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ProfessorLumpy

Let's talk German secondary buff.

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... Because I'm not seeing any nerf. The first day of the rework I struggled a little while everyone played the back row, but that seems to have settled down. Yesterday I played a dozen ranked games in GK with legendary upgrade and a full secondary build on a 19 point captain, and I'm finding huge success. Over 70 prevent winrate, more than 100k damage every match, secondaries doing 25% to 30% of damage consistently.

I find that the biggest bonus is the main battery reload. GK with the 406s, legendary upgrade, and the reload buff when inside secondary range is brutal. The second huge buff is guns firing on every target even when manual secondaries is engaged, with increased range and accuracy. It was said pre-rework that this is pointless because you've screwed up if you have more than one secondary target... But with 12.5 km range I'm seeing substantial incidental damage to random ships in range. 

This is a huge boon in the DD heavy meta of ranked right now. GK is a fantastic ship for getting in and supporting DDs in knife fights. 

At lower tiers, I've seen similar benefits. Most notably, Prinz Eitel Friedrich is now an absolute brawling beast at tier 6.

 

So I really don't get the talk of a Nerf. Is this just carrying over from training room testing done before rework that didn't represent the finished product?

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Did a test yesterday in the training room on a drake at 11.5km away. Got 23% accuracy on my GK.

It is not that bad, considering the main battery buff.

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Once I get my computer back , then I'll have to see how things have changed . Computer died about the 15th or so back in Nov.....ordered a new cpu , which sat in Chicago from the 24th of Nov until Jan 20th 2021 .

Finally got to use my daughter's Mac just to get on the forums this week. I miss shooting stuff.........Hopefully I get a call to get the desktop back in a day or so......

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43 minutes ago, ProfessorLumpy said:

So I really don't get the talk of a Nerf. Is this just carrying over from training room testing done before rework that didn't represent the finished product?

Some people are upset their secondaries are less accurate. However, the buff to range and the ability to use every gun on the ship is major. Combine that with the Close Qaurters skill and you've got an awesome brawling build, like you said. 

I think players just got used to seeing more secondary damage and it made them feel good to see those numbers when the automated secondaries made a player feel like he did well. In my mind, brawling isnt about secondaries, they're just an addition. I think a lot of players viewed brawling as a secondary based fight instead of maneuvering and main gun placement.

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43 minutes ago, Skuggsja said:

Some people are upset their secondaries are less accurate. However, the buff to range and the ability to use every gun on the ship is major. Combine that with the Close Qaurters skill and you've got an awesome brawling build, like you said. 

I think players just got used to seeing more secondary damage and it made them feel good to see those numbers when the automated secondaries made a player feel like he did well. In my mind, brawling isnt about secondaries, they're just an addition. I think a lot of players viewed brawling as a secondary based fight instead of maneuvering and main gun placement.

That's assuming your main guns were actually worth a damn. For Odin her secondaries were pretty much the only thing going for her, and now they hit less with main guns that are just as terrible as they were before.

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9 minutes ago, dagger1013 said:

That's assuming your main guns were actually worth a damn. For Odin her secondaries were pretty much the only thing going for her, and now they hit less with main guns that are just as terrible as they were before.

I disagree. Odin has decent guns. Uptiered she plays like a super cruiser and top or equal tier shes fine.

Edited by Skuggsja

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1 hour ago, Karstodes said:

Did a test yesterday in the training room on a drake at 11.5km away. Got 23% accuracy on my GK.

It is not that bad, considering the main battery buff.

It's much higher on BB's too.  In the games I've actually been able to get in secondary range..."mostly" secondarying BB's (it still involved a little shooting at CA's/DD's) I got 34% hit rate with the Mass B and a 30% hit rate with Pommern.

 

I will say shooting at DD's is absolutely not nearly as good as it used to be.  Had a game in the Mass B the only time I popped my secondaries was on a DD and only got 3 hits in 100 rounds fired.

Edited by Taco_De_Moist

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19 minutes ago, Skuggsja said:

I disagree. Odin has decent guns. Uptiered she plays like a super cruiser and top or equal tier shes fine.

Agree, I actually found her secondaries lack luster.  I love that ship and yes, pretty much exclusively sling AP and the shells do fine.  Good accuracy, can pen broadside BB's fine and they are cruiser killers.

Edited by Taco_De_Moist

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2 hours ago, ProfessorLumpy said:

... Because I'm not seeing any nerf. The first day of the rework I struggled a little while everyone played the back row, but that seems to have settled down. Yesterday I played a dozen ranked games in GK with legendary upgrade and a full secondary build on a 19 point captain, and I'm finding huge success. Over 70 prevent winrate, more than 100k damage every match, secondaries doing 25% to 30% of damage consistently.

I find that the biggest bonus is the main battery reload. GK with the 406s, legendary upgrade, and the reload buff when inside secondary range is brutal. The second huge buff is guns firing on every target even when manual secondaries is engaged, with increased range and accuracy. It was said pre-rework that this is pointless because you've screwed up if you have more than one secondary target... But with 12.5 km range I'm seeing substantial incidental damage to random ships in range. 

This is a huge boon in the DD heavy meta of ranked right now. GK is a fantastic ship for getting in and supporting DDs in knife fights. 

At lower tiers, I've seen similar benefits. Most notably, Prinz Eitel Friedrich is now an absolute brawling beast at tier 6.

 

So I really don't get the talk of a Nerf. Is this just carrying over from training room testing done before rework that didn't represent the finished product?

Cool Story!

 

Now do a DD.   You also are accepting a nerf to our secondary hit rate from the way it was previous to the patch.  Getting 100k does not equal balanced. Every deadeye ship can do that in about 8 minutes.

 

Go test it in the training room. I have done it. You will find the hit rate on DD's is abysmal.

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1 hour ago, Skuggsja said:

Some people are upset their secondaries are less accurate. However, the buff to range and the ability to use every gun on the ship is major. Combine that with the Close Qaurters skill and you've got an awesome brawling build, like you said. 

I think players just got used to seeing more secondary damage and it made them feel good to see those numbers when the automated secondaries made a player feel like he did well. In my mind, brawling isnt about secondaries, they're just an addition. I think a lot of players viewed brawling as a secondary based fight instead of maneuvering and main gun placement.

The real change (nerf) has been the ability to focus a target with 40-50% accuracy secondaries (like a DD while brawling).  The nerf is in "time to kill selected target" not overall "meaningless" splash damage of being able to shoot everyone in range.

If a DD with 5k HP rushes out at 7kms, the TIME to kill the DD is more important than getting some splash damage on a BB at 11kms while your ship is at risk.

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1 minute ago, Jitta77 said:

The real change (nerf) has been the ability to focus a target with 40-50% accuracy secondaries (like a DD while brawling).  The nerf is in "time to kill selected target" not overall "meaningless" splash damage of being able to shoot everyone in range.

If a DD with 5k HP rushes out at 7kms, the TIME to kill the DD is more important than getting some splash damage on a BB at 11kms while your ship is at risk.

Absolutely right.  The secondaries are the only real defense the german line has in close. They are slow, sluggish, etc....  Change the secondaries back

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23 minutes ago, Taco_De_Moist said:

It's much higher on BB's too.  In the games I've actually been able to get in secondary range..."mostly" secondarying BB's (it still involved a little shooting at CA's/DD's) I got 34% hit rate with the Mass B and a 30% hit rate with Pommern.

 

I will say shooting at DD's is absolutely not nearly as good as it used to be.  Had a game in the Mass B the only time I popped my secondaries was on a DD and only got 3 hits in 100 rounds fired.

Mass vs Terrible (moving, between 7km and 5km): 25.38 %

Mass vs Terrible (static at 10 km): 11.7 %

Mass vs terrible (moving, getting closer between 10km and 7km, mainly between 8km and 7km) : 15.8%

 

Graff Zeppelin  vs terrible (moving, getting closer between 9.5 km and 5.5km) : 28.3 %

Graff Zeppelin vs terrible( static at 9km): 26.47 %

 

Bismarck vs terrible( static at 9km): 11.11 %

Bismarck  vs terrible (moving, getting closer between 10km and 2.5 km ): 17%

 

Gk vs terrible (static at 10km): 11.70%

GK terrible (moving, getting closer between 10km and 3.5 km ): 14%

GK vs Yamato (static at 11.5km): 23.10%

It do not seems that worst than before.

 

 

 

 

 

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Keep in mind a bad situation against DDs gets far far worst if they are running the dazzle skill...lucky to hit them at all (I've been running it)...

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29 minutes ago, megahugenoob said:

Absolutely right.  The secondaries are the only real defense the german line has in close. They are slow, sluggish, etc....  Change the secondaries back

So what about every other battleship that doesnt have them....

 

32 minutes ago, Jitta77 said:

The real change (nerf) has been the ability to focus a target with 40-50% accuracy secondaries (like a DD while brawling).  The nerf is in "time to kill selected target" not overall "meaningless" splash damage of being able to shoot everyone in range.

If a DD with 5k HP rushes out at 7kms, the TIME to kill the DD is more important than getting some splash damage on a BB at 11kms while your ship is at risk.

I dunno, sounds like getting a free kill or damage by an automated system either way. 

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11 minutes ago, Skuggsja said:

So what about every other battleship that doesnt have them....

 

I dunno, sounds like getting a free kill or damage by an automated system either way. 

What other BBs are built for brawling?  Sure there are some anomalies like Mass and Ohio, but overall the german BB is the brawling line.

 

How many secondary spec Thunderers, conquerors, Montanas, Kremlins, etc... do you see?  None.   German BB's aren't snipers, other BB's aren't brawlers.

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honestly, i notice that im not racking up in the 200s or 300s of secondary hits as often as i did before, but its at a good enough level that i can enjoy it in Coop where itll get to be used, and, funnily enough, my French BBs, which i thought were going to be hammered by this secondary change, are actually pulling in more hits than my German BBs are, im not sure why, maybe ive gotten closer than i have with my Germans in them, maybe its because they have the extremely rapid fire 100mm and a lot of them at that, or they got a buff to stock accuracy like the Germans and WG forgot to mention it

Edited by tcbaker777

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1 hour ago, Skuggsja said:

I disagree. Odin has decent guns. Uptiered she plays like a super cruiser and top or equal tier shes fine.

Ah yes, you mean the guns that reload 3 seconds slower than other guns of the same caliber in her MM spread, with no access to the slot 6 reload mod, that cannot overmatch anything at her tier.

Her main gun reload was literally nerfed in exchange for secondary buffs when she was in development, and now those buffed secondaries got nerfed.

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9 minutes ago, dagger1013 said:

and now those buffed secondaries got nerfed.

questionable.

She do get more range and cheaper demo expert for it.

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Just now, Karstodes said:

questionable.

She do get more range and cheaper demo expert for it.

The guns could be 20 kilometer range and it would not matter if you cant hit anything.

 

Secondary BBs give up everything to spec into that.  They need to show tangible results to justify the expense.

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6 minutes ago, tcbaker777 said:

honestly, i notice that im not racking up in the 200s or 300s of secondary hits as often as i did before, but its at a good enough level that i can enjoy it in Coop where itll get to be used, and, funnily enough, my French BBs, which i thought were going to be hammered by this secondary change, are actually pulling in more hits than my German BBs are, im not sure why, maybe ive gotten closer than i have with my Germans in them, maybe its because they have the extremely rapid fire 100mm and a lot of them at that, or they got a buff to stock accuracy like the Germans and WG forgot to mention it

I noticed the same thing.  I think (for me) it comes down to a few things:

Fast firing secondary guns (especially if you have Adrenalin Rush),  low damage, but a lot of hits.

With the speed boost, you can control the engagement to get you closer and safe (JB especially).

If you go for a drive by, the location of the secondary guns really light stuff up (if you don't get the killing shot).

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1 hour ago, megahugenoob said:

Cool Story!

 

Now do a DD.   You also are accepting a nerf to our secondary hit rate from the way it was previous to the patch.  Getting 100k does not equal balanced. Every deadeye ship can do that in about 8 minutes.

 

Go test it in the training room. I have done it. You will find the hit rate on DD's is abysmal.

First, I don't believe that training room testing is very useful, it's representing a very unrealistic scenario 

That said, I agree that I have noticed I can't instantly melt DD the way I used to. However, I'm still killing DDs. Better yet, while I'm focused on a cruiser while angling against a battleship and his little DD friend appears from another angle, I'l have shots on the dd even before I focus him... And fires starting on all of them. And my main batteries are reloading and ready to pop. 

2 DDs? Not a problem. One is being chewed up with manual at a slightly lower rate than before, but his friend is still feeling some hurt with better then pre rework accuracy.

Yeah, I'm good with this trade-off.

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1 minute ago, ProfessorLumpy said:

First, I don't believe that training room testing is very useful, it's representing a very unrealistic scenario 

That said, I agree that I have noticed I can't instantly melt DD the way I used to. However, I'm still killing DDs. Better yet, while I'm focused on a cruiser while angling against a battleship and his little DD friend appears from another angle, I'l have shots on the dd even before I focus him... And fires starting on all of them. And my main batteries are reloading and ready to pop. 

2 DDs? Not a problem. One is being chewed up with manual at a slightly lower rate than before, but his friend is still feeling some hurt with better then pre rework accuracy.

Yeah, I'm good with this trade-off.

Are you perhaps playing Co Op or low tier?  I have done extensive testing using my GK and I cant come anywhere near the numbers you are reporting.  Posted these the other night. These were T10 random battles. Mostly firing at DD's

 

54 hits out of 470 shots is 11% hit rate.   13,140 damage.

17 hits out of 130 shots fired.   13% hit rate.   3713 raw damage.

I posted pics of GK build and captain build.  I have legendary mod and best captain available for secondaries.   This is not an anomaly. This is the new reality for secondary ships.

 

gk5.jpg

gk4.jpg

Gk1.jpg

pom5.jpg

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The problem is secondary builds needed a buff.  Instead they got a side grade at best (most did get a nerf) and they buffed the back line sniping build.  

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Just now, HallaSnackbar said:

The problem is secondary builds needed a buff.  Instead they got a side grade at best (most did get a nerf) and they buffed the back line sniping build.  

100%  This guy gets it.

 

Secondary builds lost the ability to couple AA defense in with secondary guns - (NERF)   Secondary builds all can be detected from the moon which means you are getting sniped out of the gate.  There is no extra captain skill points available for vigilance, torpedo protection, extra heals, etc.... even with a 21 pt captain.  

They priced the secondary build terribly.

 

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