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Moggytwo

The post skill rework meta proves the effect BB's have on the game play of all ships

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This thread is a bit of an addendum to another thread I posted back in November last year.  The basic concept of this is that the massive BB overpopulation was the biggest problem with the game at the time, and that BB's are the primary motivator of the meta we have had since about 2016-17, being the main cause of passive game play.

You can peruse that thread here:

 

Now I'd like to discuss the impact of one BB only skill, Dead Eye, and how and why that has influenced the meta, and how this proves the point I was making in the previous thread.

Dead Eye reduces BB dispersion ellipse diameter by 10%, which in turn reduces the dispersion ellipse area by 19%.  This only activates at longer ranges, encouraging BB's to sit further back.  This is basically as if WG have done an experiment to prove the effect of BB's on the meta, so I guess that's one unintended positive of a pretty poorly designed skill.

So what we have now are more passive BB's that also are more capable of high alpha strikes, and this has exacerbated the issues that I described in the previous thread, which means that cruisers are far less able to work the mid-range in the open, and work the flanks, and they have to be far more passive as well.  This also means the DD's do not have the support they need, and are now required to operate further away from their team, exposing them more than they should be, and causing many of them to operate more passively as well.

This clearly demonstrates the reason that we had all along for the passive meta - too many battleships.  BB's are the class that limits cruiser mobility and flanking potential, and the class that pushes the engagement ranges out to an excessive level.  The more BB's, the more this happens, and the better the BB's are at sniping, the more this happens. 

The Dead Eye skill has proven this concept utterly.

Like everything else in the game, this is about balance.  BB's are an essential class, but just like some chocolate is great, but too much is very bad for you - too many BB's are very bad for the game.  WG need to rebalance the consequences of BB mistakes to be rapid and significant, in the same way that DD's and cruisers have rapid and significant consequences when they stuff up.  A hard cap of four BB's per team would be helpful as well, with WG aiming for an average number of BB's being in the 3 to 4 per team range.

This then flows into encouraging most BB's to operate in the in the mid-range, and I also have another thread that discusses this concept and how to achieve it:

If BB's had a population of 3 to 4 per team, and most BB's operated in the mid-range, then the game would be much less passive and more dynamic, and games would be much more enjoyable for players of every class.  The captain skill rework provides the perfect opportunity for WG to move the game in this direction.

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I've been saying the same thing for a long time as well. Accurate big guns that can overmatch most cruisers are very toxic to cruiser game play which turn affects DD game play.

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But how long will this Meta last? What could break it?

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A lot of DD mains went from DD'S to BB's after the CV rework purely because you have some HP to spare from the air attacks.

You talk about passive meta yet you dont mention your little pet class CV's and the fact they have been pushing a passive, blob up camp fest for 2 years now.

Just now, Rouxi said:

I've been saying the same thing for a long time as well. Accurate big guns that can overmatch most cruisers are very toxic to cruiser game play which turn affects DD game play

Flip side to this is high DPM HE spammers that take mostly overpens from BB AP or outright bounce BB AP. Also CV's can pretty much do what they like to BB's. Sure get rid of a BB per match but get rid of CV's as well if you truly want more diverse game play.

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As I said in a previous.  Any skill that keeps BBs at range is a good thing for the following:

  1. Keeps the CV company at the back.
  2. makes having subs that can farm ships at the back a thing.
  3. Makes brawling ships that want to be active  - get punished

 

Yeah, I hate deadeye (and other AFK ships), and IMHO the fun of this game is the brawl, not the snipe.

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9 minutes ago, Laser_Beam said:

As I said in a previous.  Any skill that keeps BBs at range is a good thing for the following:

  1. Keeps the CV company at the back.
  2. makes having subs that can farm ships at the back a thing.
  3. Makes brawling ships that want to be active  - get punished

 

Yeah, I hate deadeye (and other AFK ships), and IMHO the fun of this game is the brawl, not the snipe.

Agreed. If WG truly wants long range gameplay then they should consider making the maps bigger with less islands. Until then, they need to encourage players to advance 

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As a cruiser player, I usually don't have problems with BBs in order to creep up and give some close support near the caps, using islands. I have concealmemt and hard cover around to take shelter when needed... But guess which ship type makes concealment and terrain useless? ... Yes that one... not a BB sitting  20 km away.

BBs are not what prevent me to push, flank or take calculated risks... Is that other ship type that spots me whenever it wants, who always can have access to my broadside and from which I can't disengage.

BBs are prey, the more they are the bigger the feast, the only thing preventing them from being farmed to appropiate levels by DDs and cruisers is the eye in the sky, the fun police... Do you want something to blame for the BB infestation and the passive meta? Just look up.

I couldn't care less about Deadeye, do want to change something? Give the stupid CVs some fighter planes, make them a third or a half of their aircraft complement, let them fck themselves and fight for (air) superiority the same way DDs do for cap control. Whoever comes up on top wins the right to rule the skies, fair deal.

Edited by ArIskandir
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Why do people post on accounts where they have supposedly only have 20 games played . Is it because they play on a different server than the one there commenting on I don't get it .

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To really enhance the campimg sniping meta WG needs to make the map bigger. The Champagne has a range of 25 km, 30 with spotter plane, and a 12.9 detection range, which seems like it can almost cover most of the map.

I wonder if the meta changes WG wanted make were for other servers like the Russian one. There they may have wanted to reduce brawling?

The long range sniping  is more true to historical than what the game encouraged, But on the other hand, CVs were a carrier's primary target. So that seems like historical is not the focus.

There may be more things WG wanted to accomplish with the changes:

Reduce brawling BBs?

Nerf super cruisers?

Reduce the number of elite commanders? So that people would not feel the need to play with a maxed out commander?

Any others?

Sub prep too?

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Your logic seems to be similar to "now your husband is literally battering you. The perfect opportunity to leave them!".

 

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1 hour ago, clammboy said:

Why do people post on accounts where they have supposedly only have 20 games played . Is it because they play on a different server than the one there commenting on I don't get it .

Moggy is from SEA, he thinks NA players are bad so he comes here to "educate" us even tho NA keeps winning everything recently.

Im an NA main.

 

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Been trying to prove this wrong by playing my cruisers and I just proved myself that this is indeed a correct assessment of the situation. In a cruiser, you have to now take a huge risk just to get into firing range and as soon as you open up, you get shot at by everything and take hits, no matter what you do. It's almost suicidal now to move forward and support your DDs early on as your Battleships all sit back too far to offer meaningful supporting fire.

Combine this with CV's, who can almost perma spot you....jesus, what a disaster. Well done Wargaming, you didn't just shoot yourself in the foot here, you blew off your leg.

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3 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

As a cruiser player, I usually don't have problems with BBs in order to creep up and give some close support near the caps, using islands. I have concealmemt and hard cover around to take shelter when needed... But guess which ship type makes concealment and terrain useless? ... Yes that one... not a BB sitting  20 km away.

BBs are not what prevent me to push, flank or take calculated risks... Is that other ship type that spots me whenever it wants, who always can have access to my broadside and from which I can't disengage.

BBs are prey, the more they are the bigger the feast, the only thing preventing them from being farmed to appropiate levels by DDs and cruisers is the eye in the ski, the fun police... Do you want something to blame for the BB infestation and the passive meta? Just look up.

I couldn't care less about Deadeye, do want to change something? Give the stupid CVs some fighter planes, make them a third or a half of their aircraft complement, let them fck themselves and fight for (air) superiority the same way DDs do for cap control. Whoever comes up on top wins the right to rule the skies, fair deal.

I love this idea. And WG hates it. CV's are built and intended to be cushy padded tricycles with safety cages. BB's lurking at the back make good CV cover. Just another installment of World of War Planes Ships.

 

Edited by Balon_Greyjoy

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That is an incorrect assessment of the situation. Using a problem caused by WG to prove an incorrect point.

CVs are the main drive behind passive play, whether BBs are present or not. It is the CV that can permaspot a DD farther down the enemy lines at any time it wants, putting it at great risk and forcing it to play more passively. It is CV that can spot a cruiser oit of position at any time or making that firing the gun becomes a death trap because you can get spotted even from behind cover.

The fact that WG ruined the gameplay by promoting one particular toxic playstyle, exactly as it had been predicted long before the patch even went to PT, doesn't change this fact. If WG decides to do the right thing and rollback this disgraceful rework and put up another one that promotes more agressive gameplay, CV will continue to enforce passive gameplay because of how terribly bad it is designed.

WG has killed any incentive to push, even if BBs that should do be doing the pushing, and that is entirely WG's fault, not the players. 

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The BB passivity has been here months before the skill rework...I have a few videos on (current meta) before now.....Do I like the current meta, not really but it isn't any of our business to dictate what people should or shall play. I like ALL classes , not everyone has a huge amount of time to learn different skills and feel more comfortable or enjoy a certain class more than others....The game has changed in the recent months but it will continue to change , wait for subs to get here,lol.

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its nice to see BBs coming back to play and having fun remember every class needs to have fun too..Cvs getting buff , Cruisers ,BBs and DDs..every class the more player plays the better now its up to the individual what class he wants to play and right now BBs are the popular because of the skill dead eye and i wish that skill has a compensation since you are too far away at the back 20km tops wish the future nerf of that is having the compensation of slow reload guns.. sample if your Main battery reload is 25 sec if you have the dead eye skill youll have a reload of 35sec. Its like the Henri that we know that have the speed and its fast sniping from long range now their compensation from being fast is if they slow down their acceleration is so slow.

Edited by 9TenSix2Eight
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2 minutes ago, Meta_Man said:

The BB passivity has been here months before the skill rework...I have a few videos on (current meta) before now.....Do I like the current meta, not really but it isn't any of our business to dictate what people should or shall play. I like ALL classes , not everyone has a huge amount of time to learn different skills and feel more comfortable or enjoy a certain class more than others....The game has changed in the recent months but it will continue to change , wait for subs to get here,lol.

Survival of the fittest !

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I noticed a change in yesterday’s ranked gameplay by BBs. Quite a few sat in the back and I can only assume they were trying out their new dead eye skill. Made it mostly a DD battle for the caps. Seemed like lower numbers of cruisers as well. 

Honestly, I don’t think there is any “one way” to set up any kind of captain. Situations change from game to game so sometimes they work for you and sometimes not. I’m just not a fan of the “gimmicks” that these new skills offer. I can’t follow the game/map to see who’s in my detection range or how many. Things are getting just a bit too complicated for me and I think WGing needs to throttle things back a bit.

Deep down you know they’re out to make money (which is what businesses do and I’m ok with that), but once the free trials are over, resetting your skipper is going to get $$$...

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If you want battleships to take up forward positions then you need to nerf the living hell out of destroyers, probably by taking torpedo reloads out of the game. Seem fair? :Smile_teethhappy:

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Funny how all the CV haters blame CV's for BB's being passive, when in reality its DD torp soup that scares BB drivers. I know its what keeps me further back than I want to be, if there are only a couple of DD's in a match I have no problem leading the charge in a BB.

Passive BB's have been an issue since beta, not all BB drivers are. Some are aggressive, some are passive and most play different BB's differently. Im more likely to sit back in a Yamato and more likely to be up front in a Tirp or GK, either way I still like to travel with a group and not yolo so if my team is moving up I will move with them, even if I am at the back of the pack in my Yamato.

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the problem are not battleships, The real problem are the mechanics.

The game heavily favours hiding and sniping over brawling. sniping BBs, HE spamming cruisers behind some island or a torpedo wall that comes out of nowhere the result is the same: playing aggressive is a death sentence

 

whant less camping? then the solution is give players a reason not to camp, things like:

-removing overmatch mechanics

-reworking fires mechanics to be less infuriating, may be something like world of tanks where fires are much stronger but can only be started when hitting the engine area.

-reduce ships max range, given the maps size ships max range should be of 19km not over 25km

- buff or introduce more skills for close range combat. 

 

Edited by pepe_trueno

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CVs still have a worse effect on the Meta. Being able to spot for you self, out turn your target to always get there broadside, all while being at the back of the map is not healthy. Yes too many BBs being able to overmatch is bad, but what CVs can do is far worse.

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If I'm in a cruiser I want there to be 5 BBs per team.  They're the easiest ships to play around and have far less consistent damage output than HE spamming cruisers, while also generally being the easiest ships (when played right) to farm down.  In that regard I would much rather have a meta dominated by BBs than a meta dominated by cruisers.  The problem with BBs right now is threefold.

 

1. Deadeye is far too strong a skill that makes many BBs blatantly over powered 
2. Most BB players have taken to playing so passively cruisers simply don't have the range to even hit them. 
3. There is an over abundance of Thunderers/Conquerors which further disincentivizes anyone from pushing.

 

 

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it used to be, you either spec'd your BB for main guns, or secondaries. With the secondaries being complete trash now, you have 1 option for your BB, main guns and sit in the back.... 

 

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 old news it's been that way since the game's conception been many post about how WG panders to their base BB players.

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