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Lert

Deadeye; on how different mechanics conflict with each other's message and intent

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Thoughts from a self-professed BB main:

So over the years WG has made strides to encourage battleships moving forward - or so it is claimed, so they made us believe.

At first they changed the service fee from being dependant on how much damage you took to a flat service fee whether you're sunk or survive with all your health in tact. This was a very good change in my opinion.

Then they started introducing battleships with armor that worked better the closer you are, and secondaries that were actually viable damage sources and DD deterrents. These upgraded secondaries even spread to other nations. The USN with Massachusetts, Georgia and Ohio, the IJN with Shikishima, even the French BBs can be argued to have decent secondaries. Hell, they even put great secondaries on a carrier.

There was talk of introducing a reward for tanking damage. For getting stuck in and being shot at. Did that ever materialize? Or was that just talk? If it did actually get implemented, it wasn't enough to really notice.

And then they also started introducing pure long range sniping BBs. Thunderer, with the same armor profile as Conqueror but without the superheal, Slava with its T7 armor scheme and hyper accurate guns.

And now the captain skill rework. They nerfed the manual secondaries skill, but buffed the German battleships' secondaries base values to compensate. But what about Massachusetts,? Georgia? Ohio? Shikishima?

But Deadeye is the most blatant example of 'we want you to play this way now'. A skill that directly improves accuracy, to a noticable degree, when there are no visible enemies within your concealment range?

So, which is it WG? Do you want us to get stuck in and move up, dishing it out as well as taking it? Or do you want us to sit back with a bowl of chips on our lap and just yeet long range salvoes at whoever is bold enough to move up? There are old captains and bold captains, but not many old, bold captains.

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another way of saying this or a TL:DR for those that want the short and sweet
 

WG: "We want battles to end quicker and passive gameplay to be lessened"
Also WG: Introduces BBs that are pure snipers and a skill rework that has a skill that encourages sniping for better accuracy while also severely hurting secondary builds, among other things over the years that would make a player not want to push up

and i fear subs will only worsen the amount of passive play, if its even possible to do so now with, from what ive heard, most BBs sitting in the back already with the Deadeye skill

Edited by tcbaker777
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What shows best the conflicting messages behind WG's decisions is how most BBs go for Deadeye and CE to further boost their  accuracy bonus, whereas cruisers  that traditionally play at closer ranges try to get almost the same detection range as their firing range to boost their DPM.

19.6km Henri IV concealment, 20km Stalingrad, 17.9km Hindenburg are real.

Edited by warheart1992
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3 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

What shows best the conflicting messages behind WG's decisions is how most BBs go for Deadeye and CE to further boost their  accuracy bonus, whereas cruisers try to get almost the same detection range as their firing range to boost their DPM.

19.6km Henri IV concealment, 20km Stalingrad, 17.9km Hindenburg are real.

Heck, my Henry with UU is setup for 20.6 gun range, 20.3 detect, and a 9.3 sec reload after captain skill modifiers.

Too bad it now sails like a brick

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"Reward for tanking damage" = Pittance XP for Potential Damage added.

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38 minutes ago, Lert said:

So, which is it WG? Do you want us to get stuck in and move up, dishing it out as well as taking it? Or do you want us to sit back with a bowl of chips on our lap and just yeet long range salvoes at whoever is bold enough to move up? There are old captains and bold captains, but not many old, bold captains.

I think they want you to be able to play both (or all, or however you want), however the intended effect of making both sniping, midranging and brawling viable, is not working as planned (for now at least).

This isn't intended to promote music hall line dancing

https://youtu.be/xVYuhGIUuto?t=47

Edited by hateboat

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40 minutes ago, hateboat said:

I think they want you to be able to play both (or all, or however you want), however the intended effect of making both sniping, midranging and brawling viable, is not working as planned (for now at least).

This isn't intended to promote music hall line dancing

https://youtu.be/xVYuhGIUuto?t=47

Pretty sure it's all viable, it's just that sniping has the least risk involved. People feel "safe" sniping.

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42 minutes ago, hateboat said:

I think they want you to be able to play both

Then they should give us actual captain skills to promote that, too, instead of giving us things that promote stand-off sniping and nothing that rewards not doing so in any meaningful way.

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7 minutes ago, Lert said:

Then they should give us actual captain skills to promote that, too, instead of giving us things that promote stand-off sniping and nothing that rewards not doing so in any meaningful way.

close combat skill, which promotes main battery reload speed when within secondary range (which means 7-12 km at end game), however this is not strong enough (it deserves to have a turret rotation buff too), while mid range bb skills are quite absent (stuff for between 18-13 km range).

The idea of the close combat skill which promotes synergy between 2 different dpm sources, is a good one. The idea..

Edited by hateboat

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1 hour ago, PhosphorusForFun said:

Heck, my Henry with UU is setup for 20.6 gun range, 20.3 detect, and a 9.3 sec reload after captain skill modifiers.

Too bad it now sails like a brick

smolensk is like you guys have range?

 

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3 minutes ago, hateboat said:

close combat skill, which promotes main battery reload speed when within secondary range (which means 7-12 km at end game), however this is not strong enough (it deserves to have a turret rotation buff too), while mid range bb skills are quite absent (stuff for between 18-13 km range).

The idea of the close combat skill which promotes synergy between 2 different dpm sources, is a good one. The idea..

well, I can have a tank build but why would I move foward when the enemy team can just snipe me without any risk... is like playing CVs. doing dmg without risk

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The HE spam is supported by Deadeye; I presume that with more taking Deadeye, fewer are taking FP. 

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I'm not really that worried, after all this is live testing and skills will be adjusted in due time. 

In the long term, this is with all probability setting up the conditions for introducing subs into the game. By extending the engagement ranges, there is more "open water" for Subs to infiltrate and pick isolated targets. In theory DDs will be operating farther from BBs, leaving them more vulnerable to infiltrating sub attacks. DDs have a relatively safer environment (BBs and Cruisers operating at longer ranges) to do ASW duty. CLs wll probably have a strong side role as ASW platforms, helping them recoup relevance lost from the increased engagement ranges. If you think the skill change is disruptive, just wait for subs... oh my... :cap_popcorn:

Edited by ArIskandir
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1 hour ago, warheart1992 said:

What shows best the conflicting messages behind WG's decisions is how most BBs go for Deadeye and CE to further boost their  accuracy bonus, whereas cruisers  that traditionally play at closer rwngeo try to get almost the same detection range as their firing range to boost their DPM.

19.6km Henri IV concealment, 20km Stalingrad, 17.9km Hindenburg are real.

Hey, 17.8km Venezia is also great!

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2 hours ago, Lert said:

Thoughts from a self-professed BB main:

So over the years WG has made strides to encourage battleships moving forward - or so it is claimed, so they made us believe.

At first they changed the service fee from being dependant on how much damage you took to a flat service fee whether you're sunk or survive with all your health in tact. This was a very good change in my opinion.

Then they started introducing battleships with armor that worked better the closer you are, and secondaries that were actually viable damage sources and DD deterrents. These upgraded secondaries even spread to other nations. The USN with Massachusetts, Georgia and Ohio, the IJN with Shikishima, even the French BBs can be argued to have decent secondaries. Hell, they even put great secondaries on a carrier.

There was talk of introducing a reward for tanking damage. For getting stuck in and being shot at. Did that ever materialize? Or was that just talk? If it did actually get implemented, it wasn't enough to really notice.

And then they also started introducing pure long range sniping BBs. Thunderer, with the same armor profile as Conqueror but without the superheal, Slava with its T7 armor scheme and hyper accurate guns.

And now the captain skill rework. They nerfed the manual secondaries skill, but buffed the German battleships' secondaries base values to compensate. But what about Massachusetts,? Georgia? Ohio? Shikishima?

But Deadeye is the most blatant example of 'we want you to play this way now'. A skill that directly improves accuracy, to a noticable degree, when there are no visible enemies within your concealment range?

So, which is it WG? Do you want us to get stuck in and move up, dishing it out as well as taking it? Or do you want us to sit back with a bowl of chips on our lap and just yeet long range salvoes at whoever is bold enough to move up? There are old captains and bold captains, but not many old, bold captains.

Impressions.

 

Plus. don't forget that Secondaries base dispersion was/is nerfed

Thunderer is supposed to have worse base dispersion on it's main guns, It doesnt. 

 

 

Edited by Xwing_Red1

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1 hour ago, Lert said:

But Deadeye is the most blatant example of 'we want you to play this way now'. A skill that directly improves accuracy, to a noticable degree, when there are no visible enemies within your concealment range?

Deadeye by itself doesn't seem like much.  10% dispersion buff?  That doesn't mean anything right?  But it does, because it works in conjunction with the rest of the game.

Accuracy / Dispersion Penalties in the Game

- Most Camo:  4% dispersion penalty

- CSM1 upgrade in Slot 5:  5% dispersion penalty

- Tier 4 DD Skill:  Dazzle, 20% dispersion penalty for that DD's attackers for 15 seconds after it is spotted

 

Then we have various Accuracy Buffers to try to Overwhelm that

+ ASM1 upgrade in Slot 3 (Not available to any USN Battleship):  7% dispersion buff

+ APRM2 upgrade in Slot 6 (Only available to Tier IX-X USN Battleships):  11% dispersion buff

+ Tier 4 BB Skill:  Deadeye, "-10% main battery dispersion if there is no visible enemy ship within the ship's non-firing detectability radius"

+ Tier 4 Cruiser suicide Skill:  Outnumbered, key benefit of 10% dispersion buff, "If there are more visible hostile ships than allies within the ship's main battery firing range, this skill is activated."

+ Various Legendary Upgrades:  Some Legendaries like Yamato's provide additional dispersion buff.  Yamato's Slot 6 Legendary provides 7%, which stacks with ASM1 in Slot 3 for 14% dispersion accuracy.

 

For a Battleship focused on Main Battery performance, 7% due to ASM1 is typical accuracy buff, but with Deadeye, that stacks up to 17% dispersion buffing.  Let's use Lyon as an example:

Upgraded but stripped down Lyon has 18.62km max gun range and 249m horizontal dispersion and 150mm vertical dispersion at that range.

That same Lyon, given ASM1 in Slot 3, dispersion improves to 232m horizontal dispersion and 139mm vertical dispersion at max range.

But what if Lyon is given Deadeye + Stealth Build?  Concealment drops to 13.83km, which is still very reasonable to get Deadeye buff going for an additional 10% dispersion buff.  The dispersion at max range would drop to 208.8m horizontal and 125.1m vertical.  Lyon will need all that help if attacking a High Tier Ship with Full Stealth Build (CSM1 + Camo), which is a 9% dispersion penalty.  Without Deadeye in this case attacking a Full Stealth Build High Tier Ship, Lyon would actually have in the end, an accuracy penalty.  With Deadeye, no.

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2 hours ago, Lert said:

There are old captains and bold captains, but not many old, bold captains.

This.

09/2015. Not as old as some, but been around a while.

Stopped being bold a long time ago, when I realized my dodging abilities didn't permit such, and just got me sunk for trying.

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1 hour ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

This.

09/2015. Not as old as some, but been around a while.

Stopped being bold a long time ago, when I realized my dodging abilities didn't permit such, and just got me sunk for trying.

There's only so much you can dodge even in a nimble Cruiser.

 

They can try dancing with Atlanta against that Sinop in open water if they want.

 

When I was new to the game, other players beat it into me that being too aggressive gets you smashed to bits.  There's a time for aggressiveness in a match... But do it at the wrong time and you're a free kill for the reds.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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3 hours ago, tcbaker777 said:

another way of saying this or a TL:DR for those that want the short and sweet
 

WG: "We want battles to end quicker and passive gameplay to be lessened"
Also WG: Introduces BBs that are pure snipers and a skill rework that has a skill that encourages sniping for better accuracy while also severely hurting secondary builds, among other things over the years that would make a player not want to push up

and i fear subs will only worsen the amount of passive play, if its even possible to do so now with, from what ive heard, most BBs sitting in the back already with the Deadeye skill

Don't forget that the skill changes also pushed cruisers to be more "glass cannons" than they were before, adding more damage-spam skills while removing most survival skills.  

Which makes cruisers and everyone else less likely to advance, to attack, etc.  

 

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7 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

Don't forget that the skill changes also pushed cruisers to be more "glass cannons" than they were before, adding more damage-spam skills while removing most survival skills.  

Which makes cruisers and everyone else less likely to advance, to attack, etc.  

 

Here's a fun contradiction to how things were in the old system.

 

Battleships are now going for Full Stealth to better use Deadeye.

Some Cruisers are intentionally going for worse stealth to have Top Grade Gunner in effect as much as possible.  You literally have some Non-Super Cruisers with intentionally worse concealment than any Battleship out there.

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5 hours ago, Lert said:

Thoughts from a self-professed BB main:

So over the years WG has made strides to encourage battleships moving forward - or so it is claimed, so they made us believe.

At first they changed the service fee from being dependant on how much damage you took to a flat service fee whether you're sunk or survive with all your health in tact. This was a very good change in my opinion.

Then they started introducing battleships with armor that worked better the closer you are, and secondaries that were actually viable damage sources and DD deterrents. These upgraded secondaries even spread to other nations. The USN with Massachusetts, Georgia and Ohio, the IJN with Shikishima, even the French BBs can be argued to have decent secondaries. Hell, they even put great secondaries on a carrier.

There was talk of introducing a reward for tanking damage. For getting stuck in and being shot at. Did that ever materialize? Or was that just talk? If it did actually get implemented, it wasn't enough to really notice.

And then they also started introducing pure long range sniping BBs. Thunderer, with the same armor profile as Conqueror but without the superheal, Slava with its T7 armor scheme and hyper accurate guns.

And now the captain skill rework. They nerfed the manual secondaries skill, but buffed the German battleships' secondaries base values to compensate. But what about Massachusetts,? Georgia? Ohio? Shikishima?

But Deadeye is the most blatant example of 'we want you to play this way now'. A skill that directly improves accuracy, to a noticable degree, when there are no visible enemies within your concealment range?

So, which is it WG? Do you want us to get stuck in and move up, dishing it out as well as taking it? Or do you want us to sit back with a bowl of chips on our lap and just yeet long range salvoes at whoever is bold enough to move up? There are old captains and bold captains, but not many old, bold captains.

The whole rework was not done to improve the game for everyone. It was done specifically to improve soviet ship performance. Just look at the biggest changes and how only soviet line grossly benefits. 

What was the one and only threat to a bow tanking soviet ship? HE? Fires? Can't nerf those else soviet cruisers suffer... so what else is melting bow tanking vodka sippers? Secondaries. Soviet ships care less about having secondaries since they are bias designed to bow tank. 

Solution: make secondaries useless by lowering their accuracy . 

How to make soviet ships much better at bow tanking? Increase their turret rotation and lower their reload. Since they get bias accuracy boost at ~12km why not give it a reload boost too? Boom... -10% reload when in secondary range. Now soviet ships just need to spend only 3 points and 1 equipment slot to max out secondary range and get the reload boost. turret rotation+lower reload wait+enemy secondaries now kill fish all around soviet ships = WIN

Dead-eye so many complain about? Yeah, lets run that through the soviet line shall we? Their BBs have good accuracy/dispersion at long range.. just a tad worse than IJN. Their max range is shorter of course but.. 10% dispersion reduction now makes Kremlin as accurate as a Thunderer without any modifiers. Kremlin and other BBs can now fire long range accurately. Next is Slava... fast ship with excellent stealth and already bias as F low dispersion... and it has to stay in long range else its accuracy drops. Slap dead-eye on it and HELLO! All shells fall exactly where aimed now..zero dispersion for all practical purposes. Where before 3 citadels was the norm now you get 6+. Brilliant komrade. 

Super Heavy AP ... mmm now lets guess which is the ONLY BB that gets super short wait timer repair and damage control so that this penalty becomes completely irrelevant? Oh yes, Kremlin. 

Meanwhile Yamato, Thunderer, Vermont .... get a weak effect on their accuracy all because the built in vertical much higher than soviet dispersion. They benefit, but nowhere close to how Kremlin and Slava benefit. 

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4 hours ago, hateboat said:

I think they want you to be able to play both (or all, or however you want), however the intended effect of making both sniping, midranging and brawling viable, is not working as planned (for now at least).

That's my take.

I think that they wanted to rein in some of the power brawlers, and make long-range a viable playstyle.

Unfortunately, they (over)did both at once.

 

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I got dev struck, in a Mainz, from a Pommern....A POMMERN...at 20 KM.     A ship with 1.5 Sigma sniped me from 20 KM.

Deadeye is BROKEN

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53 minutes ago, Skyfaller said:

 

Super Heavy AP ... mmm now lets guess which is the ONLY BB that gets super short wait timer repair and damage control so that this penalty becomes completely irrelevant? Oh yes, Kremlin. 

Do people even use SHAP? It’s like all of 750 citadel damage/250 pen damage on some of the biggest guns.  So far I’ve found better things to soend my points on.

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