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crazynewt76

Secondary Builds now....

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So after playing with the new Captain skills for a few days, I can say that the secondary builds are now far less efficient.  I am not going to say that they are broken and do not work, because that would indicate that they are not doing what the description says.  They do have -35% dispersion on a priority ship.  And that is that.  It stops there.

That is the issue.  I would rather have all guns firing at one ship with a -60% dispersion at a priority, then have all guns firing at everything in range with only a -35% dispersion at the priority.  All I have now is a bunch of noise and splashes with far fewer hits with secondaries than ever before.  I used to have 100+ hits with the old system, now on a T8+ BB fully secondary specced...  if I reach 50 now, I will be lucky.

Why is this an issue?  Well, because the accuracy of the secondaries made up for the high dispersion of the main guns of the KM BB line.  You actually invested the points, you "bought: (with exp) and paid for the extra accuracy on the secondaries to make up for the "shotgun" effect of the main guns.  This is extremely disappointing that all ships that are actually "advertised" as having better secondaries in the descriptions and like the USS MA as Premium ships that differentiate those ships from others of the same class and tier are now just ships with "longer" secondary ranges.

Longer ranges do not mean anything if they actually have a 30% LESS chance of hitting something (compared to the old tree) if you invested in the current skill trees.  All of these secondary ships are now just skittle shooters ....  Go outside with a bag of skittles, open the bag, take a handful, toss them in the air ...then play WoW and you will see a GREAT resemblance to the secondary builds of the current skill tree.

We actually PAY in skill points for greater accuracy of our secondaries than what we have now.  And the offset or balance?  Your ship only fired its secondaries at ONE SHIP.  In truth..  since the accuracy was cut in half, so should the price in skill points.  It is only fair.

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They have basically wrecked brawling , Bismarck was my go to ship for a fun game, sadly it is all but useless now in everything but t6 to t8 games, any uptier leaves you hiding in the back with no chance to hit anything.

That's my opinion, take it for what it's worth. 

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From my experimentation with Secondary builds on German BBs over the last week with a friend, secondary brawler builds are still a thing you can do.  The secondary guns aren't going to put up nearly the damage numbers they did before, and that is really unfortunate, but they still do provide some decent chip damage and occasionally net me a kill.

That being said, you can't just build them the same way you did before, because the game is different, the meta is different, we know this.  The CQC skill tbh doesn't seem worth taking, it feels like a trap because most of the game you won't actually get to use it.  You're mostly whittling people down from behind islands and setting up opportunities to push with secondaries against all the other people with Deadeye sitting way back.  Positioning and shot placement will mean more than those 4 points in CQC.  Getting improved Secondary range and reduced dispersion on Priority Sec Target I still recommend, but rather than Adrenaline Rush or CQC I feel points are better spent on Module talents, or Fire Prevention especially.  I tend to prefer talents that always help me, not just conditionally on my health or whatever.  Equipment I will tend to balance between main gun and secondary equips, because at the end of the day right now your MGs are going to still be 80% of your damage.

You gotta play more carefully to brawl, and be more opportunistic, but I've definitely still been able to do it and made secondaries useful.  In a game where I do ~70k dmg in a german BB, I expect Secondaries to do about ~15k of that now.

I will say though that I do think they really need to improve the dispersion of secondaries though, or improve the 4 Point skill that reduces dispersion on a Priority Target to like -70%, or 80% even.  If they are an actual Priority and someone has put those points into Secondaries, they shouldn't miss as much as they do now.  It takes a lot of effort to get use out of that skill, players should be better rewarded for it.  Alternatively, have a scaled dispersion reduction.  Make the skill reduce dispersion against other BBs by -50%, against Cruisers by -65%, and against DDs by -80%.  Also take the damn fire chance reduction off IFHE, that was the dumbest of nerfs.

Make Brawling Great Again ;D

Edited by NefariousRaven

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I think that the fact that it is a 4 point skill is the biggest issue.  It is simply not a 4 point skill anymore.  I would say a two ..maybe a three, but I got that skill with my Bismark because she is MADE FOR BRAWLING, like the whole KM BB line.  They have lower caliber Main guns, with high dispersion that was supposed to be balanced out by the range and accuracy of the secondaries.  Now that the secondaries are just firecrackers and skittle spray, what is going to balance out the damage output that the secondaries were supposed to be designed for?

 

Nothing ...  Nothing will be done.  This will be ignored.

 

I honestly feel bad for the MASS ...  people that actually paid $$ for a ship that was on par with the Bismark in secondaries ...now are they getting a refund?  Because now the MASS is just a N. Carolina with slightly longer range secondaries

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17 hours ago, crazynewt76 said:

people that actually paid $$ for a ship that was on par with the Bismark in secondaries

On par? Mass secondaries were by far superior to Bismarck in every way except for raw penetration and a bit of range. They fire faster and are (still) more accurate. Mass with a secondary build, pre-rework, was a truly nightmare opponent for any destroyer to face.

--Helms

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17 hours ago, crazynewt76 said:

I honestly feel bad for the MASS ...  people that actually paid $$ for a ship that was on par with the Bismark in secondaries

I disagree with this statement... I have the MASS and so far my Secondary percentage is at %16... Which is higher then my Torp percentage at %15...

IMO her secondaries are fine... The main guns on the Bismarck, need help compared to those in her tier range... OR I suggest to nerf the BB main guns of other BBs in her tier...

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On 3/13/2021 at 4:53 AM, thehelmsman said:

On par? Mass secondaries were by far superior to Bismarck in every way except for raw penetration and a bit of range. They fire faster and are (still) more accurate. Mass with a secondary build, pre-rework, was a truly nightmare opponent for any destroyer to face.

--Helms

Mass couldn't and can't get 32mm pen even with IFHE, so even though her raw secondary DPM is marginally higher than Bismarck, that isn't the case with effective DPM.    In effective DPM, Bismarck spanks the pants off the secondaries on Mass.  Hell, even Gniessenau does and that's a whole tier lower (plus Gniesse doesn't even need IFHE to pen, like G.Kurf).

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On 3/16/2021 at 3:06 AM, NefariousRaven said:

Mass couldn't and can't get 32mm pen even with IFHE, so even though her raw secondary DPM is marginally higher than Bismarck, that isn't the case with effective DPM.    In effective DPM, Bismarck spanks the pants off the secondaries on Mass.  Hell, even Gniessenau does and that's a whole tier lower (plus Gniesse doesn't even need IFHE to pen, like G.Kurf).

They shredded destroyers and reliably set fires on cruisers and battleships, which was way more important. German secondaries weren't (and aren't) reliable for consistent raw penetration damage vs battleships either, except vs select enemies.

You can certainly make the argument that German secondaries are overall superior in certain situations, and I would agree with you... but the Germans give up a ton in other areas for that.

--Helms

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On 3/16/2021 at 1:06 AM, NefariousRaven said:

Mass couldn't and can't get 32mm pen even with IFHE, so even though her raw secondary DPM is marginally higher than Bismarck, that isn't the case with effective DPM.    In effective DPM, Bismarck spanks the pants off the secondaries on Mass.  Hell, even Gniessenau does and that's a whole tier lower (plus Gniesse doesn't even need IFHE to pen, like G.Kurf).

When she was released you could take a full secondary build Massachusetts and Bismarck into a training room, park them side by side and let the secondaries rip.  Massachusetts would win every time (we did it multiple times testing them). 

Then the IFHE rework nerfed Massachusetts,  then the captain rework nerfed Massachusetts. 

Massachusetts used to have a 30% hit ratio with her secondaries,  now its about 15%.  What WG did to her was criminal. 

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On 3/17/2021 at 9:37 AM, HallaSnackbar said:

When she was released you could take a full secondary build Massachusetts and Bismarck into a training room, park them side by side and let the secondaries rip.  Massachusetts would win every time (we did it multiple times testing them). 

Then the IFHE rework nerfed Massachusetts,  then the captain rework nerfed Massachusetts. 

Massachusetts used to have a 30% hit ratio with her secondaries,  now its about 15%.  What WG did to her was criminal. 

In fairness, what WG did to all secondary builds at this point is criminal :(

Edit: I should add that I don't think secondary builds are dead, they are just way less effective and don't feel as powerful when being used.  I run a full secondary Bismarck and 1/3 of it's damage or more sometimes is often secondaries still.  Even if the build is hot garbage, I refuse to stop playing it, I love secondary build >.<

Edited by NefariousRaven
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