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Caldorus

Three areas that need to be looked at

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These three things make the game unbalanced for an arcade game that promote "balance"

CV's/DD's and view mechanics

CV's are the most OP things in this game that are fun yet annoying to face. They have the biggest advantage out all the ships and least to lose when playing.
Advantages:

  • Can attack from anywhere
  • Ship is less likely to be attacked compared to others
  • Can spot easily compared to DD's
  • Have insane damage control parties that are automatic and last for a minute
  • Fighters act as recon squad

There is more you can go into depth on these areas. Aircraft also have high survival against AA unless its going up against higher tiers. AA almost seems pointless against some CV's like the FDR that just have Large squads with HIGH HP pools

This video has a better breakdown of everything 

 I don't totally agree with removing them and do agree they are a big aspect in the ships from back then but i think they should of refined the RTS aspect more and more automated and balanced the AA system better. 

DD's have been buffed to the point that they are just too hard to kill and also have some of the biggest advantages. If we go by the real aspect of these ships they are suppose to be screen ships and play more of a escort support role back in the day. On here they are more of assassin and scouts.
Advantages:

  • Hard to kill due to lack of citadel(this was removed) and pen's from High cal AP shells do 1/5 of the damage same with cruiser AP
  • Hard to find due to view range mechanics giving DD's a great advantage over non radar ships.
  • Smoke mechanics give DD's great advantage over other ships without it and hard to spot/hit in smoke
  • Torpedoes on DD's are great deterrent against enemy flanks from moving (Torp boat DD's)
  • Greater speeds than most other ships and maneuverability (depending on the DD)  

These ships seem to be some of the biggest game influencer's and not to much can counter them since they go out of view and are hard to hit at ranges. I like dd's but i still think their roles should be closer to how they were actually meant to be.

View mechanics is all sorts of fudged and honestly plenty of it does not make sense in a naval stand point. From just talking to people in the navy and most the weather conditions that are given on this game you should be able to see anything within a 16km (10miles) line of sight from the deck of a ship not including equipment used to see farther. Yet a vessel within 10km (6.2miles) cannot be spotted in game on a clear day because of its concealment.

If you are in the visible line of sight of a ship you should be visible unless there is an island behind you or if you are facing bow/stern towards that target and have not been spotted from showing you're side.
The reason why I bring up spotting/view mechanics is because of this games tend to last longer and ships of various classes can just some how disappear without smoke even though in line of sight which does not make any sense at all in a naval aspect. It is like for some odd reason every ship in this game was apart of the Philadelphia experiment.

You go behind an island or if no one has line of sight on you or you smoke i can understand not being visible. Another thing to add is there needs to be a flash bloom in the smoke which would make it more realistic.

 

These 3 things tend to affect the game in a large way and i think they need to be looked at more. Make the CV and DD enjoyable but not to the point that they overpower everything else. Put DD's in their actual roles as screen ships/escort support role as intended rather than these ninja lone wolf assassins.

CV's planes should go back to a RTS kind of play with more automated on attacks with smarter AI aircraft movement. Add a proper scout plane. add a support plane that does smoke or healing.

This is just a start of the conversation. I know there are more valid point to point out and some people have more thought on this. Feedback both supportive and counter are enthused. These are the 3 main things I think the game needs to work on to find a proper balance.

 

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1 hour ago, Caldorus said:

These three things make the game unbalanced for an arcade game that promote "balance"

CV's/DD's and view mechanics

CV's are the most OP things in this game that are fun yet annoying to face. They have the biggest advantage out all the ships and least to lose when playing.
Advantages:

  • Can attack from anywhere
  • Ship is less likely to be attacked compared to others
  • Can spot easily compared to DD's
  • Have insane damage control parties that are automatic and last for a minute
  • Fighters act as recon squad

There is more you can go into depth on these areas. Aircraft also have high survival against AA unless its going up against higher tiers. AA almost seems pointless against some CV's like the FDR that just have Large squads with HIGH HP pools

This video has a better breakdown of everything 

 I don't totally agree with removing them and do agree they are a big aspect in the ships from back then but i think they should of refined the RTS aspect more and more automated and balanced the AA system better. 

DD's have been buffed to the point that they are just too hard to kill and also have some of the biggest advantages. If we go by the real aspect of these ships they are suppose to be screen ships and play more of a escort support role back in the day. On here they are more of assassin and scouts.
Advantages:

  • Hard to kill due to lack of citadel(this was removed) and pen's from High cal AP shells do 1/5 of the damage same with cruiser AP
  • Hard to find due to view range mechanics giving DD's a great advantage over non radar ships.
  • Smoke mechanics give DD's great advantage over other ships without it and hard to spot/hit in smoke
  • Torpedoes on DD's are great deterrent against enemy flanks from moving (Torp boat DD's)
  • Greater speeds than most other ships and maneuverability (depending on the DD)  

These ships seem to be some of the biggest game influencer's and not to much can counter them since they go out of view and are hard to hit at ranges. I like dd's but i still think their roles should be closer to how they were actually meant to be.

View mechanics is all sorts of fudged and honestly plenty of it does not make sense in a naval stand point. From just talking to people in the navy and most the weather conditions that are given on this game you should be able to see anything within a 16km (10miles) line of sight from the deck of a ship not including equipment used to see farther. Yet a vessel within 10km (6.2miles) cannot be spotted in game on a clear day because of its concealment.

If you are in the visible line of sight of a ship you should be visible unless there is an island behind you or if you are facing bow/stern towards that target and have not been spotted from showing you're side.
The reason why I bring up spotting/view mechanics is because of this games tend to last longer and ships of various classes can just some how disappear without smoke even though in line of sight which does not make any sense at all in a naval aspect. It is like for some odd reason every ship in this game was apart of the Philadelphia experiment.

You go behind an island or if no one has line of sight on you or you smoke i can understand not being visible. Another thing to add is there needs to be a flash bloom in the smoke which would make it more realistic.

 

These 3 things tend to affect the game in a large way and i think they need to be looked at more. Make the CV and DD enjoyable but not to the point that they overpower everything else. Put DD's in their actual roles as screen ships/escort support role as intended rather than these ninja lone wolf assassins.

CV's planes should go back to a RTS kind of play with more automated on attacks with smarter AI aircraft movement. Add a proper scout plane. add a support plane that does smoke or healing.

This is just a start of the conversation. I know there are more valid point to point out and some people have more thought on this. Feedback both supportive and counter are enthused. These are the 3 main things I think the game needs to work on to find a proper balance.

 

I don't know if you are aware but the game is theoretically compressed into a 1/2 ratio (approximately) in relation to IRL.

The best detection you can get is either the Kagero sisters (Asashio & Harekazi) of 5.4km (which approximately equates to 10.8km) or the very rare Gearing w/UU & Halsey after a double strike which gets down to 5.04 or thereabouts (which approximately equals 10.08km).

So even though still a bit unrealistic it's not as unrealistic as it seems (10.8 of 16km as opposed to the 5.4 of 16km). 8km detection in game would be about standard 16km IRL.

For comparison...the biggest maps are 42km (approximately 26 miles) which is about 84km (52 miles) comparison to IRL.

Edited by IfYouSeeKhaos

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49 minutes ago, Caldorus said:

View mechanics is all sorts of fudged and honestly plenty of it does not make sense in a naval stand point. From just talking to people in the navy and most the weather conditions that are given on this game you should be able to see anything within a 16km (10miles) line of sight from the deck of a ship not including equipment used to see farther. Yet a vessel within 10km (6.2miles) cannot be spotted in game on a clear day because of its concealment.

The concealment system is an adaption from the one used in WOT. There is a good reason for it being so "simplistic" in that otherwise BBs with long-range guns would dominate other ships, if RNG cooperates. Realistic view points or considerations of "how it was historically" or "in reality" don't hold much water in this game as it is just that: a game. It is therefore desinged with game mechanics meant to balance out the interactions between all surface ships:

  • your concealment (i.e. how far out you can be detected) is (almost, rework changes this slightly) always smaller than your gun range. This means, that in theory everything that can spot you is in your gun range.
  • gun range and concealment correlate to a good degree with tankiness and alpha strike, gun caliber etc. So if you are outgunned by another ship, you can at least expect to outspot it, thus you have the initiative in whether to open fire or to disengage.

Therefore, if the spotting system would be changed to something realistic it would require a massive re-balancing of all the ships and how they interact. I mean imagine there was no concealment and only the render distance as we have it now. A lot of light cruisers and DDs, as well as some CAs would no longer be viable at all due to BBs and some CAs just sniping them from the get go. To mitigate this the armor models etc. of all ships would need to be remodeled to provide some form of mitigation.

Try to think about how you would balance a DD, CA, BB in a game without the concealment system and you will notice that the roles they play now only work because of this. Therefore, if you plan to remove or significantly alter the system you would have to rebalance everything.

1 hour ago, Caldorus said:

DD's have been buffed to the point that they are just too hard to kill and also have some of the biggest advantages. If we go by the real aspect of these ships they are suppose to be screen ships and play more of a escort support role back in the day. On here they are more of assassin and scouts.
Advantages:

  • Hard to kill due to lack of citadel(this was removed) and pen's from High cal AP shells do 1/5 of the damage same with cruiser AP
  • Hard to find due to view range mechanics giving DD's a great advantage over non radar ships.
  • Smoke mechanics give DD's great advantage over other ships without it and hard to spot/hit in smoke
  • Torpedoes on DD's are great deterrent against enemy flanks from moving (Torp boat DD's)
  • Greater speeds than most other ships and maneuverability (depending on the DD)  

These ships seem to be some of the biggest game influencer's and not to much can counter them since they go out of view and are hard to hit at ranges. I like dd's but i still think their roles should be closer to how they were actually meant to be.

Some DDs seem hard to kill, but they have good counters in things like light and heavy cruisers. A BB should have a hard time dealing with a torpedo boat as these are designed to counter them (from a game design perspective). The issue from my point of view lies more in the fragility of BBs with respect to fires and HE spam. Torpedoes or AP are not the largest threat to a BB, it is usually a light cruiser with rapid fire HE that just melts them. Conversely, the shotgun nature of most BBs makes it really hard to punish these light cruisers reliably, making it very hard for a BB to push into one. You either get a bunch of overpens or half your shells go into the water. Rarely you get a dev strike on most light cruisers (since citadel overpens are a thing).

So in an odd twist, light cruisers are actually pretty good in burning down and dealing with BBs, making them another counter to BBs while it should be the other way around.

There are a lot of elements in this game that have gone out of balance over time. Just look at the proliferation of bigger and bigger guns at higher tiers, which was required for overmatching cruiser armor. Cruiser armor needed overmatching since they became too hard to kill due to inaccurate guns, lower citadels in cruisers, and citadel overpens. Ideally a cruiser could angle against some BB AP, but their bow/stern could be overmatched and once their broadside is exposed they just explode or take massive damage. Now look at something like a Cleveland or Smolensk and how vulnerable they actually are in practice to BB AP.

I don't think there is just a few elements in game that need addressing (apart from how CVs are just bolted on to the core mechanic and thus breaking a good chunk of it, to great detriment of the game overall) and it is more a matter of design decisions and changes to the balancing loop that made things feel out of balance. My largest gripe personally is with the over-reliance on RNG based mechanics to balance things instead of skill-based approaches (fires instead of weak points, BBs being shotguns with overmatch instead of precise guns with very limited overmatch and thus making angling effective on almost all ships while punishing broadsides hard).

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Oh no! CV is game breaking!

Well, on the bright side, I know the world isn't ending. Our weekly anti-CV post has gone live! :Smile_great:

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55 minutes ago, Lose_dudes said:

Oh no! CV is game breaking!

Well, on the bright side, I know the world isn't ending. Our weekly anti-CV post has gone live! :Smile_great:

Yes, as if we were hoping at least one thing could be left behind in 2020. And yet, like the Cylons...

It returns. 

 

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You know, I once saw a DD slip through a double CV flyover and sink both CVs. The player seemed large than life. I am sure he is something special to someone. LOL

Players on his team were so dumbfounded by this heinous act of DD bravado with gonads the size of Jupiter that they completely forgot how to play and lost the match anyway.

Yeah, this awesome player of epic DD skills I witnessed single handedly sunk the entire CV force of Red Team and yet his own team fumbled the game away. His great epic play a footnote only. Totally forgotten.

Sure, I am hoping to see that player do it again some day, but I am not sure. They are seldom on in Randoms. 

I heard that player makes Petros have nightmares in their Benham. 

Will we ever see this Naval Legend again? 

Only time will tell. Rumor has it, they can only be summoned by a Dragon. :cap_look:

 

Edited by SteelRain_Rifleman

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2 hours ago, Caldorus said:

This is just a start of the conversation.

No, this just another whiny rant post.

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3 hours ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

I don't know if you are aware but the game is theoretically compressed into a 1/2 ratio (approximately) in relation to IRL.

The best detection you can get is either the Kagero sisters (Asashio & Harekazi) of 5.4km (which approximately equates to 10.8km) or the very rare Gearing w/UU & Halsey after a double strike which gets down to 5.04 or thereabouts (which approximately equals 10.08km).

So even though still a bit unrealistic it's not as unrealistic as it seems (10.8 of 16km as opposed to the 5.4 of 16km). 8km detection in game would be about standard 16km IRL.

For comparison...the biggest maps are 42km (approximately 26 miles) which is about 84km (52 miles) comparison to IRL.

Well that being so then that means if using binoculars or a scope on a ship for spotting range dumbs it down to 24km (15 miles) the RL scale is 48km (30miles). Now if we go back to the 10miles and half that it leads to 8km but that is from spotting on deck without scopes or binoc's. I could see this if the conning tower on the ship was nocked out which would be a interesting module knock out reducing view range from 24km to 8km going by the game scale. Still the thing that bugs me is something in the ships long range sight just disappears not behind smoke/island. 

2 hours ago, shinytrashcan said:

The concealment system is an adaption from the one used in WOT. There is a good reason for it being so "simplistic" in that otherwise BBs with long-range guns would dominate other ships, if RNG cooperates. Realistic view points or considerations of "how it was historically" or "in reality" don't hold much water in this game as it is just that: a game. It is therefore desinged with game mechanics meant to balance out the interactions between all surface ships:

  • your concealment (i.e. how far out you can be detected) is (almost, rework changes this slightly) always smaller than your gun range. This means, that in theory everything that can spot you is in your gun range.
  • gun range and concealment correlate to a good degree with tankiness and alpha strike, gun caliber etc. So if you are outgunned by another ship, you can at least expect to outspot it, thus you have the initiative in whether to open fire or to disengage.

Therefore, if the spotting system would be changed to something realistic it would require a massive re-balancing of all the ships and how they interact. I mean imagine there was no concealment and only the render distance as we have it now. A lot of light cruisers and DDs, as well as some CAs would no longer be viable at all due to BBs and some CAs just sniping them from the get go. To mitigate this the armor models etc. of all ships would need to be remodeled to provide some form of mitigation.

Try to think about how you would balance a DD, CA, BB in a game without the concealment system and you will notice that the roles they play now only work because of this. Therefore, if you plan to remove or significantly alter the system you would have to rebalance everything.

Some DDs seem hard to kill, but they have good counters in things like light and heavy cruisers. A BB should have a hard time dealing with a torpedo boat as these are designed to counter them (from a game design perspective). The issue from my point of view lies more in the fragility of BBs with respect to fires and HE spam. Torpedoes or AP are not the largest threat to a BB, it is usually a light cruiser with rapid fire HE that just melts them. Conversely, the shotgun nature of most BBs makes it really hard to punish these light cruisers reliably, making it very hard for a BB to push into one. You either get a bunch of overpens or half your shells go into the water. Rarely you get a dev strike on most light cruisers (since citadel overpens are a thing).

So in an odd twist, light cruisers are actually pretty good in burning down and dealing with BBs, making them another counter to BBs while it should be the other way around.

There are a lot of elements in this game that have gone out of balance over time. Just look at the proliferation of bigger and bigger guns at higher tiers, which was required for overmatching cruiser armor. Cruiser armor needed overmatching since they became too hard to kill due to inaccurate guns, lower citadels in cruisers, and citadel overpens. Ideally a cruiser could angle against some BB AP, but their bow/stern could be overmatched and once their broadside is exposed they just explode or take massive damage. Now look at something like a Cleveland or Smolensk and how vulnerable they actually are in practice to BB AP.

I don't think there is just a few elements in game that need addressing (apart from how CVs are just bolted on to the core mechanic and thus breaking a good chunk of it, to great detriment of the game overall) and it is more a matter of design decisions and changes to the balancing loop that made things feel out of balance. My largest gripe personally is with the over-reliance on RNG based mechanics to balance things instead of skill-based approaches (fires instead of weak points, BBs being shotguns with overmatch instead of precise guns with very limited overmatch and thus making angling effective on almost all ships while punishing broadsides hard).

Yes and using such a system for a naval warfare game is rather eh... Works great for tanks because they hide not so much for ships that either they hug an island or smoke and camo was used for other means in naval besides hiding. The counter arguement i have with BB long range guns is that they are slow and can be avoided just from stopping or changing direction. Some bb's have faster shells than other but some not so much. BB guns don't seem to be much of a threat long range compared to mid-short because of ballistic characteristic's and the angles they come in. ever once in awhile you will get a citadel but that is few and far from what I see and experience. As much as BB's are able to shoot long range that does not give them good accuracy or good chance of hitting long range targets. Very few have such accuracy and most are more of bullet sponges mainly or suppose to be a deterrent fortress hard to move but even this does not happen much in game with the fire mechanics... 

I can see the overhaul on View mechanics being a PAIN so to say since everything would go to whack and making the armor like the RL values could draw the games longer that or make detonation's more common than they are and get rid of the Flag =P. 

I understand there are cruisers to counter DD's but the way the MM system been working there are hardly any cruisers if not 3-4 in a team the rest of the slots are like 4 dd's and a ton of bb's and 1 cv on each team sometimes. Like you were saying yes multiple systems need a rework/adjustment I.E. fire on BB's in general seem crazy the way it works and how fire suppression systems work back then. Maybe add in knocking out the system or something but for it to be as common as it is is rather  annoying. a CV can survive fires better in the game than a BB can.

Now with DD's being the BB counter I know why they did that but there should be more risk for the reward I.E. 2ndary's and their whole purpose was put on BB's to counter smaller ships like the DD so make them more accurate and make the dd play smarter rather than get as close as they do sometimes.

 

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"CV is unbalanced?, Easy, we create a skill called dead eye, now people will only say dead eye is unbalanced, nothing about CV anymore. LOL":Smile_playing:

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CVs need to catch fire, or even explode, a lot more easily.    They are huge fuel containers, and shouldn;t be able to take broadside after broadside and keep flying off planes like nothing is wrong.

In the rock-paper-scissors metric, CVs have a great attack range, but should be more fragile.

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