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_Thanagor_

Dead Eye by itself is a well-designed skill

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Combined with some other skills, upgrades and in the right ships, you can build them for an efficient sniper play style. I don't think it's a bad thing. The problem is the new skill system doesn't give a similar strength to builds that specialize for pushing/brawling. In fact, with 21 points captain, the only build that has good synergy is the sniper build. 

What I would like to see, is not a nerf to Dead Eye, but a buff to skills that improves other builds. Doing so will create more interesting and dynamic game play. 

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Deadeye still needs to be nerfed, probably from 10% to 5%.   

If you can make every ship super accurate from max range, there is no reason to build do anything else, you could make secondaries hit 100% of the time and those ships are still useless because they have to get into secondary range to use them, which they cannot do, because the sniper ships obliterate them.

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I too like hitting citadels at 25km, but it doesn't make it a good skill.

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1 minute ago, Zenn3k said:

Deadeye still needs to be nerfed, probably from 10% to 5%.   

If you can make every ship super accurate from max range, there is no reason to build do anything else, you could make secondaries hit 100% of the time and those ships are still useless because they have to get into secondary range to use them, which they cannot do, because the sniper ships obliterate them.

Even 5% might be too strong. The psychological effect it has on players who probably like sitting back anyway is too big. It should be reworked entirely with penalties or removed.

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Reverse the range condition XD. 

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8 minutes ago, EricT2015 said:

I too like hitting citadels at 25km, but it doesn't make it a good skill.

Getting citadels from a long distance has always been possible. Dead Eye only makes it more consistent and less RNG, which I think is a good thing. The problem now is that you just need Dead Eye and Concealment Expert to build a sniper, whereas a full secondary pushing build you would want 4 x tier 4 skills, which isn't even possible.

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11 minutes ago, EricT2015 said:

Even 5% might be too strong. The psychological effect it has on players who probably like sitting back anyway is too big. It should be reworked entirely with penalties or removed.

This. My guess is most players can't tell the difference with the new skill. It's the psychological effect of knowing their accuracy is better at long range that's causing them to sit back.

I also think that in a week the average potato will realize he still can't hit crapfrom the back of the map and the ridiculous camping playstyle we're seeing now will fade. It's a still a bad skill IMO but the effect it is having is absolutely exaggerated right now. Give it a few weeks for the new patch to settle in and my guess is things will be back to normal. Then WG can see if this skill (and all the others) are having the intended effect.

Also, WG obviously has ideas of what they want to accomplish. Some are easy to figure out. But we don't know everything they're trying to do. So it may be that this leads to a game state they're happy with. Of course whether the players are happy with it is another thing, but just because YOU don't like a change doesn't mean WG doesn't.

I do hope they seriously change Deadeye, even if the effect decreases it's still a skill that encourages a terrible playstyle that did not need any buffs.

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21 minutes ago, _Thanagor_ said:

Combined with some other skills, upgrades and in the right ships, you can build them for an efficient sniper play style. I don't think it's a bad thing.

No, its bad thing. Period.

Don't care what you buff....when I can land 7 of 8 shells on another Bow in BB at 22km for 16k....that will never be good for game play.

Cruisers will become nearly extinct at high tiers.  With all the overmatch put into the game in the last year or two armor is meaningless, so open water gun boating will become a thing of the past for most cruisers.  I'd say the ability to punish cruisers caught in the open has at least doubled.

OP, I know you are mainly thinking of other BBs only as you mentioned secondaries being buffed as a balancing factor which does zippo to help cruisers. 

As long as sniper skills like dead eye are in the game,  game play will stagnate, since any aggressive pushing only gets you killed.

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22 minutes ago, _Thanagor_ said:

Combined with some other skills, upgrades and in the right ships, you can build them for an efficient sniper play style. I don't think it's a bad thing. The problem is the new skill system doesn't give a similar strength to builds that specialize for pushing/brawling. In fact, with 21 points captain, the only build that has good synergy is the sniper build. 

What I would like to see, is not a nerf to Dead Eye, but a buff to skills that improves other builds. Doing so will create more interesting and dynamic game play. 

The beauty of the sniper build is that is also cheap, you can be very effective with a 14 pt captain. Totally agree with you, there should be a couple other options for cheap builds as effective as sniper. 

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55 minutes ago, _Thanagor_ said:

Combined with some other skills, upgrades and in the right ships, you can build them for an efficient sniper play style. I don't think it's a bad thing. The problem is the new skill system doesn't give a similar strength to builds that specialize for pushing/brawling. In fact, with 21 points captain, the only build that has good synergy is the sniper build. 

What I would like to see, is not a nerf to Dead Eye, but a buff to skills that improves other builds. Doing so will create more interesting and dynamic game play. 

i agree with you Dynamic game play is good.

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1 hour ago, _Thanagor_ said:

Combined with some other skills, upgrades and in the right ships, you can build them for an efficient sniper play style

Is "efficient sniper play style" something that should be encouraged? Does it tend to make matches more fun?

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1 hour ago, _Thanagor_ said:

Combined with some other skills, upgrades and in the right ships, you can build them for an efficient sniper play style. I don't think it's a bad thing. The problem is the new skill system doesn't give a similar strength to builds that specialize for pushing/brawling. In fact, with 21 points captain, the only build that has good synergy is the sniper build. 

What I would like to see, is not a nerf to Dead Eye, but a buff to skills that improves other builds. Doing so will create more interesting and dynamic game play. 

BRAVO SIR! :Smile_honoring:

Knowing WG will never admit they have made a mistake with adding a skill that promotes a playstyle they apparently did not want.

AND nerfed BIG the move forward and engage playstyle - that they 'apparently' wanted.

 

You have tactfully put forward a positive view of what they have done, in the hope that the secondary build may become viable again. :cap_win:

 

Unfortunately WG does not listen to reasoned attempts; in the past it has taken a toxic, pitch fork, torch wielding, out for blood and no longer spending money mob, to make them change their mind.

Your reasoned approach will be assigned to cabin 101. :Smile_sad:

 

A valiant effort, +1 

Edited by _WaveRider_

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36 minutes ago, vak_ said:

Is "efficient sniper play style" something that should be encouraged? Does it tend to make matches more fun?

No....and this coming from someone who has always enjoyed playing more sniper focused ships (like the Yamato) and taking cross map shots.  There is nothing inherently wrong with using sniping as a tool in certain scenarios, but sniping shouldn't be a core play style on its own and encouraging everyone to run away from each other really isn't good for the game. 

Having a few individual exceptions with specific sniper focused BBs isn't the end of the world and even adds a little needed variety if they're not too oppressive, but adding a skill that encourages every BB to do so crosses a line, especially as it ends up making a lot of them over powered in the process. 

Edited by yashma
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42 minutes ago, vak_ said:

Is "efficient sniper play style" something that should be encouraged? Does it tend to make matches more fun?

Id say so yeah, I find playing the game around range concealment and spotting most fun, up close brawling and knife fighting between capital ships is not my cup of tea.

 

Its a battleship after all, long range fire support is its job and it should well fighting Cruisers not so well vs planes or DDs

Edited by TaxDollarsAtWork

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I'm curious to see if more people will be taking incoming fire alert(1 point skill available for everyone) in this meta and see how things will become. 

I found IFA counter dead eye pretty well. Any time you see an alert you don't know why, just random WASD hack and it's almost a free doge because those dead eye shoots are so accurate and yet take so long before they land. 

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3 hours ago, _Thanagor_ said:

Combined with some other skills, upgrades and in the right ships, you can build them for an efficient sniper play style. I don't think it's a bad thing. The problem is the new skill system doesn't give a similar strength to builds that specialize for pushing/brawling. In fact, with 21 points captain, the only build that has good synergy is the sniper build. 

What I would like to see, is not a nerf to Dead Eye, but a buff to skills that improves other builds. Doing so will create more interesting and dynamic game play. 

You are somewhat right, but the issue goes a bit deeper.

"Deadeye" naturally synergizes well with CE, which was always part of most survival builds (can't take damage if nobody sees you) and some secondary/hybrid builds (need to get into range first, so stealth is good for that).

Now what you would take for survival is mostly "Emergency repair expert", CE and FP. For "deadeye" you will have to give up one, most likely FP or ERE, depending on what heals you have. But you still retain CE and one of the survival skills. With most other builds you don't.

Secondaries? You will probably take ISBA and maybe CQC, if not a few more 3 pointers like LRSBS and IFHE. So a secondary build synergizes not great with any survival builds. You can of course go full survival, but why not make a small compromise and make your ship the best sniper it can be?

In addition, the amount of offensive buffs for cruisers at the cost of concealment make it possible to go after cruisers way further out than before. Angling or the like don't matter with all the overmatch out there. And even if a cruiser pushes up, chances are the Deadeye BB can snipe it from the map. Even gunboat DDs have to keep greater distances with the improved secondary ranges.

I honestly hope that they adjust these skills. My suspicion is however, that the balancing/design department is under the impression that people must like this new skill and the meta, because everyone is adopting it (or at least the majority). This of course neglects the fact that anyone pushing in with this meta has a much harder time, and therefore any sane player will likely try deadeye and see that their results are better with it and stick to it. Whether they enjoy it or not, if you have to grind things you gotta be efficient.

Maybe I'll do the numbers on how effective this thing is in the training room. There is a new replay parser that can extract shell splashes so it should be possible to do a apples-to-apples comparison "Deadeye" vs non-"Deadeye" Thunderer, NC, etc... I hope this skill isn't bugged on top of this.

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Deadeye doesn't need to be nerfed. It needs to go away. 

It is a horribly designed skill. Even its text is incorrect.

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4 hours ago, vak_ said:

Is "efficient sniper play style" something that should be encouraged? Does it tend to make matches more fun?

It's more fun than brawling.  I despise brawling.  That said, I'm not a big fan of the Dead Eye skill for a few reasons.

1. It encourages players to fight at overly extreme ranges, whereas in the past fighting closer to the mid ranges was generally more preferred because it put you in a better position to provide close support to your team.

2. Dead Eye discourages ships that would otherwise be expected to look to close on the enemy from doing so.  

3. The OP makes a good point when he mentions that a Dead Eye sniper build is a rather skill efficient build, requiring only Dead Eye and CE with anything else being gravy, while close combat (aka brawler) builds will tend to require more skills to be effective.  This is particularly true for man sec builds which require at least AFT and ManSec (or whatever they're called now).  Then there are some other skills that you may not  be able to afford, since they're pretty costly to take.

Also, I think that there's the question of which build will produce more damage, a Dead Eye build or a Man Sec build.  And right now, it seems like a Dead Eye build will be more effective in this regard.  Now, it may be that WG is trying to make players reconsider the value of CE with their close combat BBs, since not taking it would, of course, free up skill points for a different level 4 BB skill.

 

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45 minutes ago, Crucis said:

It's more fun than brawling.  I despise brawling.  That said, I'm not a big fan of the Dead Eye skill for a few reasons.

1. It encourages players to fight at overly extreme ranges, whereas in the past fighting closer to the mid ranges was generally more preferred because it put you in a better position to provide close support to your team.

2. Dead Eye discourages ships that would otherwise be expected to look to close on the enemy from doing so.  

3. The OP makes a good point when he mentions that a Dead Eye sniper build is a rather skill efficient build, requiring only Dead Eye and CE with anything else being gravy, while close combat (aka brawler) builds will tend to require more skills to be effective.  This is particularly true for man sec builds which require at least AFT and ManSec (or whatever they're called now).  Then there are some other skills that you may not  be able to afford, since they're pretty costly to take.

Also, I think that there's the question of which build will produce more damage, a Dead Eye build or a Man Sec build.  And right now, it seems like a Dead Eye build will be more effective in this regard.  Now, it may be that WG is trying to make players reconsider the value of CE with their close combat BBs, since not taking it would, of course, free up skill points for a different level 4 BB skill.

 

Unfortunately CE is way to important to replace it with another skill, specialy for a brawler build that need any help it can get to close the distance without loosing half its health in the process, May be the solution is in CE and super heavy AP skills.

CE could be reworked to give -15 or -18% to detection and  -12% to main gun range so it benefit brawlers more than snipers

super heavy AP currently gives 5% increace damage to AP at the cost of longer fires and flooding, The extra fire/flooding time is not a big deal for a ship that is fighting from long range but it is a huge drawback for brawlers that are constatly on fire due to short range HE spammers so replacing that extra fire/flood with slower shell speed would olso help brawlers more than snipers. 

Edited by pepe_trueno

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6 hours ago, pepe_trueno said:

Unfortunately CE is way to important to replace it with another skill, specially for a brawler build that need any help it can get to close the distance without loosing half its health in the process, May be the solution is in CE and super heavy AP skills.

CE could be reworked to give -15 or -18% to detection and  -12% to main gun range so it benefit brawlers more than snipers

super heavy AP currently gives 5% increase damage to AP at the cost of longer fires and flooding, The extra fire/flooding time is not a big deal for a ship that is fighting from long range but it is a huge drawback for brawlers that are constantly on fire due to short range HE spammers so replacing that extra fire/flood with slower shell speed would olso help brawlers more than snipers. 

I agree that CE is particularly important, but I don't think that "fixing" is requires adding a debuff to it. I'd rather see CE removed and an automatic 10% CE buff baked into all ships.

I just don't like skills that have a debuff added to the actual skill buff.

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On 1/24/2021 at 9:44 PM, EricT2015 said:

Even 5% might be too strong. The psychological effect it has on players who probably like sitting back anyway is too big. It should be reworked entirely with penalties or removed.

Honestly, they need to just take out the skill. Even at 5% or 2% the problem lies in that the skill itself will force players to play like giant [edited] so they get their bonuses. even when the game is on the line, and you need a BB to tank, they'll si9t at the rear purely for a 2% dispersion bonus if they have it.

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The problem with Deadeye isn't that it makes a big difference in hit rate -- it's that it makes players think that there's a big difference.

 

Edited by KilljoyCutter
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BBs were for the most part already effective enough at dealing damage and there were already bbs that excelled at sniping from long range. WG should have added some skills that increase the survivability of bbs as they tank damage. Using potential damage to boost dcp and heal would be useful for bb players that can effectively fight in close enough to support their teams and wouldnt be useful for poor players that have to hide in the back to not die or to leeroy jenkins.

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Just make deadeye the following : -10% to your dispersion, +40% to your turret rotation (Since your guns have been modified to be more steady to shoot long range) and/or perhaps +30 to duration on floods/fires that are inflicted to YOUR BOAT.

 

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