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Ensign_Cthulhu

Random Thoughts from Deep R'lyeh: the pending German DD split line.

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Just for fun, I put the 150mm guns on my Gaede and took her out into co-op for funsies, and decided to use AP only.

At its best it's really nasty and effective, but if AP is going to be the meta for the new destroyer line I hope the changes to autobounce angles are seriously meaningful.

I know it's sort of galling that the people who know everything about this can't say anything, but that is what it is.

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From what the deveblogs shows, that is indeed the case. The new german pseudo cruisers will enjoy improved auto-ricochet angles, as well as increased penetration.

Yet, however, I believe that is the least of these destroyer’s problems. Even if the AP does good damage and will penetrate, the rate of fire of those guns are just way too low. Even with increased AP damage per shell, the fact that the destroyers have only 6 guns that fires every 7.5 seconds stock makes her DPM, with AP, one of the worst amongst all tier X destroyers. 

Not only that, the ship have little combat fallbacks. By that I mean the ships doesn’t have additional tricks and trinkets that will help them get out of trouble. The are supposed to have no smoke, sub par detectability, mediocre maneuverability, all the while being a huge target with very bulky hulls to catch enemy shells, with no damage repair consumable to remedy the damage. 

The ship can be easily threatened, but does not pose enough of a threat against its opponents. While I am certain that the ships in their current state will not be competitive, I have no doubt that WG will eventually buff the ships to a more balanced state.

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22 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Just for fun, I put the 150mm guns on my Gaede and took her out into co-op for funsies, and decided to use AP only.

At its best it's really nasty and effective, but if AP is going to be the meta for the new destroyer line I hope the changes to autobounce angles are seriously meaningful.

I know it's sort of galling that the people who know everything about this can't say anything, but that is what it is.

Improved ricochet angles have already been announced from day one

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Add missiles Lad and let's get serious.....    Sorry, couldn't resist.

At some point, even the non-smoke DD become............what?  To what end?  To what use?  Another collectable snowflake ship?  Change the meta isn't in this concept because this is a DD we are talking about.   Should they fix anything?  No.  There are dozens of ships deployed that are sorely missing "that little extra" change that would make them.........meta capable.  The 30 + second reloads in some new BB's......as an example.  The list is endless because, in the end, most new ships are designed as collectables........not, as meta change instruments. 

What would change the meta would be a counter Radar consumable or a dedicated AA DD platform with AA specific radar.....  Give me a IJN Aki class AAA ship with an AAA mission, then, let's talk meta changes......  Something like that.

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13 minutes ago, The_first_harbinger said:

Snip.

Going off preliminary stats these ships are in a pretty bad spot indeed. Light cruiser hunters that can't really threaten them because the DPM difference is pretty damn big. Tier X DD with the turning circle of Georgia, lack of Engine Boost, huge targets, these things as they are have the hallmarks of cannon fodder. Besides there are ships already in the game that are pretty much superior in any way, like the FR DDs, especially the high tier ones with the Reload Booster, large caliber combo.

I'm also certain the ships will be buffed, though I feel they will need to be buffed ALOT to be at least somewhat acceptable. 

Last, can't help but wonder whether some of these ships could instead form the basis of a distinct German CL line.

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13 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

At some point, even the non-smoke DD become............what?  To what end?  To what use?  Another collectable snowflake ship?  Change the meta isn't in this concept because this is a DD we are talking about.   Should they fix anything?  No.  There are dozens of ships deployed that are sorely missing "that little extra" change that would make them.........meta capable.  The 30 + second reloads in some new BB's......as an example.  The list is endless because, in the end, most new ships are designed as collectables........not, as meta change instruments.

I agree. For now WG seems to have yet to settle on how to make the new german destroyers special. While I don’t think every new ship line should shake down the meta, they need to be uniquely competitive to have a place in the game.

I can see several route that this new destroyer line could go. These are some of the heaviest and the biggest destroyers in the game, and according to some sources, they even have around 50mm of belt armour at least for the tier X. WG can give these DDs either damage repair, or FR DD’s special saturation formula, or even both, to push these destroyers into legendary status when it comes to survivability.

Alternatively they can focus on the guns. The guns themselves are not bad, especially with the AP, the ships are only let down by having only 6 of them and having a slow reload. WG have a whole set of tools that could really improve the threat these guns can pose. Short AP fuse against destroyers, improved reload, faster shell speeds, reload booster, etc. etc.

These ships are very different than all existing destroyers, and I think the potentials are real. 

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4 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

Going off preliminary stats these ships are in a pretty bad spot indeed.

I know. My first thought was "With stats like these, how do they expect this concept to work?" It's a pity we don't get to see the history of these ships in development the way we used to, because I think it would be a very interesting gestation to observe.

However, I'm reminded of the two things they changed on the British destroyers just before release ("No speed boost on a DD? What madness is this?") that turned them from a potential dumpster fire into a popular and capable line, which were the torpedo-spread options (from wide + single to narrow + single) and the baked-in British CL-type acceleration. Without playing one of these German split DDs for myself (which I can't, because I'm not a supertester or CC), I can only guess that there's something about their handling which will come as a surprise to us, that's not reflected in the on-paper stats. 

That DOESN'T change the concern I have in my mind that WG might have gone a step too far with pushing the smokeless DD meta. French was fine, Swedish was okay if you don't mind the playstyle (though Smaland having to be pulled is a thing, so I guess it works well enough for enough people), but is this the point at which the concept smacks up against unpleasant realities? Only time will tell. 

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48 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

Last, can't help but wonder whether some of these ships could instead form the basis of a distinct German CL line.

That would be nice - I'm beginning to worry that all KMS CLs past tier 6 will be premium.

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52 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I know. My first thought was "With stats like these, how do they expect this concept to work?" It's a pity we don't get to see the history of these ships in development the way we used to, because I think it would be a very interesting gestation to observe.

Because the concept was an actual ship line that was designed by the Germans during Z-Plan.  Hence how this design came to fruition. 

 

One of these ships actually was laid down (SP1) 

 

I posted the history of this line in another thread. Here is it again.

 

image.thumb.png.b010e88c949afc7ecdcc82694882feb7.png

 

Technical Data

 

image.thumb.png.2f6a5e425d339af2914dbc39bc31a946.png

 

image.thumb.png.66748d531e8657c95e3f0b574be30dac.png

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I think the line as is is dead in the water. 

The have huge slugs of hit points for a destroyer, which means they may be able to trade at par with other destroyers that aren't IJN or Swedish high-tier gunboats, but only 'trading' in the sense that they have more health to trade against their opponent's DPM.

But 'huge slugs of hit points for a destroyer' is still noticeably less than same-tier light cruisers, which mostly have more hit points, more armor, more consumables, and much higher DPM. I simply don't see how they're going to make 150mm DDs worthwhile fighting light cruisers when they have the same or slower reload for half or 2/3 as many barrels and 2/3 to 3/4 of the hit points.

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Putting the Mainz type guns on a DD and then removing smoke and so forth makes them snacks for those intent on sinking DD's

You will find yourself with crappy AP performance with overpens, bounces and so forth that does nothing to the target while you are summarily destroyed preferably by HE.

I had considered the german DD line that features the bigger guns carefully earlier this year and find them not good for Wows. They are not survivable in battle against humans and the detection values are such that you might as well be driving cruisers anyway. And the reloads on the 150's will be just long enough to get yourself destroyed while your opposing DD gets away with less or no damage due to the AP etc.

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For me, it’s great that they are, and will stay awful..

at 414 ships now, I need a break after Strasbourg, Xmas Campaign, and full Hizen Shipyard 4,400 steel

i will ignore this garbage happily, and not look back...

 

I should have ignored Pan EU DD, and especially US slow BBs split, but this will be my line in the sand..

regards

jean

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I've used 150s on any german DD I can equip them with. Yes they are slow to reload but when they connect they hit like a truck. Unfortunately for the new Semi DD/CAs , looks like they are being introduced as nothing more than damage piñatas. 

We shall see what weegee will ""keep an eye on" next .

 

Edited by Versili

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I like that they advertise them as having "good armor", and its just the standard 19mm

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2 hours ago, Asym_KS said:

Add missiles Lad and let's get serious.....    Sorry, couldn't resist.

At some point, even the non-smoke DD become............what?  To what end?  To what use?  Another collectable snowflake ship?  Change the meta isn't in this concept because this is a DD we are talking about.   Should they fix anything?  No.  There are dozens of ships deployed that are sorely missing "that little extra" change that would make them.........meta capable.  The 30 + second reloads in some new BB's......as an example.  The list is endless because, in the end, most new ships are designed as collectables........not, as meta change instruments. 

What would change the meta would be a counter Radar consumable or a dedicated AA DD platform with AA specific radar.....  Give me a IJN Aki class AAA ship with an AAA mission, then, let's talk meta changes......  Something like that.

And it's not just whether they're meta-changers, it's whether they're playable. 

For example, the new USN BBs are, IMO, unplayable.  Long reload, crawling speed, etc.  

If we've reached the point where new ships are for collecting, not for playing, then yeah, the game isn't what I'm interested in.  

 

As for the new German "DDs", I'm just hoping that the split doesn't change the existing DDs in any way. 

Edited by KilljoyCutter

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2 hours ago, The_first_harbinger said:

I agree. For now WG seems to have yet to settle on how to make the new german destroyers special. While I don’t think every new ship line should shake down the meta, they need to be uniquely competitive to have a place in the game.

I can see several route that this new destroyer line could go. These are some of the heaviest and the biggest destroyers in the game, and according to some sources, they even have around 50mm of belt armour at least for the tier X. WG can give these DDs either damage repair, or FR DD’s special saturation formula, or even both, to push these destroyers into legendary status when it comes to survivability.

Alternatively they can focus on the guns. The guns themselves are not bad, especially with the AP, the ships are only let down by having only 6 of them and having a slow reload. WG have a whole set of tools that could really improve the threat these guns can pose. Short AP fuse against destroyers, improved reload, faster shell speeds, reload booster, etc. etc.

These ships are very different than all existing destroyers, and I think the potentials are real. 

I look at the game and ask the question:  "potential to do what?"   Gosh, I don't even play DD's in PVP anymore.  Nor, even play PVP anymore because of where the game has gone.  You would have to "open up the battlespace" to make DD's worth using.  Stealth has to mean something.  Counter DD missions where planes and radar "determine the battlespace" isn't a place for DD's to even be..........let along have a role........  Reactive versus Proactive.

Now, the fix is to make the battlespace something DD's can affect:  giving them a strong AA and anti-radar tool would give them a reason to take on a CAP and anything guarding it....  I have not seen a "meeting engagement" since Update 8.0 deployed.  All there is is what reacts to Planes, spotting and Radar.  Then, Radar takes the tactical side out of the equation and there is no where to go because Radar sees everything........  Even the super stealth DD's have to slink around because planes are always spotting everything because there is no Air Superiority requirements...... 

Potential in surface warfare is proportional to stealth and tactics.  On small maps, where there is no stealth, there are no tactical choices; because planes determines what goes on because they illuminate the entire small map at game start...... 

Eliminate immediate spotting and you allow for teams to use DD's in traditional roles !  And that, usually is when two SAG's collide.......  Then, a heavy gun DD just might have a stronger role.  JMO.

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15 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

And it's not just whether they're meta-changers, it's whether they're playable. 

For example, the new USN BBs are, IMO, unplayable.  Long reload, crawling speed, etc.  

If we've reached the point where new ships are for collecting, not for playing, then yeah, the game isn't what I'm interested in. 

As for the new German "DDs", I'm just hoping that the split doesn't change the existing DDs in any way. 

I suspect, the new lines are collectables.  What's the point of more powerful main guns if you are seen well before you can use them.....   Changes in existing ships after a split is inevitable......  Look at the IJN split: guns versus stealth topr boats.

I see the German split simply repeating the IJN split........ 

The entire BB expansion is collectable driven......  Yes, I like the Florida but, how many US BB's are enough?  The Hizen sits between the Yammy, Izumo, Kii and the Musashi.....?  Look at the German BB's......geeze....@!  They were all created to "collect" versus being serious meta tools that drive the battlespace mechanics....  Others can better describe those meta-drivers better than me........

So, our host will repeat what works: Nation after Nation of clones till there is nothing left to sell to Collectors.....  And, the meta will be driven by a hand full of ships.  New content?  A new meta is simply too expensive......  JMO

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I prefer what happened with the German BBs -- Scharnhorst, Tirpitz, Odin, and Pommern are variations on a theme, but they're all solid playable ships.  

Trying to make ships "unique" often just makes them bad.

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I'm going to reserve some judgement on these for the time being.

The shell stats are not fully known, and for instance if they also get something like the short fuse RN CL AP then you have Elbing with 24,600 AP alpha that can full-pen, plus better than DD accuracy and 960m/s rail guns. Landing all 6 hits would be 8,100 damage every 7.5s (minus reload mod/BFT-wannabes). That's not bad. I've also generally written off DD accuracy as 'good enough' so an improvement being marginal benefit, but sounds good to just counteract Dazzle at least.

Similarly the armor remains unknown, while the dev blog presumably gives the extremity plating (as it always does) there's no confirmation about belt or deck armor, 40-50mm and not taking BB AP full pens would give some protection against a lot of the CL and CA fire out there, and some HE rockets, and let you autobounce some heavy AP too.

With the above if you roll on a Gearing, smack it for 6-8k every 7s and see his HE shatter over most of your hull/casemate, while starting with 10k more HP you'll probably come off on top.

Otherwise, a key issue seems to be the AA which is weak and not really propped up by DFAA, that combined with a none-too-stealthy hull, no smoke, no repair does seem to suggest a degree of carrier bait.

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Have to wonder what advantage these ships will bring over existing smokeless DDs.

Better pen AP is pretty much cancelled out by  lack of HE and lower DPM.

Any HP advantage is cancelled by being a bigger, clumsier target. 

Armor? Khab levels would hardly compensate for its other flaws.

One idea would be to dump the smokeless DD thing and give them some form of Italian smoke. Short duration so it is mostly used defensively.

Hopefully WG has considered all this and sees advantages I do not. However...Yahagi.

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I do love my Gaede with 150's. I find them very comfortable to use.

For the new line, I'll just wait and see. I think they are yet barely taking form, the concept of heavy, beefy DDs with punchy guns remain interesting. 

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So the armor models and detailed stats are on GM3D.

  • 'Good armor' means 25mm amidships, which is good for shattering DD HE and bouncing some AP, but overall irrelevant against most incoming fire, and an absolute shot-trap for DD AP which will chunk you will full pens
  • The AP has approximately as good penetration as the Hindenburg's 203mm guns (really)
  • The AP does not have shorter than normal fuses, or lower arming threshold so it looks typically weak anti-DD (though at least 410 damage AP overpens don't care about FR DD saturation)

Not great, though 8in pen plus US CA bounce angles and better-than-destroyer accuracy...

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I was just on the wrong end of an Elbing volley.  Took half the health off my Smaland in one volley.  wth.  Angling did not bounce anything: it was still getting pens, but fewer shells landed on the slimmer profile.

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9 hours ago, n00bot said:

I was just on the wrong end of an Elbing volley.  Took half the health off my Smaland in one volley.  wth.  Angling did not bounce anything: it was still getting pens, but fewer shells landed on the slimmer profile.

Interesting. Has the feel of something that hits like US super-heavy AP but with British light cruiser fuzing.

Everyone's been saying on the basis of stats that this line was stillborn, but I've considered that there was something that wasn't showing up in the raw numbers and this might be it.

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On 3/1/2021 at 9:38 PM, n00bot said:

I was just on the wrong end of an Elbing volley.  Took half the health off my Smaland in one volley.  wth.  Angling did not bounce anything: it was still getting pens, but fewer shells landed on the slimmer profile.

I know it's probably too late to ask now, but do you happen to have a replay you could share?

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