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tm63au

Been Over 3 Days And Not A Peep From Lesta On The Rework Disaster

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Yes i know there quite a few people more or less like the new rework but if you look at the ratio of posts and threads the general consensus its a cluster.

I would have put money on a announcement on a new rare or popular ship going into testing within 24 hours of this patch being out from the spin doctors (Kita announcement after USN BB split uproar ) so props for lesta  there for not trying to distract the community.

 I have posted quite a few threads on the demise of the BB particularly secondary build ships,as we all know the struggle for WOWS supremacy between the two age old foes The BBbabies and The DD mafia has been a epic battle, which has now decisively swung in favor of the Mafia as the island humping META is complete with this new patch and the rework has basically destroyed  secondary builds.

German Battleships now might as well adopt  " The Fleet In Being " strategy AKA Port  Queens .

Still there is some light at the end of the tunnel as those SEA server expats that ventured to the NA sever should feel even more at home with this new META.

I guess there will be sudden rush for Kitikama now if and when the ship gets released.   

  

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Spoiler alert: they won't do anything and will cite the mythical spreadsheet 

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Disaster?  I think you're overstating it.  The balance is awful, and the meta that more passive yet deadly BB's have created is pretty awful, but these are just balance issues that can be fixed pretty easily.  The balance after major reworks is always bad, and no one should be surprised at this.  The way WG does this sort of stuff is the same every time - they introduce the concept, go through a few design and balance iterations on their internal test servers and on the PTS, and then when it is roughly balanced on them they release it to the general server.  They then take the immense amounts of data they get from this release to balance the biggest issues over the first month or two post release, after which they continue to do further fine tuning for around roughly six months after rework release.  At this time we have generally achieved a pretty decent level of balance.

They do this because it gets the game from concept to a post-rework balanced state in the shortest time frame.  If they kept balancing for longer before release, then at release of the rework it would be slightly better balanced (but still with balance issues that would become obviously apparent once tens of thousands of players are using the new skills post-rework), but we would have to wait far longer for the implementation.  They are being excessively cautious with subs due to being a bit gun-shy after the CV rework release issues, and that is taking a very long time indeed, but it will still have significant balance issues on release that will require a fair bit of balancing over the first couple of months.  This is also inevitable.

16 minutes ago, tm63au said:

I have posted quite a few threads on the demise of the BB particularly secondary build ships,as we all know the struggle for WOWS supremacy between the two age old foes The BBbabies and The DD mafia has been a epic battle, which has now decisively swung in favor of the Mafia as the island humping META is complete with this new patch and the rework has basically destroyed  secondary builds.

German Battleships now might as well adopt  " The Fleet In Being " strategy AKA Port  Queens .

Secondary BB's have been hugely buffed with the skill rework.  The problem is, that sniping BB's have been buffed much more, and where the majority of BB's previously preferred to operate at mid-range, they have now been effectively turned into sniping BB's with the introduction of the Dead Eye skill.  This means that any BB that wants to move into secondary range becomes the target for the entire enemy team.  When WG fixes this to bring the mid-range BB's back to where they should be, secondary BB's will be able to operate once again, and will be better than they were pre-rework.

Overall the skill rework was very necessary, and the basic implementation (balance aside) is very good.  So long as WG can get the balance right over the next few months, the game will be much better off for this rework.

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5 minutes ago, EricT2015 said:

Spoiler alert: they won't do anything and will cite the mythical spreadsheet 

Spot ON:Smile_great:

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7 minutes ago, EricT2015 said:

Spoiler alert: they won't do anything and will cite the mythical spreadsheet 

I do like these spreadsheets.

It's a known fact that:

  1. 88% of all stats are made up on the spot
  2. 55% of all people will agree with this (point 1)
  3. 10% of players actually like the Steven Seagull voice
  4. 99.9% of the community will vote for bacon (when presented as a vote option).
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2 minutes ago, Laser_Beam said:

I do like these spreadsheets.

It's a known fact that:

  1. 88% of all stats are made up on the spot
  2. 55% of all people will agree with this (point 1)
  3. 10% of players actually like the Steven Seagull voice
  4. 99.9% of the community will vote for bacon (when presented as a vote option).

:Smile_great:

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I wouldn't call it a disaster but it is most definitely a cluster. I said it in another thread. This reminds me of the CV rework where it took weeks or months to get everything on track. I don't expect any less out of this mess honestly. Since I think it is going to take time, I have demounted equipment upgrades from most of my ships except a few that I am using. All my remaining captains are zeroed out with no skills assigned in anticipation of tweaking skills by Wargaming. If you must use a captain with skills assigned, I suggest playing with just one or two commanders until things level out. 

BTW this is for the average/casual player. If you are a good player and are experimenting with the new skills, have at it and please post feedback. 

Edited by Taylor3006
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23 minutes ago, tm63au said:

Yes i know there quite a few people more or less like the new rework but if you look at the ratio of posts and threads the general consensus its a cluster.

I'm with you, but heres the reality....the forum is just a microcosm of the player base.  If WG actually started losing money over something they did, they would roll it back in a heart beat, that is the reality.  What this tells me is no matter how vocal people are on the forum...it's literally meaningless to WG.  They aren't losing anything over it.

I mean look at CV's.  Its been how long since the CV rework hit? Until the skill tree update there were probably constantly 2-3 "I hate CVs" threads on the front page, constantly.  Either 1. People talk a big game on the forum but still throw money at WG.  OR 2. People on the forum are simply not representative of the vast majority of the player base.

There have been so many things people were like "this is the end of WG".  "People will stop spending money and they will go broke".....well, that hasn't happened yet.  WG hasn't lost any money and won't lose any money over this update either.  For every forum dweller they lose theres multiple people that will be actively engaging in the new monetization they introduced with the rework, buying dubloons and dismissing captains to get that captain xp.

I mean think about it, if you ran a business and made a change that made your income tank you would fix the problem.  The reality is no matter what people on the forum think, WG's income IS NOT tanking over this.  They would have rolled back this update yesterday if they saw their daily income tanking.

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If they nerf the *honk* out of Deadeye then the rest will probably be tolerable. Not pleasant, definitely not ideal, but tolerable. Ideally, they'd also move PT back to a 1pt skill for DDs and give cruisers back their survival builds, but... I'm not holding my breath for either.

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8 minutes ago, Taco_De_Moist said:

I'm with you, but heres the reality....the forum is just a microcosm of the player base.  If WG actually started losing money over something they did, they would roll it back in a heart beat, that is the reality.  What this tells me is no matter how vocal people are on the forum...it's literally meaningless to WG.  They aren't losing anything over it.

I see no reason to believe that the forum & Reddit posters are not representative of the player base as a whole. You can see wildly differing opinions on many subjects here so if you are assuming that the "silent majority" of players are happy with the rework as a whole, I would say there is zero reason to believe that. I do agree that there is much hyperbolic talk about the end of the game, just like there is when any significant change is made to the game. It is probably more a speed bump. I expect eventually with some tweaking, the skills will be fine and players for the most part, will be angry about something else like submarines when they show up in the game......... 

Edited by Taylor3006

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8 minutes ago, Taylor3006 said:

I see no reason to believe that the forum & Reddit posters are not representative of the player base as a whole.

Then why isn't it hitting WG in the pocket book?  I mean I know many people will say it is.  But again, everybody exclaims WG is all about the benjamins.  If that is the case, they do whatever keeps people spending money.  If their rework doesn't slow down spend...or possibly increases it (which was an obvious motivation for this rework) they won't change it.

"we all hate CV's" yet there are CVs in every damn game if not double CVs.

"We hate deadeye!" Well, just playing the game now tells me exactly the opposite.

If you hate deadeye, be a friggin person of principle and dont friggin use it.  Every damn high tier game is full of BBs obviously using the skill and doing everything in their damn power by running away to keep it active the whole game.

Edited by Taco_De_Moist
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Just now, Taco_De_Moist said:

Then why isn't it hitting WG in the pocket book?  I mean I know many people will say it is.  But again, everybody exclaims WG is all about the benjamins.  If that is the case, they do whatever keeps people spending money.  If their rework doesn't slow down spend...or possibly increases it (which was an obvious motivation for this rework) they won't change it.

I suppose I could ask you "how do you know it isn't?". They are a private company so do not file earnings reports so there is no way for us to know for sure. I suppose if they start laying off employees or closing offices, we could infer but without earnings reports, we got nada. 

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40 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

Disaster?  I think you're overstating it.  The balance is awful, and the meta that more passive yet deadly BB's have created is pretty awful, but these are just balance issues that can be fixed pretty easily.  The balance after major reworks is always bad, and no one should be surprised at this.  The way WG does this sort of stuff is the same every time - they introduce the concept, go through a few design and balance iterations on their internal test servers and on the PTS, and then when it is roughly balanced on them they release it to the general server.  They then take the immense amounts of data they get from this release to balance the biggest issues over the first month or two post release, after which they continue to do further fine tuning for around roughly six months after rework release.  At this time we have generally achieved a pretty decent level of balance.

They do this because it gets the game from concept to a post-rework balanced state in the shortest time frame.  If they kept balancing for longer before release, then at release of the rework it would be slightly better balanced (but still with balance issues that would become obviously apparent once tens of thousands of players are using the new skills post-rework), but we would have to wait far longer for the implementation.  They are being excessively cautious with subs due to being a bit gun-shy after the CV rework release issues, and that is taking a very long time indeed, but it will still have significant balance issues on release that will require a fair bit of balancing over the first couple of months.  This is also inevitable.

Secondary BB's have been hugely buffed with the skill rework.  The problem is, that sniping BB's have been buffed much more, and where the majority of BB's previously preferred to operate at mid-range, they have now been effectively turned into sniping BB's with the introduction of the Dead Eye skill.  This means that any BB that wants to move into secondary range becomes the target for the entire enemy team.  When WG fixes this to bring the mid-range BB's back to where they should be, secondary BB's will be able to operate once again, and will be better than they were pre-rework.

Overall the skill rework was very necessary, and the basic implementation (balance aside) is very good.  So long as WG can get the balance right over the next few months, the game will be much better off for this rework.

Completely wrong. The buffs announced are only part of the story.  Yes range was extended and base dispersion was increased but they nerfed the secondary commander  skills.  You used to get -60% dispersion from them and they now only provide -35%.  Net is a huge reduction in hit rate on battleships secondaries even if the do manage to get into range. It’s a classic rob Peter to pay Paul. Secondaries are completely broken right now. 
 

most German battleships are hitting ~12 to 20% of shots from secondaries.  This is a massive nerf from previous levels. 

Edited by megahugenoob
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Just now, Taylor3006 said:

I suppose I could ask you "how do you know it isn't?". They are a private company so do not file earnings reports so there is no way for us to know for sure. I suppose if they start laying off employees or closing offices, we could infer but without earnings reports, we got nada. 

I don't.  However, tThe idea of purposely not making money for your business is rather foreign to me.  Here's the thing, its OBVIOUS a lot of WG's changes and tweaks are aimed at further monetization....not "passion for their vision of the game".

The only possible reason they would actively sabotage their own income from the client perspective is if they had a passion for their vision of what the game is and money didn't matter to them.  I think this rework alone clearly demonstrates how important money is to them.  So I can only surmise that if WG isn't listening to the population, everything they are doing, is giving them their desired outcome....which I assume is dolla dolla bills.

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4 minutes ago, Taco_De_Moist said:

I don't.  However, tThe idea of purposely not making money for your business is rather foreign to me.  Here's the thing, its OBVIOUS a lot of WG's changes and tweaks are aimed at further monetization....not "passion for their vision of the game".

The only possible reason they would actively sabotage their own income from the client perspective is if they had a passion for their vision of what the game is and money didn't matter to them.  I think this rework alone clearly demonstrates how important money is to them.  So I can only surmise that if WG isn't listening to the population, everything they are doing, is giving them their desired outcome....which I assume is dolla dolla bills.

Honestly I think it is because of the culture that Wargaming was founded on. They are one generation into free market capitalism and what they are doing, is very reminiscent of the early days of it here in the West. Here it tends to be subtle and marketing is all about making the customer feel good about the purchase. We still have high pressure or deceptive sales practices like you would expect from a used car salesman, late night infomercial ads, or politicians, but the most successful companies are far different. IMHO Wargaming is just in those early stages of getting money at all costs, even if it means selling snake oil to the sick as a cure. The good news is that eventually no one trusts you or your product and to survive they change their ways or go out of business. Only time will tell I suppose. 

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59 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

Secondary BB's have been hugely buffed with the skill rework

No, actually they haven't. Range was the only buff, range is no good if they dont hit anything, which they dont. So yeah, totally wrong, well done.

1 hour ago, Moggytwo said:

The balance is awful, and the meta that more passive yet deadly BB's have created is pretty awful, but these are just balance issues that can be fixed pretty easily

CV's went a LONG way to creating this long before this skill rework came along.

Are you sure you're not WG payroll? The amount of misinformation you spill onto the NA forum is alarming, especially since you main SEA server.

Hey here's an idea, since SEA sucks so bad in comp recently, perhaps you should go try to help those guys out with your "expert" advice?

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1 hour ago, Taylor3006 said:

I see no reason to believe that the forum & Reddit posters are not representative of the player base as a whole. You can see wildly differing opinions on many subjects here so if you are assuming that the "silent majority" of players are happy with the rework as a whole, I would say there is zero reason to believe that. I do agree that there is much hyperbolic talk about the end of the game, just like there is when any significant change is made to the game. It is probably more a speed bump. I expect eventually with some tweaking, the skills will be fine and players for the most part, will be angry about something else like submarines when they show up in the game......... 

Sorry but I don't think they represent the majority of players . You just cant go off on something after 2 days honestly today was much better that yesterday . I don' t care what purple players say with all there streaming videos of backline BBs sinking every thing  . Why don't you try it see how it works for you . You watch people will figure out a counter to that .

They could have done the same videos a week ago and got the same results but it didn't fit there agenda . I don't care what they say the average player can not play a Thunderer or Conqueror at range like they do .

They have scared the crap out of every body with these videos . I'm not the biggest fan of everything WG has done but I really do like some of the changes UI and the new premium caption flexibility  .

I need some time like I said today was better then yesterday I need a few weeks to see how things shake out . That's just my opinion  .

Edited by clammboy
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39 minutes ago, clammboy said:

Sorry but I don't think they represent the majority of players .

Again, I have no reason to believe that posters are not representative of the player base as a whole. If you can think of a reason why they are not, please cite. 

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1 hour ago, clammboy said:

Sorry but I don't think they represent the majority of players . You just cant go off on something after 2 days honestly today was much better that yesterday . I don' t care what purple players say with all there streaming videos of backline BBs sinking every thing  . Why don't you try it see how it works for you . You watch people will figure out a counter to that .

They could have done the same videos a week ago and got the same results but it didn't fit there agenda . I don't care what they say the average player can not play a Thunderer or Conqueror at range like they do .

They have scared the crap out of every body with these videos . I'm not the biggest fan of everything WG has done but I really do like some of the changes UI and the new premium caption flexibility  .

I need some time like I said today was better then yesterday I need a few weeks to see how things shake out . That's just my opinion  .

lol look at the yt comment for the  update from na, ,eu. both run along the same lines of the forums. 

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2 hours ago, EricT2015 said:

Spoiler alert: they won't do anything and will cite the mythical spreadsheet 

WG has a long, proud history of ignoring player feedback when we don't tell WG what they want to hear.

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Now PR is slowly starting to get into damage control. Issues will be recognized, but nothing will be done until there is "enough player data". That should take at least a month or a patch cycle for some of the more broken stuff. Though personally I'm certain that with these tweaks happen something else will come up.

Surprisingly the time Lesta takes action will be when ships like Smaland and Thunderer, especially the latter that clutters tier X now, get removed. Mission accomplished, coal, ECXP, doubloon stockpiles emptied, time to maybe fix something.

Edited by warheart1992

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1 hour ago, clammboy said:

Sorry but I don't think they represent the majority of players . You just cant go off on something after 2 days honestly today was much better that yesterday . I don' t care what purple players say with all there streaming videos of backline BBs sinking every thing  . Why don't you try it see how it works for you . You watch people will figure out a counter to that .

They could have done the same videos a week ago and got the same results but it didn't fit there agenda . I don't care what they say the average player can not play a Thunderer or Conqueror at range like they do .

They have scared the crap out of every body with these videos . I'm not the biggest fan of everything WG has done but I really do like some of the changes UI and the new premium caption flexibility  .

I need some time like I said today was better then yesterday I need a few weeks to see how things shake out . That's just my opinion  .

As a CA main, KMS fan and a brawler, I also am not overboard (pun intended) about the changes. 

Having stated that clammboy, I believe your comments above, are the best I have read on this subject.

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I played a lot of matches today... No one complained about the rework...

None!

Now, compared to the CV rework... To this day, there is more crap about CVs then the cpt rework... 

Got to hand it to WG inventing a class people despise over 2 years later..

Edited by Navalpride33
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