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Shomaruki

Win or Lose, CVs never Win

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CVS are forever in a Limbo place. But it's not because they are over powered or under powered, I feel like most of the issues with CVS are from the computer screen to chair. (I'll give points to anyone who understands that reference)

Example here, Our biggest weakness to planes are cruisers (They were suppose to be designed to defend against our planes) And Close Range and fast targets. (Hello DDs that can actually ninja how are you?).For MANY games the top tier complaints are

"GG CV didn't provide cover fire" ( 9 out 10 it was a single ship who went one direct on his own. 

"Over Powered Planes fcking CV." (Says the Commander that literally turned directly into my planes and ate 4 torp and I turned around and gave him another 4.)

Then you have the DD Commanders who get angry because I spotted them and forget to turn off their turrets and I manage to poke them with a few missiles with guestimation. They in result panic and leave their smoke and get boinked by a teammate. I'm then called a hacker because I was able to hit him/her through the smoke. 

 

The Biggest Flaws with World of Warships is that people continue to see this game like it's a FPS game. In theory yes, one person COULD win it all without teammates if they were good enough with the right gun and placement. In this game I think most people forget the main fundamental is EVERY Ship has a role. As CV Commander, I know as much as I want to sink Four Ships every game that's not going to happen and if I try and use all my time trying to do so I would burn through too many planes. In move cases I'm starting the match preventing the other time from early capture of a point, flagging a dd that's going on direction, and spotting the other ships so my battles can try and get some long range shots off.  I get some commanders going "Sorry for KS" if they sink something my torps were about to hit, I personally going "Na man that was a team battle play it to win it." 

As a CV you don't really win anymore, RTS times yes I was able to provide air support and offensive support, AND scouting. I can't do all of that at once anymore. That and the accountability for other ships are able to point the fingers at CV because a DD managed to sneak them and or they got torp by planes, EVEN IF I were to place Defensive Fighters over a ship, and I swear anyone can disagree now but I promise you every CV commander can agree to this. The MOMENT you place fighters over someone the first thing they do is Sail outside of their coverage zone. It never fails, Then I get looked like like "wth man why you didn't help" 

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Usually when players hit cv torps its because the other option is to turn broadside to enemies. The issue many find with carriers more than anything is that you're basically left hoping the AI controlling anti air succeeds in limiting damage. The main "counterplay" we are told to use by cv mains is clumping together, which often results in blobs in spawn or lemmingtrains. One of the best parts of the game is using terrain and positioning to create crossfires and flanking moves, but none of that is possible because you can never go off alone or in a group of only 2-3 without being incredibly vulnerable. The real core issue is there isn't a good solution of what you can do to try and mitigate the cvs effects on you without playing a stagnant clumped game of shooting angled targets 

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42 minutes ago, Kebobs22 said:

Usually when players hit cv torps its because the other option is to turn broadside to enemies. The issue many find with carriers more than anything is that you're basically left hoping the AI controlling anti air succeeds in limiting damage. The main "counterplay" we are told to use by cv mains is clumping together, which often results in blobs in spawn or lemmingtrains. One of the best parts of the game is using terrain and positioning to create crossfires and flanking moves, but none of that is possible because you can never go off alone or in a group of only 2-3 without being incredibly vulnerable. The real core issue is there isn't a good solution of what you can do to try and mitigate the cvs effects on you without playing a stagnant clumped game of shooting angled targets 

I agree with you, but to say there is no C.Play against them or saying they are OP without valid reasons is what ticks me. Example DDs are high in concealment, even with my planes the moment they are spot a DD the first go around my planes are always about to zip passed them. (usually just before I can prep for a missile run). DDs I play against normally go in a straight line towards a capture zone and get found first. Normally I hover them because personally to me the are the most threat. (I want them dead first imo.) 

 

CVs are suppose to be annoying, and not all ships were designed to fight against planes. That's just norm.

 

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+1. CV play is harder than many players know/care to understand. <10 fps is a death sentence. My bombers are really frustrating to play with. When will I get the ranger?

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3 hours ago, Kebobs22 said:

Usually when players hit cv torps its because the other option is to turn broadside to enemies. The issue many find with carriers more than anything is that you're basically left hoping the AI controlling anti air succeeds in limiting damage. The main "counterplay" we are told to use by cv mains is clumping together, which often results in blobs in spawn or lemming trains. One of the best parts of the game is using terrain and positioning to create crossfires and flanking moves, but none of that is possible because you can never go off alone or in a group of only 2-3 without being incredibly vulnerable. The real core issue is there isn't a good solution of what you can do to try and mitigate the cvs effects on you without playing a stagnant clumped game of shooting angled targets 

Best counter play: Well, if people would just DO IT rather than complaining about it, it might make a difference.  Furthermore, it doesn't require more than 2-3 ships to accomplish.  You don't need blobs of 6 or more ships to have decent AA.  Just get 2-3 ships working together, sitting in each other's long AA  ranges, so that you have flak over those team mates in the group, and you should be in a better situation.  Also be ready to control your AA sectors in a timely manner.

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if you did good, enemy team report you, if you don't, your team do, you can't literally or hardly have karma if you're main CV

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20 hours ago, Shomaruki said:

CVS are forever in a Limbo place. But it's not because they are over powered or under powered...

 

Wrong.  CVs have always been OP in terms of dictating game outcome.  However, CV players whine about lack of damage or how many of their planes get shot down by AA on attack runs, thinking that's what matters most to win.  It's not.  Spotting (e.g. DDs to kill and exposing the enemy plan minutes into the game) is the greatest asset a CV brings to the game.   If a CV simply spots the map early, harassers caps in the first 10 minutes, and finds DDs for their team to kill early and often, that team wins almost every single time.  The CV player likely won't finish top of team, and may not get a lot of damage, but the team will win.  CV players, however, are greedy for damage like all other players in this game, so most CV players make torp/rocket/bomb runs on easy target ships to farm damage as early as possible instead.  WOW's meta consistently rewards individual greed over team play.  And, so increasing CV damage and plane resilience only made the degree to which CVs dictate game outcome even worse because now CVs can do both (i.e. spot and damage) effectively if they chose.  CVs have always dictated the game outcome for the 22 others players.  It's far more about spotting than damage.  CVs are a broken meta and it can't be fixed with CVs in the game.  But, blah, blah, blah.  It's obvious WOW does not care about making a better game.  WOW cares about making a more profitable game.  And, changing the meta makes more money because enough players consistently pay to adapt.  Rinse.  Repeat.

Edited by nhf
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6 hours ago, nhf said:

Wrong.  CVs have always been OP in terms of dictating game outcome.  However, CV players whine about lack of damage or how many of their planes get shot down by AA on attack runs, thinking that's what matters most to win.  It's not.  Spotting (e.g. DDs to kill and exposing the enemy plan minutes into the game) is the greatest asset a CV brings to the game.   If a CV simply spots the map early, harassers caps in the first 10 minutes, and finds DDs for their team to kill early and often, that team wins almost every single time.  The CV player likely won't finish top of team, and may not get a lot of damage, but the team will win.  CV players, however, are greedy for damage like all other players in this game, so most CV players make torp/rocket/bomb runs on easy target ships to farm damage as early as possible instead.  WOW's meta consistently rewards individual greed over team play.  And, so increasing CV damage and plane resilience only made the degree to which CVs dictate game outcome even worse because now CVs can do both (i.e. spot and damage) effectively if they chose.  CVs have always dictated the game outcome for the 22 others players.  It's far more about spotting than damage.  CVs are a broken meta and it can't be fixed with CVs in the game.  But, blah, blah, blah.  It's obvious WOW does not care about making a better game.  WOW cares about making a more profitable game.  And, changing the meta makes more money because enough players consistently pay to adapt.  Rinse.  Repeat.

I can spot DDS at the start of a map all game, but that doesn't mean anything because even IF I did three perfect missile runs it wouldn't sink it. Will it annoy the piss out of them? Yes. As as CV player, I do enjoy torping ships, it's just a fun thing to do. However with that being said, I know what wins the game is points. In fact the first thing I do try and spot everything, but I can't FORCE my teammates to shoot at certain targets just as I can't force my teammates to capture points. 

 

I usually do even do much attacking until my teammate gets involved because most players are tunnel vision on my teammates to ignore the planes. IF you play a game without CVS, people will jump down to the next complaint, They didn't see the DD that just sent about 12 torpedoes into their side.  There is nothing you can do to make people happy about CVs. 

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On 1/25/2021 at 3:23 PM, Refer27 said:

if you did good, enemy team report you, if you don't, your team do, you can't literally or hardly have karma if you're main CV

The Life of a CV Player:

Get top 3 in points, most kills, 160k dmg, maximize spotting and fighter coverage, but still lose?  Get reported by both teams for not providing enough support to your teammates spamming calls from the other side of the map as they lemming into a cap to their death.

Win?  It wasn't any of your efforts.  Lose?  It's entirely your fault, no one else is responsible.  There is no winning as a CV player, even when you win.  What even is karma?

15 hours ago, nhf said:

Wrong.  CVs have always been OP in terms of dictating game outcome.  However, CV players whine about lack of damage or how many of their planes get shot down by AA on attack runs, thinking that's what matters most to win.  It's not.  Spotting (e.g. DDs to kill and exposing the enemy plan minutes into the game) is the greatest asset a CV brings to the game. 

You say this, but when you play CVs and look at post game stats and realize that spotting rarely results in teammates actually causing damage to things you've spotted, you'll quickly realize it really isn't their greatest asset.  Spotting is a DDs greatest asset, and that's why DDs are always the first thing people try to kill.  A CVs greatest asset is being able to single out weakened targets and finish them off so less guns are pointed at your teammates and also to force enemies to turn away from shelling your friends or alternatively turning into exposing their broadside.  Your greatest asset is essentially forcing poor plays.  If you waste time trying to spot DDs you're going to perform quite poorly and be of not very much help to your team.  To maximize your DPM you need planes going out constantly, so your spotting will be.... well, very spotty outside the start of the game where you have to spend more effort avoiding AA and fly around a lot.  All the top rated CV players I've seen giving advice is generally, "ignore your teammates and drop fighters if on route to targets (don't go out of your way to cover them), forget wasting time trying to locate elusive DDs, manage your Squadron numbers correctly with predrops and fly straight to targets to get as much DPM going as possible."

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On 1/26/2021 at 5:09 PM, NefariousRaven said:

The Life of a CV Player:

Get top 3 in points, most kills, 160k dmg, maximize spotting and fighter coverage, but still lose?  Get reported by both teams for not providing enough support to your teammates spamming calls from the other side of the map as they lemming into a cap to their death.

Win?  It wasn't any of your efforts.  Lose?  It's entirely your fault, no one else is responsible.  There is no winning as a CV player, even when you win.  What even is karma?

You say this, but when you play CVs and look at post game stats and realize that spotting rarely results in teammates actually causing damage to things you've spotted, you'll quickly realize it really isn't their greatest asset.  Spotting is a DDs greatest asset, and that's why DDs are always the first thing people try to kill.  A CVs greatest asset is being able to single out weakened targets and finish them off so less guns are pointed at your teammates and also to force enemies to turn away from shelling your friends or alternatively turning into exposing their broadside.  Your greatest asset is essentially forcing poor plays.  If you waste time trying to spot DDs you're going to perform quite poorly and be of not very much help to your team.  To maximize your DPM you need planes going out constantly, so your spotting will be.... well, very spotty outside the start of the game where you have to spend more effort avoiding AA and fly around a lot.  All the top rated CV players I've seen giving advice is generally, "ignore your teammates and drop fighters if on route to targets (don't go out of your way to cover them), forget wasting time trying to locate elusive DDs, manage your Squadron numbers correctly with predrops and fly straight to targets to get as much DPM going as possible."

They aren't here to argue a point. They are here to argue, period. 

Recently, I had some idiot in a CL that died 3 mins into the game, and for the rest of the game, spammed CV hate/instructions, because I didn't drop everything to run fighters over to a CL that YOLOed. It just went on and on. I muted them eventually.  After that game, I checked their stats. They had a total of 11 games in CVs. Eleven. Games. 

The other problem is the amazing players. Most, not all, but most of them can't see what it's like for a majority of the players playing, since they have a vast sum of knowledge and it's used without conscious thought. 90%+ of the playerbase doesn't see what these unicums see when they look at the board. Things are obvious to experts, but still unknown to people with 100 CV games out of 1000 total games played. Incomparison, the non-unicums also usually lack the skills to land full torp salvos, commonly getting 1-3 hits out of 4-6 torps, are inconsistent with bombers and rockets to them are scouting and loliboat hunting only.

I  have the same issue in my field, IRL. I'm an expert IRL and sometimes I fail to realize the other side of the conversation doesn't have the same background/knowledgebase that I have and that the point of discussion wasn't obvious to them, like it is for me. 

To be perfectly clear, I think CVs *CAN* be OP, or wreck a team, but it's only the really good or really bad CV players. Most of the time, CV players are within the mean, which means they contribute to a battle, about like they would with a CL, but are not changing the flow of things very much. This is in Randoms. Even I won't argue CVs in Small Team Games. They're just stupid, imo. 

 

 

Edited by SonicAnatidae
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On 1/30/2021 at 11:12 AM, SonicAnatidae said:

To be perfectly clear, I think CVs *CAN* be OP, or wreck a team, but it's only the really good or really bad CV players. Most of the time, CV players are within the mean, which means they contribute to a battle, about like they would with a CL, but are not changing the flow of things very much.

Exactly this.  The real question is do the really good players manage to carry any harder in CVs than any other ship type?  I would imagine that they don't, in fact from WG statistics I've seen over the last few months it seems that the really good players carry far better in other ship types than CVs.  CVs, statistically, are not in any capacity OP across the overall playerbase.  The outliers to this are the same outliers for any other ship type, in that good players are good and will wreck face in whatever boat they are in (assuming equal amounts of expertise with them all).

Whereas with the old RTS CV gameplay, I remember quite distinctly both from anecdotal experience and statistics from WG, a really good RTS CV player absolutely could control the tide of the game.  They had an outsized influence on match outcome.  This does not generally seem to be the case anymore, though I will say to your point about smaller non-Random Battle games, the impact of CVs increases, though in my experience I still don't find it to be so bad that it dwarfs the performance of the rest of the team.

Edited by NefariousRaven
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The debate rages on about CV's. Personally I found myself drawn to them. I always had an interest in WW2 naval action, and CV's were the queen of the seas in WW2. I started playing a WW2 online naval action game with Steel Ocean, years ago. I was immediately desperate to drive a CV, and ground my way into them as soon as I could. In SO, like IRL, CV's were dominant, like they were in WW2. CV's flew multiple flights, including fighters, and could attack and sink almost any ship on the board (dd's were tough...). The main jobs of the CV were to spot, find and sink the opposing team's CV, harass and sink whatever else they could on the way, and provide combat air patrol. Alas SO is no more.

In WOWs CV's are, IMO, grossly underpowered. My main job is to spy and scavenge. My torps are pitiful. If I sink a capital ship it's because someone else weakened it for me. But I'm addicted to CV's, so until/unless someone puts out a more realistic game with CV's, I'll continue to play it.

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On 2/7/2021 at 3:24 PM, SOTMHK_55 said:

In WOWs CV's are, IMO, grossly underpowered. My main job is to spy and scavenge. My torps are pitiful. If I sink a capital ship it's because someone else weakened it for me. But I'm addicted to CV's, so until/unless someone puts out a more realistic game with CV's, I'll continue to play it.

I wouldn't say they are grossly underpowered necessarily.  They are the 2nd highest average dmg ship below BBs, that being said average CV winrate for every CV that isn't FDR is pretty damn horrible right now, suggesting they don't have an outsized positive impact on the game.  Surviving DDs mean more than surviving CVs to a team, but CVs still can matter end game when spotting becomes sparse.  I think if CVs got like a 10-20% dmg bump (their DPM is atrocious and doesn't actually threaten people into making mistakes even if overall their average damage is 2nd highest) they'd be a bit more in line with what they should be.  The spotting nerfs hurt them as well, and while I don't want them necessarily completely reverted to the previous state, a tiny bump in spotting range would be nice as well.  Kaga needs to have her plane's tiers/health bumped up as well if CVs are to remain at these low damage numbers.

Edited by NefariousRaven

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On 2/17/2021 at 4:13 PM, NefariousRaven said:

I wouldn't say they are grossly underpowered necessarily.  They are the 2nd highest average dmg ship below BBs, that being said average CV winrate for every CV that isn't FDR is pretty damn horrible right now, suggesting they don't have an outsized positive impact on the game.  Surviving DDs mean more than surviving CVs to a team, but CVs still can matter end game when spotting becomes sparse.  I think if CVs got like a 10-20% dmg bump (their DPM is atrocious and doesn't actually threaten people into making mistakes even if overall their average damage is 2nd highest) they'd be a bit more in line with what they should be.  The spotting nerfs hurt them as well, and while I don't want them necessarily completely reverted to the previous state, a tiny bump in spotting range would be nice as well.  Kaga needs to have her plane's tiers/health bumped up as well if CVs are to remain at these low damage numbers.

Nah CV's are fine where they are.  Winrate is not a valid metric for comparing ship classes due to mirroring, which is especially true for CVs since they are always exactly mirrored, while other classes sometimes aren't.  As for damage being second is not bad and the ability to apply it at the decisive moment means it is very powerful even if they aren't top damage.

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