with, and that's all I really need. Also, I knew what I was getting into, and people who owned the ship before the rework didn't, and that's pretty huge too.

The range is a very raw deal.  The loss of 2km+ of range greatly reduces the opportunity to engage, and especially the zone of attacking without being spotted when using smoke. 

And yes, after scraping together Steel for nearly two years of flake events, paltry mission rewards, and sticking my toe into Ranked, I'm more than a little irked that less that a year after I got the ship, Wargaming decided to take a giant steaming crap on it.

 

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