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MannyD_of_The_Sea

Maybe the Casual Player is the Target “Beneficiary” of the Captain Skill Rebone?

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I wonder if us more dedicated players (us forumites in general) are missing WHO is intended to like the new captain skill rebone, becauss we are pretty far removed from that target group.

Maybe what makes for “good game design” in WG’s mind is entirely alien to the “the role of THIS ship type is THIS” assessment of game design that gets applied in the forum to the rebone, or to almost any balance change.

Maybe WG isn’t looking at wholistic game design at all, but rather is looking primarily at what players do as individuals do as individuals in the ships they play, because a largely casual player base doesn’t necessarily care about game theory, they gcare about what they are doing when they are doing it.

Suppose the contention that “too many” (from a hardcore player’s perspective) BB players hang in the back and snipe is “true.” Suppose also that WG sees this data and says “most BB players like to hang out in the back and snipe. Lets make sniping more fun. Let’s allow BB players to do more of what BB players do. BB player will have more fun, comrade.” And we get Deadeye.

Suppose lots of casual cruiser players get their  weenies in a wringer, and find themselves outnumbered, and needing to run. WG: “Cruiser players like stepping on their own wing-wongs. Comrades, lets make wing-wong walking more fun. And we get whatever that skill is.

And so forth with DDs. Gotta let the most prevalent type of DD player do more of what they do.

And so forth with CVs. Make CV players happy by letting CV players do more of what CV players do.

Perhaps in the halls of WG, game design isn’t about “game design,” game theory, proper counters, “rock paper scissors” at all. Perhaps it’s focused on making the casual niche player happier in his niche.

Maybe, those one-question surveys you get after battles, where you rate your level of satisfaction with the battle you just completed, have their impact, after all. If the responses are dominated by the “just shoot stuff” contingent (meaning they vastly outnumber us, then WG’s metrics for player satisfaction will reflect that, as will their efforts to increase that happiness.

It may be better thought out than we think; we just may not be the ones they’re trying to make happy.

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Bravo!! :cap_like:

Be the casual, mate... be the casual

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Well, lately, we see more and more 'competitive' players or at least people who self-identify as 'competitive players' and are really into their stats, etc. complain of there being less players in Randoms like them. 

This is not unusual in mature online games.  The casual players start to take up more of the space in the game, and the hardcores get unhappy, because they start to feel disenfranchised because they start to realize that they're no longer the driving force behind the game.  

There's a lot of players who like to go shoot at botes, watch them blow up, and, while most of them do try to win, they'll never look up what the meta is supposed to be, or the mathematically best skill trees, etc.  But they still play the game and some of them spend money.  They're every bit as valuable to WG as the hardcore/competitives are.  WG has the data to know which is which and how many there are, too.  We don't really have that data.  WG may be acting on their data.  I don't know, and no one else who doesn't work for WG will know, either.

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Kesh_Lives said:

They're every bit as valuable to WG as the hardcore/competitives are. 

If they're the largest segment, they're even more so.

35 minutes ago, Kesh_Lives said:

WG may be acting on their data.  I don't know, and no one else who doesn't work for WG will know, either.

Nope, but few seem to be considering the possibility that this is anything but untested incompetence on WG's part.  I'm just saying there may be another take on it, and we're on the outside looking in.

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4 minutes ago, MannyD_of_The_Sea said:

If they're the largest segment, they're even more so.

Nope, but few seem to be considering the possibility that this is anything but untested incompetence on WG's part.  I'm just saying there may be another take on it, and we're on the outside looking in.

They may be acting on their data AND doing something incompetent.

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Yes, casual players hugely benefited from the fact that a full captain build (often time with similar functionality as the old ones) now costs 70% more XP than before.

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I'm happier with them doing things like that to make money, then release broken premiums like Musahi and Thunderer.

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I might buy that argument for a second...until I see how all the basic builds require 15-20 points now when they used to cost 10-14 and the exp requirements got WORSE because you can't farm ECXP.

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10 points can still get you to CE pretty quickly which is still a near universal tax to play the game.

Once I get a 10 point captain or two I'm usually set for the line

Not sure what you used your EXCP on I only ever used it for retraining on high tier ships

Seems fine to me boss,  but maybe its because I'm one of the casuals, the target of the new rework?

Edited by TaxDollarsAtWork

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4 minutes ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

10 points can still get you to CE pretty quickly which is still a near universal tax to play the game.

Once I get a 10 point captain or two I'm usually set for the line

Not sure what you used your EXCP on I only ever used it for retraining on high tier ships

Seems fine to me boss,  but maybe its because I'm one of the casuals, the target of the new rework?

You wouldn't know what being set for a line is if it hit you in the head.

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4 hours ago, MannyD_of_The_Sea said:

I wonder if us more dedicated players (us forumites in general) are missing WHO is intended to like the new captain skill rebone, becauss we are pretty far removed from that target group.

Maybe what makes for “good game design” in WG’s mind is entirely alien to the “the role of THIS ship type is THIS” assessment of game design that gets applied in the forum to the rebone, or to almost any balance change.

Maybe WG isn’t looking at wholistic game design at all, but rather is looking primarily at what players do as individuals do as individuals in the ships they play, because a largely casual player base doesn’t necessarily care about game theory, they gcare about what they are doing when they are doing it.

Suppose the contention that “too many” (from a hardcore player’s perspective) BB players hang in the back and snipe is “true.” Suppose also that WG sees this data and says “most BB players like to hang out in the back and snipe. Lets make sniping more fun. Let’s allow BB players to do more of what BB players do. BB player will have more fun, comrade.” And we get Deadeye.

Suppose lots of casual cruiser players get their  weenies in a wringer, and find themselves outnumbered, and needing to run. WG: “Cruiser players like stepping on their own wing-wongs. Comrades, lets make wing-wong walking more fun. And we get whatever that skill is.

And so forth with DDs. Gotta let the most prevalent type of DD player do more of what they do.

And so forth with CVs. Make CV players happy by letting CV players do more of what CV players do.

Perhaps in the halls of WG, game design isn’t about “game design,” game theory, proper counters, “rock paper scissors” at all. Perhaps it’s focused on making the casual niche player happier in his niche.

Maybe, those one-question surveys you get after battles, where you rate your level of satisfaction with the battle you just completed, have their impact, after all. If the responses are dominated by the “just shoot stuff” contingent (meaning they vastly outnumber us, then WG’s metrics for player satisfaction will reflect that, as will their efforts to increase that happiness.

It may be better thought out than we think; we just may not be the ones they’re trying to make happy.

All hail the almighty spreadsheet!

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22 minutes ago, awildseaking said:

You wouldn't know what being set for a line is if it hit you in the head.

I see I'm arguing with some one with the maturity of a prepubescent child

Hope you know it's illegal to pose as one on the net

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Just now, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

I see I'm arguing with some one with the maturity of a prepubescent child

Hope you know it's illegal to pose as one on the net

Someone's insecure about the fact they aren't good enough to know what works.

Every ship in the game requires 14 points after this rebork. Most require 18-20 to be truly competitive. Otherwise you're playing with some kind of deficiency that will screw you over, like getting lit on fire substantially more.

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There is nothing good about the 10.0 rework.

I had in the past say... 10 point commanders MINIMUM. So I can put in the four skills to start a DD off for example.

Now I need 16 point commanders to just have the same minimum skills. Leaving me about oh... 6 more points for a 21pointer to wave at the goodies lining the skillland USA store.

To get from 19 to 21 requires 105 dollars in doubleloons per commander. I have about 70 that need more than that to get from 10 to 19 Its disgusting. Approximately 16000 dollars US is needed to buy all of the necessary Doubleloons. Maybe I can hit up Congress with a grant request.. he he.

The game devs will be better off just tossing the entire skill and commander crap. Assume all the ships have the entire skills tree to them and the commanders have the same thing. Let the players pick and choose. Then you have the diversity needed. You might have 4 thunderers in each team now but I am willing to bet each one of those are a different animal in battle when the shooting starts.

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2 hours ago, awildseaking said:

Someone's insecure about the fact they aren't good enough to know what works.

Every ship in the game requires 14 points after this rebork. Most require 18-20 to be truly competitive. Otherwise you're playing with some kind of deficiency that will screw you over, like getting lit on fire substantially more.

Stop exaggerating you don't need a 20pt captain for a t5 ship.

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3 hours ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

10 points can still get you to CE pretty quickly which is still a near universal tax to play the game.

Once I get a 10 point captain or two I'm usually set for the line

Not sure what you used your EXCP on I only ever used it for retraining on high tier ships

Seems fine to me boss,  but maybe its because I'm one of the casuals, the target of the new rework?

Well, one reason to get a 19Pt captain was always to be able to grind eliteCXP at a reasonable level, even for casuals.

I don't know how good the rewards from non-elite commanders are currently, but it seems that getting to that important step in the in-game economy is now even more unrealistic for a lot of casuals than before.

With the rest, yes, a 10Pt captain was often enough to get the essentials for a line, though some lines required a 14Pt or more to be comfortable though (for example CE and IFHE in some CLs). And the constant retraining of commanders when grinding up a line can be tough, more so when you don't have a good premium ship to do this on. I remember it was a huge quality of life improvement in the game to me getting my first 19pt captain as I now didn't need to use fXP or long grinds to retrain captains. Now this is gone again and I barely have enough CXP and fXP for a single 21Pt commander.

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4 hours ago, awildseaking said:

Someone's insecure about the fact they aren't good enough to know what works.

Every ship in the game requires 14 points after this rebork. Most require 18-20 to be truly competitive. Otherwise you're playing with some kind of deficiency that will screw you over, like getting lit on fire substantially more.

This ....The new system kinda screws the newer players of which I am one ....My highest captain is 16 pts and most between 12-14.... Since the update I feel like I'm at a bigger disadvantage than I used to be. I just can't get all I feel like I need to stay as competitive as I once did. Being in a cruiser doesn't help much either ...

Oh well

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9 hours ago, MannyD_of_The_Sea said:

Maybe, those one-question surveys you get after battles, where you rate your level of satisfaction with the battle you just completed, have their impact, after all.

If they do, it's somewhat worrying - whether I was satisfied or dissatisfied with the battle I just played doesn't necessarily reflect how I feel about the game as a whole. 

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6 hours ago, vak_ said:

Yes, casual players hugely benefited from the fact that a full captain build (often time with similar functionality as the old ones) now costs 70% more XP than before.

Not sure if you understand what is going on here.

 

For the vast majority of players, 19 point captains, a full build, were a long term goal that most people would never reach.


What this skill rework is doing is making the choices at level 8-12 more interesting.

 

The idea floated in here that "without a point level, this ship won't work" is a perfectionism that WG really doesn't follow or care about.    Nor is it the game play experience of the majority of players.

 

If you can't drive a ship without it being high captain skill, you are privileged.

 

Seriously, many of you should do the academic exercise of only using a 10 point captain for a week and see how it goes - I know many of you won't because you can't conceive of not using the best thing ever while playing a game but....that is your conceit, a metaphor that constrains your thinking about how this game should be,  not the reality of gameplay for most players.

 


TL/DR   If you are playing without having more then 1 15+ point captain, you are the target of  the skill rework changes.   If you have more then 1, you are not the target of this skill rework.

 

Edited by Anonymous50
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Supposition - is it possible to take out a 11 point captain in a random game and win?  Yes or no?

If you think the answer is  usually no, you are in the minority of the captains in that random game.

I think people would be very surprised to know the average captain skill level at each tier for each class - mostly because I see a LOT of people in here who can not conceive of people playing this game in a way unlike they do, or like they have been told by youtube CC's.

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28 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

If they do, it's somewhat worrying - whether I was satisfied or dissatisfied with the battle I just played doesn't necessarily reflect how I feel about the game as a whole. 

Maybe there is a large segment of the player base for whom “the state of the game” IS the last battle they played.

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53 minutes ago, SeaCat_ said:

This ....The new system kinda screws the newer players of which I am one ....My highest captain is 16 pts and most between 12-14.... Since the update I feel like I'm at a bigger disadvantage than I used to be. I just can't get all I feel like I need to stay as competitive as I once did. Being in a cruiser doesn't help much either ...

Oh well

From all I've seen, cruiser play with the skill revamp has been hit and that is something that WG hopefully addresses this week.

 

But, I honestly wonder how people know when playing a game that they are at a disadvantage being down skill points.

Can people "feel" that extra consumable time their opponent has? 

Can people see that torp acceleration difference  or the speed boost?

 

Yes, having those commander buffs is better then not - but how do we know that this is making a significant difference?  Does WR go  up and if so, is that based on skill increase or on just generally getting better at a game through repetition?

 

Like, we can see the difference of having concealment - that one is obvious.  But the rest? 

 


I note I use 15+ almost exclusively now because I only sail premiums.   I'm not saying don't use them - I'm saying decrying the skill reworks affect on them is missing the point of the skill rework.

Edited by Anonymous50

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56 minutes ago, Anonymous50 said:

From all I've seen, cruiser play with the skill revamp has been hit and that is something that WG hopefully addresses this week.

 

But, I honestly wonder how people know when playing a game that they are at a disadvantage being down skill points.

Can people "feel" that extra consumable time their opponent has? 

Can people see that torp acceleration difference  or the speed boost?

 

Yes, having those commander buffs is better then not - but how do we know that this is making a significant difference?  Does WR go  up and if so, is that based on skill increase or on just generally getting better at a game through repetition?

 

Like, we can see the difference of having concealment - that one is obvious.  But the rest? 

 


I note I use 15+ almost exclusively now because I only sail premiums.   I'm not saying don't use them - I'm saying decrying the skill reworks affect on them is missing the point of the skill rework.

Try playing for a month without any skills but concealment and we'll see ;)

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