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Hercules_C130

Changes Happen in all games

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To all:

There have been a lot of posts complaining about the commander changes.  I do not know how many that I have seen, but it is definitely higher than 10.  I do not know how many times that I have heard the saying: "The only constant is change".  I do not know who to cite, but I am certain someone will let me know.  The thing is that change happens in every game.  Many of you may not remember some of these, but I will give you examples in very popular games:

Baseball

  • Lowering the height of the mound to help hitters
  • The designated hitter in the American League (You can still hear purists complain to this day about this rule)

American Football (I am trying to make sure that people from other countries understand and do not get confused)

  • Pass interference rules (these have changed multiple times in the last 30 to 40 years)
  • The forward pass to begin with used to be outlawed
  • Helmets with face masks (they used to play with just a leather skull cap)

Basketball

  • The three point shot
  • man to man or zone (zone used to be outlawed in the NBA)

The point is that things change and the players adapt or quit playing.  I have one rule in all the games I play.  Are the rules the same for everyone?  When I play baseball/softball, if they call a strike or a ball on me is it the same for the rest of my team and the other team.  If the answer is yes, then I have nothing to complain about.  If I foul someone in Basketball, when someone on the other team does the same thing, do they get called for a foul?  If the answer is yes, then I have nothing to complain about.

Yes this update changed the commander skills and we have to get used to it.  Some ships have been negatively impacted.  Others may have been helped.  We just need to learn how to play with the new rules.  Some of you state that you are going to quit the game.  That is your choice and I wish you well in whatever you decide to do.

Now before they say it (they will anyway), the changes are always to try and help improve the game.  Not everyone agrees though that the game is improved. That is everyone's right to disagree.  I am certain that someone will not like what I am putting in here.  That is also their right.  I respect everyone's right to have their own opinion.  I may not agree with it and that is my right.

My last point before I sign out.  I am a Kansas City Chiefs fan.  Back in the 1980s they had a cornerback tandem in Albert Lewis and Kevin Ross.  If you look at some rankings of the best cornerback tandems in history, they are usually listed in the top ten somewhere.  Albert Lewis would probably be able to play in todays game.  Kevin Ross was a mauler.  He did everything to disrupt the route of the wide receiver.  In today's game he would have a lot of problems with pass interference penalties and many teams would probably not give him a job in todays game because of it.  The game has changed in the 30 to 40 years when he was an all pro.  If you want to go back further in history there was a player named Night Train Lane who was also a cornerback.  They actually made rules specifically to prevent him from being as dominant as he was.  In todays American Football game they want high scoring exciting games.  That was not always the case.  I will repeat myself.  Things change in every game.

I look forward to seeing you in the game and happy sailing to all of you.  If you choose to quit the game because of the changes, I wish you the best in whatever pursuits you have.

C130 signing out

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First of all, I applaud you for the polite and positive way you developed your thoughts.

Change happens everwhere and it's something that we all have to adapt to. However, here's the way the commander skill rework is negative for us, the players/customers. I won't delve into balance changes as these are bound to change, though passiveness is at an all time high.

My issue lies in how the grinding goalposts are moved yet again in the name of "build diversity" while in truth it's a means to milk the playerbase yet again. Seeking profit isn't a bad thing, but you can do it in a more consumer friendly manner, even in a free to play title. Right now in order to get a build approaching what you used to have, which funnily enough is often still the most efficient, you need 21 points instead of 19, or to be more precise 1.2 million CXP. The system of paying doubloons to get ECXP back, while good in paper, is just bad and the option to sell for credits for 25% is laughable.

Meanwhile, things that the community has been asking for a while, such as new maps, Scenarios, new game modes, quality of life improvements to name a few are completely ignored. It's the year of our Lord 2021 and there's no shopping cart. I don't know how much longer I can fire up the game and say to myself "this is fun"....

Edited by warheart1992
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39 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

First of all, I applaud you for the polite and positive way you developed your thoughts.

Change happens everwhere and it's something that we all have to adapt to. However, the way the commander skill rework is negative for us, the players/customers. I won't delve into balance changes as these are bound to change, though passiveness is at an all time high.

My issue lies in how the grinding goalposts are moved yet again in the name of "build diversity" while in truth it's a means to milk the playerbase yet again. Seeking profit isn't a bad thing, but you can do it in a more consumer friendly manner, even in a free to play title. Right now in order to get a build approaching what you used to have, which funnily enough is often still the most efficient, you need 21 points instead of 19, or to be more precise 1.2 million CXP. The system of paying doubloons to get ECXP back, while good in paper, is just bad and the option to sell for credits for 25% is laughable.

Meanwhile, things that the community has been asking for a while, such as new maps, Scenarios, new game modes, quality of life improvements to name a few are completely ignored. It's the year of our Lord 2021 and there's no shopping cart. I don't know how much longer I can fire up the game and say to myself "this is fun"....

well said

 

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fix your title, Is not "changes happen" but "craphappen" because that is pretty much what this rework is all about.

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1 hour ago, Hercules_C130 said:

but I will give you examples in very popular games:

Chess. 

From Wikipedia:

Quote

 

During the 15th century the queen's move took its modern form as a combination of the move of the rook and the current move of the bishop.[13] Starting from Spain, this new version – called "queen's chess" (in Italian, scacchi della donna), or pejoratively "madwoman's chess" (scacchi alla rabiosa) – spread throughout Europe rapidly, partly due to the advent of the printing press and the popularity of new books on chess.[14] The new rules faced a backlash in some quarters, ranging from anxiety over a powerful female warrior figure to frank abuse against women in general.[15]

At various times, the ability of pawns to be queened was restricted while the original queen was still on the board, so as not to cause scandal by providing the king with more than one queen. An early 12th-century Latin poem refers to a queened pawn as a ferzia, as opposed to the original queen or regina, to account for this.[16]

When the queen was attacked, it was customary to warn the opponent by announcing "gardez la reine" or simply "gardez", similar to the announcement of "check". Some published rules even required this announcement before the queen could be legally captured. This custom was largely abandoned in the 19th century.[17]

In Russia for a long time the queen could also move like a knight; some players disapproved of this ability to "gallop like the horse" (knight).[18][19] The book A History of Chess by H.J.R. Murray, p. 384, says that William Coxe who was in Russia in 1772 saw chess played with the queen also moving like a knight. Such an augmented queen piece is now known as the fairy chess piece amazon.

 

"Queen is OP!" they cried, and Russian Queen was once even more OP! :Smile_trollface:

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2 hours ago, Hercules_C130 said:

The point is that things change and the players adapt or quit playing.

Was waiting for it: Adapt or leave. 

I stopped reading at that point. 

The changes to games that you site as examples were improvements to said games. What if basketball changed the rules to where every shot had to be taken from the 3 point line and the guards had to run in from the sidelines? I'm sure a few would still play but many more would quit.

Meanwhile, the fans would be mad as Hornets and wondering why the NBA willingly chose to ruin their game. Sounds alot like this forum currently. 

Edited by OuijaApologist
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2 hours ago, Hercules_C130 said:

To all:

There have been a lot of posts complaining about the commander changes.  I do not know how many that I have seen, but it is definitely higher than 10.  I do not know how many times that I have heard the saying: "The only constant is change".  I do not know who to cite, but I am certain someone will let me know.  The thing is that change happens in every game.  Many of you may not remember some of these, but I will give you examples in very popular games:

Baseball

  • Lowering the height of the mound to help hitters
  • The designated hitter in the American League (You can still hear purists complain to this day about this rule)

American Football (I am trying to make sure that people from other countries understand and do not get confused)

  • Pass interference rules (these have changed multiple times in the last 30 to 40 years)
  • The forward pass to begin with used to be outlawed
  • Helmets with face masks (they used to play with just a leather skull cap)

Basketball

  • The three point shot
  • man to man or zone (zone used to be outlawed in the NBA)

The point is that things change and the players adapt or quit playing.  I have one rule in all the games I play.  Are the rules the same for everyone?  When I play baseball/softball, if they call a strike or a ball on me is it the same for the rest of my team and the other team.  If the answer is yes, then I have nothing to complain about.  If I foul someone in Basketball, when someone on the other team does the same thing, do they get called for a foul?  If the answer is yes, then I have nothing to complain about.

Yes this update changed the commander skills and we have to get used to it.  Some ships have been negatively impacted.  Others may have been helped.  We just need to learn how to play with the new rules.  Some of you state that you are going to quit the game.  That is your choice and I wish you well in whatever you decide to do.

Now before they say it (they will anyway), the changes are always to try and help improve the game.  Not everyone agrees though that the game is improved. That is everyone's right to disagree.  I am certain that someone will not like what I am putting in here.  That is also their right.  I respect everyone's right to have their own opinion.  I may not agree with it and that is my right.

My last point before I sign out.  I am a Kansas City Chiefs fan.  Back in the 1980s they had a cornerback tandem in Albert Lewis and Kevin Ross.  If you look at some rankings of the best cornerback tandems in history, they are usually listed in the top ten somewhere.  Albert Lewis would probably be able to play in todays game.  Kevin Ross was a mauler.  He did everything to disrupt the route of the wide receiver.  In today's game he would have a lot of problems with pass interference penalties and many teams would probably not give him a job in todays game because of it.  The game has changed in the 30 to 40 years when he was an all pro.  If you want to go back further in history there was a player named Night Train Lane who was also a cornerback.  They actually made rules specifically to prevent him from being as dominant as he was.  In todays American Football game they want high scoring exciting games.  That was not always the case.  I will repeat myself.  Things change in every game.

I look forward to seeing you in the game and happy sailing to all of you.  If you choose to quit the game because of the changes, I wish you the best in whatever pursuits you have.

C130 signing out

1. Changes in games are intentional, not random acts of Fate. The response should also be intentional, not just passive resignation.

2. Not all change is good, either in the subjective or objective realms.

3. Not all change is irrevocable. Resistance is not always futile. Changes to changes happen all the time.

4. Our options here are not binary. In my case, I long ago responded to Lesta's penchant for a$$hattery by playing 100% for free in PvE. It's still fun for me and flips WG the bird at the same time.

5. Thank you for a thoughtful and well-written post. +1 for literacy.

5. The DH rule still sucks. :Smile_smile:

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Some changes are for the better, others for the worse.

WG seems to prefer bad changes only.

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2 hours ago, warheart1992 said:

First of all, I applaud you for the polite and positive way you developed your thoughts.

Change happens everwhere and it's something that we all have to adapt to. However, here's the way the commander skill rework is negative for us, the players/customers. I won't delve into balance changes as these are bound to change, though passiveness is at an all time high.

My issue lies in how the grinding goalposts are moved yet again in the name of "build diversity" while in truth it's a means to milk the playerbase yet again. Seeking profit isn't a bad thing, but you can do it in a more consumer friendly manner, even in a free to play title. Right now in order to get a build approaching what you used to have, which funnily enough is often still the most efficient, you need 21 points instead of 19, or to be more precise 1.2 million CXP. The system of paying doubloons to get ECXP back, while good in paper, is just bad and the option to sell for credits for 25% is laughable.

Meanwhile, things that the community has been asking for a while, such as new maps, Scenarios, new game modes, quality of life improvements to name a few are completely ignored. It's the year of our Lord 2021 and there's no shopping cart. I don't know how much longer I can fire up the game and say to myself "this is fun"....

can't agree more. scenarios use to be fun but all they have done is crap on them

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2 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Chess. 

From Wikipedia:

"Queen is OP!" they cried, and Russian Queen was once even more OP! :Smile_trollface:

Yyyyeeesssssss, but, the time span between most rules changes in chess can be measured in centuries, with no real need to use a decimal point.

Or was that the point we’re supposed to get?

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4 hours ago, Hercules_C130 said:

To all:

There have been a lot of posts complaining about the commander changes.  I do not know how many that I have seen, but it is definitely higher than 10.  I do not know how many times that I have heard the saying: "The only constant is change".  I do not know who to cite, but I am certain someone will let me know.  The thing is that change happens in every game.  Many of you may not remember some of these, but I will give you examples in very popular games:

Baseball

  • Lowering the height of the mound to help hitters
  • The designated hitter in the American League (You can still hear purists complain to this day about this rule)

American Football (I am trying to make sure that people from other countries understand and do not get confused)

  • Pass interference rules (these have changed multiple times in the last 30 to 40 years)
  • The forward pass to begin with used to be outlawed
  • Helmets with face masks (they used to play with just a leather skull cap)

Basketball

  • The three point shot
  • man to man or zone (zone used to be outlawed in the NBA)

The point is that things change and the players adapt or quit playing.  I have one rule in all the games I play.  Are the rules the same for everyone?  When I play baseball/softball, if they call a strike or a ball on me is it the same for the rest of my team and the other team.  If the answer is yes, then I have nothing to complain about.  If I foul someone in Basketball, when someone on the other team does the same thing, do they get called for a foul?  If the answer is yes, then I have nothing to complain about.

Yes this update changed the commander skills and we have to get used to it.  Some ships have been negatively impacted.  Others may have been helped.  We just need to learn how to play with the new rules.  Some of you state that you are going to quit the game.  That is your choice and I wish you well in whatever you decide to do.

Now before they say it (they will anyway), the changes are always to try and help improve the game.  Not everyone agrees though that the game is improved. That is everyone's right to disagree.  I am certain that someone will not like what I am putting in here.  That is also their right.  I respect everyone's right to have their own opinion.  I may not agree with it and that is my right.

My last point before I sign out.  I am a Kansas City Chiefs fan.  Back in the 1980s they had a cornerback tandem in Albert Lewis and Kevin Ross.  If you look at some rankings of the best cornerback tandems in history, they are usually listed in the top ten somewhere.  Albert Lewis would probably be able to play in todays game.  Kevin Ross was a mauler.  He did everything to disrupt the route of the wide receiver.  In today's game he would have a lot of problems with pass interference penalties and many teams would probably not give him a job in todays game because of it.  The game has changed in the 30 to 40 years when he was an all pro.  If you want to go back further in history there was a player named Night Train Lane who was also a cornerback.  They actually made rules specifically to prevent him from being as dominant as he was.  In todays American Football game they want high scoring exciting games.  That was not always the case.  I will repeat myself.  Things change in every game.

I look forward to seeing you in the game and happy sailing to all of you.  If you choose to quit the game because of the changes, I wish you the best in whatever pursuits you have.

C130 signing out

Thank you for this! I have been saying this (though not as eloquently) for some time with World of Warships specifically. Because parts of this community have always been pitchforks and torches with almost ANY and all major changes. And the players of the game need to learn to adapt and grow with the game. Any long term game will have major changes and growth like this. And it is normal.

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21 minutes ago, MannyD_of_The_Sea said:

Or was that the point we’re supposed to get?

It was a major change when it happened, with all sorts of hue and cry... but chess is still here, being played by millions.

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2 hours ago, T4rgetDown said:

Some changes are for the better, others for the worse.

WG seems to prefer bad changes only.

More like people don't mention the good ones

 

Won't see us getting 5 different threads a day saying the commander interface is much better then it used to be.  Cause people don't start threads about good things they like - they only start them about things they dislike.  Nature of  internet forums.

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8 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

It was a major change when it happened, with all sorts of hue and cry... but chess is still here, being played by millions.

But you’re presenting the counter argument in using chess as an example:

The last rules changes to the game* occurred over 130 years ago. By modern standards, the game has thus become “stale;” yet, as you say, here it is, still being played by millions.

*Meaning, the game as played on the board. This entirely excludes the shenanigans of top-level tournament management, Candidates’ matches and Championship match negotiations.

 

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Change is a constant, but not all changes are positive, or endure.

Speaking of sports, whatever happened to the changes Fox made to how fans at home viewed hockey games?

Does anyone miss the highlighted area around the puck, or the red and blue trails from shots and hard passes?

 

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5 hours ago, Hercules_C130 said:

snip

Change sometimes is scary, change sometimes is bad but change happens invariably at some point or another.

Thank you for remaining positive and sharing your perspective, see you around H.

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19 minutes ago, Anonymous50 said:

More like people don't mention the good ones

 

Won't see us getting 5 different threads a day saying the commander interface is much better then it used to be.  Cause people don't start threads about good things they like - they only start them about things they dislike.  Nature of  internet forums.

Well, I don't exactly think the interface is that much better and training the commander for more types is only really useful for people who has lots of premiums of different types of the same nation. So, pardon me if I don't think these changes that I don't find really useful or good make up for all the trash that doesn affect me.

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25 minutes ago, Anonymous50 said:

Won't see us getting 5 different threads a day saying the commander interface is much better then it used to be...

Maybe because the interface is not universally “better.”

There’s no need to hide the ECXP pool amount such that you have to click the “add skills” button (the tiny “+”) to see it now.

Making the progress bar on the current skill point yellow, actually diminished it’s visibility.

The “recall commander” feature is nice, but the whole multi-profile approach screams out for a notes section for each captain, to identify what ships he is being tailored for.

So, two things taken away or diminished, and one obvious, aching need the new system imposes is not addressed; these cut down on the impression of “much better.”

Edited by MannyD_of_The_Sea
Tighter writing

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Just now, MannyD_of_The_Sea said:

There’s no need to hide the ECXP pool amount such that you have to click the “add skills” button (the tiny “+”) to see it now.

Just click on the captain in the port and it will be in the top right hand corner of the screen.

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3 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Just click on the captain in the port and it will be in the top right hand corner of the screen.

Still makes it neither necessary nor better to remove it from the captain management screen.

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5 hours ago, Hercules_C130 said:

  The thing is that change happens in every game.

Yes. I for one was looking forward to a new skill tree coming .  I also read quite a few posts and talked to some people who were quite optimistic of a skill rework. 

The issue here is not that the game changed.  The issue is the form of the change.   Increasing costs and decreasing effectiveness across the majority of builds.  

 

 Now you go on to name some changes that were done over the course of decades in sports.  I don't see how those rather small changes in those sports over a long period (like mount height in baseball) compare to how the entire captain economy changed in WoWs. WG increased build costs for full captains out of proportion to how captain skills progressed before  the rework.  WG increased the cost of training captains to new ships.  While increasing basically all costs on free ships they discounted the costs for moving captains between premiums. 

 

I think you are failing to recognize that a few small changes over long duration are different from large scale changes all rolled into one sudden package  that had near zero input from the people participating in the game. 

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32 minutes ago, Anonymous50 said:

More like people don't mention the good ones

 

Won't see us getting 5 different threads a day saying the commander interface is much better then it used to be.  Cause people don't start threads about good things they like - they only start them about things they dislike.  Nature of  internet forums.

Or maybe UI improvements simply don't measure up when compared to the scale of the problems introduced.

The introduction of the dockyard and all its prettyness was also overshadowed by the nature of the giant cash grab that it was. 

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34 minutes ago, T4rgetDown said:

Well, I don't exactly think the interface is that much better ..

Others disagree and have said so.

Point is the idea that WG only does garbage is false.


I get people don't like certain things & changes - I'm not a fan of the cruiser changes as I think the game balance meta has been significantly put off by that.


But less hyperbole about WG incompetency would help people get those opinions about issues across.  We are not all drunk in a bar here - as much as many of us would prefer that  - shooting the breeze about whatever comes to mind.    Talking in hyperbole may help with the venting of emotions but it undercuts arguments at the same time. 

Edited by Anonymous50
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1 hour ago, Anonymous50 said:

More like people don't mention the good ones

 

Won't see us getting 5 different threads a day saying the commander interface is much better then it used to be.  Cause people don't start threads about good things they like - they only start them about things they dislike.  Nature of  internet forums.

lol, the only time I bother to make yelp reviews is when I had a bad experience.

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