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Taco_De_Moist

Secondary BB's

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Just want to start a conversation on secondary BB's.

I'm seeing a lot of posts decrying their hit rates etc.

To clear the air real quick yes, I think dead eye has definitely influenced the viability of the build with the "I need to run away to keep my skill active" meta.

1. However, when you do get the chance to brawl with your secondaries, what has your experience been?

2. What hit percentage are you expecting with your secondaries? (It has to be remembered this will inevitably vary.  It should obviously be easier to get hits on a BB rather than a DD).

3. Post rework your hit rate will be impacted by the fact your secondaries will automatically pop off without selecting a target (which obviously have significantly worse dispersion) and just wasnt a thing that happened if you had manuals pre-rework.

 

From my own experience I haven't felt they were that much worse.  I copied my stats from my last 2 games in the Mass B.

29.6% and 34% hit rate respectively.  In both cases around 45k combined alpha and fire damage from secondaries.  I mean, I frankly consider that worth the investment in the skills (in a situation you can actually, you know, use them).  I'm going to be experimenting with Germans next.  As far as the American secondary ships, were it not for the meta, I think they perform fine. Will be checking trying out the Germans more diligently soon.

image.png.2e496f335cfd0bc11c07e53627cc2fe0.png

 

image.png.a2f67d9d16557a10298b6010fe3b20ca.png

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GKF gets a bit more range, is all I noticed... they still work like they used to, sometimes good sometimes meh, but it is not anything I think I would post a RANT thread about...

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1 hour ago, Taco_De_Moist said:

Just want to start a conversation on secondary BB's.

I'm seeing a lot of posts decrying their hit rates etc.

To clear the air real quick yes, I think dead eye has definitely influenced the viability of the build with the "I need to run away to keep my skill active" meta.

1. However, when you do get the chance to brawl with your secondaries, what has your experience been?

2. What hit percentage are you expecting with your secondaries? (It has to be remembered this will inevitably vary.  It should obviously be easier to get hits on a BB rather than a DD).

3. Post rework your hit rate will be impacted by the fact your secondaries will automatically pop off without selecting a target (which obviously have significantly worse dispersion) and just wasnt a thing that happened if you had manuals pre-rework.

 

From my own experience I haven't felt they were that much worse.  I copied my stats from my last 2 games in the Mass B.

29.6% and 34% hit rate respectively.  In both cases around 45k combined alpha and fire damage from secondaries.  I mean, I frankly consider that worth the investment in the skills (in a situation you can actually, you know, use them).  I'm going to be experimenting with Germans next.  As far as the American secondary ships, were it not for the meta, I think they perform fine. Will be checking trying out the Germans more diligently soon.

image.png.2e496f335cfd0bc11c07e53627cc2fe0.png

 

image.png.a2f67d9d16557a10298b6010fe3b20ca.png

You used a ship with a built in accuracy buff.

Imagine that same ship with -35 % accuracy and thats your experience with everything else except Ohio Georgia & Massachusetts. 

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1 minute ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

You used a ship with a built in accuracy buff.

Imagine that same ship with -35 % accuracy and thats your experience with everything else except Ohio Georgia & Massachusetts. 

Couldn't have said it better myself.

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He challenge is BB sit in the back and complain know is spotting for them.

When they fire they hit anything they want to even German BB

Cruiser now cannot push.

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What I'm observing is that it feels like the ships are observing gun arcs for secondary guns more than it used to.

Also, if you select a primary target now, it doesn't ignore everything else around.  It will shoot at the primary target with every gun in range that has that target in it's gun arc, but if the primary target is not in the gun arc, it will shoot at other targets if they exist.

That alone will lower hit percentages, unless you end up one-on-one with nothing else in secondary range.

 

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Recent battles using a Mutsu with a secondary-battery build.
A mix of 1 Scenario Operation and 3 Random battles.
 

Spoiler


shot-21_01.23_19_15.37-0342.thumb.jpg.9c58dca30a499b2f246db60ade65e903.jpg
shot-21_01.23_19_15.51-0769.thumb.jpg.e7036cad16953cd6121143b1d9309e19.jpg
shot-21_01.23_19_16.20-0465.thumb.jpg.66021c597d23d3123feadf3e16c480ca.jpg
shot-21_01.23_19_16.37-0488.thumb.jpg.dfc672d95697349692bcaef9337e179c.jpg
 

Spoiler

I used two versions of skill build.
The first version used Concealment Expert.
After a Defeat, I changed that to Fire Prevention.

image_2021-01-23_192017.thumb.png.d2ac917c8de90ca1715a068dd98a3180.png
 

The above is shared for the benefit of every player.  I'm not the world's best player, so what I chose may not be what other players decide to use.
At least there is some "raw data" for people to evaluate.
Enjoy.
 

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30 minutes ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

You used a ship with a built in accuracy buff.

Imagine that same ship with -35 % accuracy and thats your experience with everything else except Ohio Georgia & Massachusetts. 

I have all the german secondary BBs as well I havent forgotten them, I will be putting their performance under a microscope too.  And also, the Germans did get a built in accuracy buff with this patch.

Edited by Taco_De_Moist

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Secondary builds with the 4 point secondary reload boost seem pretty decent, but the challenge is to get into that range with the current meta I think. That leaves the question - What to do with ships like FDG, Bismarck, Tirpitz, Massachusetts, Ohio, etc? I have a 14 pt commander on an FDG and I'm still not sure which build to use.

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19 minutes ago, Kesh_Lives said:

What I'm observing is that it feels like the ships are observing gun arcs for secondary guns more than it used to.

Also, if you select a primary target now, it doesn't ignore everything else around.  It will shoot at the primary target with every gun in range that has that target in it's gun arc, but if the primary target is not in the gun arc, it will shoot at other targets if they exist.

That alone will lower hit percentages, unless you end up one-on-one with nothing else in secondary range.

 

Yes that was a point I was traying to drive home too.  Because your secondaries 1. might pop off before you target and 2. might have both sides going.  The hit rate will inherently drop from pre rework.

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2 minutes ago, Taco_De_Moist said:

I have all the german secondary BBs as well I havent forgotten them, I will be putting their performance under a microscope too.

So do i.....

Pommern melted before I could get to a cap.

 

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1 hour ago, Taco_De_Moist said:

Saving space here

 

I only have Georgia fully built out, and you experience is similar to mine.

I play coop, but the hit percentages are about the same (damage varies on how long the toasters survive).

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1 minute ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

So do i.....

Pommern melted before I could get to a cap.

 

Which I bolded my comment about that in my OP.  I am not talking about the meta and its affect on the viability of secondary builds.  That isn't the point of this conversation.

Edited by Taco_De_Moist

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4 minutes ago, Taco_De_Moist said:

Which I bolded my comment about that in my OP.  I am not talking about the meta and its affect on the viability of secondary builds.  That isn't the point of this conversation.

Secondary builds won't be viable until late game when all the thunderers/conquer are dead.

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much the same as always. Better range, 10 to 25% hit rate depending on circumstances and opportunities, and of course the ship. This is with a hybrid survivability/close combat built. I agree, Mass is less fun since the skill rework landed, (but she is the one ship for whom some kind of nerf was long, long overdue). A pure secondary build today, is no longer viable in PVP. It is only workable in Coop. 

I ran this earlier today

image.thumb.png.3d45209103b003354606c09663d87a98.png 

image.png.0ac4025e6364721abc917c3696f89c19.png

Managing 1 secondary kill (a dd). Which may seem modest, but this build (19pts), or some variation, only taking 2 secondary skills, seems to make sufficient compromise between dps and tankiness to get by. Purist builds such as those suggested by the skill rework UI, are simply encouraging yolo suicide.

On the other hand, Tirpitz is now a beast, with a similar build, the extended range with flags out to 11.6 km is probably too much fun at t8.

I think concealment is now just too expensive to bother with for a bb.

 

edit close quarters combat is an excellent skill, promoting synergies between your tactics to get secondaries into range and your main battery dpm. Because, at the end of the day, your main battery, on average, is still going to represent the bulk of the dmg you deal during a battle.

image.png.c665e437be2b4d2ae5b52ed1611e7aa6.png

Edited by HonniSoitQuiMalYPense

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"29.6% and 34% hit rate respectively.  In both cases around 45k combined alpha and fire damage from secondaries. "

Problem with this mentality is the same reason WG is failing hard with this change. You are seeing the end result as numbers, not as how practical they are. 

 

If you run a full secondary spec BB in the new system you may get more hits merely because there is ~1km more range to hit with and the secondaries will fire in both directions and at multiple ships. 

... but!  ... is it FUNCTIONAL and PRACTICAL how they do it. 

In the new system, if a DD pops into view at 10km and makes a run directly at you to torp you at close range.... you set your secondaries upon him.... and that DD has an extremely high chance of making it to under 3km of you because the secondaries literally won't hit him. In the OLD system the DD would be chewed to pieces by secondaries before it got to being 7km away from your ship. 

In the new system, you will get lots more hits when setting the manual secondary...on big targets like BBs.... but pit them against cruisers or destroyers and they just miss most hits. Why? BBs are much slower than other ships, much bigger and easier to hit. There's much more time and surface area to get those shots in, 

In the old system, the secondaries were equally effective vs any target once you set the manual target on them.  

 

The purpose of secondaries is to fend off vs the smaller/faster ships that main guns would not do much good against when relatively close...be it because of turret rotation time or overpen issues, etc. In the old system it performed this job very well. In this new system its USELESS vs smaller/faster ships but more effective vs large ships in general. 

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4 minutes ago, 05Chopp said:

 

Yah, theyve been nerfed. Anyone that plays a large amount of secondary BBs can easily tell. I cant in good faith recommend even purchasing things like the Mass/GA/Pomm as secondary botes anymore. As primary/survivability, sure, maybe. 

edit: maybe they will rebalance/change it a bit after awhle. but currently, no thank you.

Edited by Rollingonit

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16 minutes ago, Skyfaller said:

If you run a full secondary spec BB in the new system you may get more hits merely because there is ~1km more range to hit with and the secondaries will fire in both directions and at multiple ships. 

Thats why I literally said hit rate  and didn't just talk about "how many".  i.e. you can get 100 hits and have a higher hit rate than if you had 1000 hits, it depends on how many shells you fired total.  Rate concerns accuracy, not "amount".

Edited by Taco_De_Moist

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I have never had more than 1 Close quarter expert in a game - then I had this game when secondaries are said to be "useless".  And I have been melted by them in my JB - secondaries still work imho.  2 of hte kills with secondaries were DDs and the other a CA.

World of Warships - Georgia - 197250.PNG

Georgia secondaries.PNG

Edited by CylonRed
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21 minutes ago, Skyfaller said:

The purpose of secondaries is to fend off vs the smaller/faster ships that main guns would not do much good against when relatively close...be it because of turret rotation time or overpen issues, etc. In the old system it performed this job very well. In this new system its USELESS vs smaller/faster ships but more effective vs large ships in general. 

 

 

Exactly right.  

 

It seems they forgot what the role of secondaries are.

 

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4 minutes ago, Taco_De_Moist said:

The hit rate has nothing to do with more or less hits because of increased range.  You could get 1000 secondary hits or 10.  The rate is how many hits you got divided by shells fired.  Im concerned with the rate of hits which is more important than how many hits as it deals with accuracy.

If you fired 1000 secondaries and hit with 600 you'd think the 'numbers are right' ... but the problem is, you set your manual secondaries to fire on a destroyer at 10km that was rushing in to sink you from the right side. Of those 600 you only did 5 hits on the destroyer... the rest were all hits against BBs 11km away from you at your 10 OC hugging and island which your secondaries were firing over. 

The accuracy against the SMALL SHIPS which secondaries are SUPPOSED to be EFFECTIVE against ... aren't anymore. They are only effective vs big ships... and that is royally retarded. 

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My secondary hit rate is abysmal.   I have tried in my FDG, GK and Pommern and they all stink.

People keep getting tricked by the innate "buff" the Germans supposedly got but in reality it was a bait and switch. They gave Germans an accuracy boost innate, but then they nerfed the skills your captain gets that control how accurate your guns are.

Improved Secondary Battery Aiming used to be -60% to dispersion and now its only -35%.  So germans are like 10% better innate, but lost 25% on captain skills. Net net its a huge hit to accuracy.

 

I am seeing roughly a 21-22% hit rate which is horrid.  OF this hits, not all of them are going to do damage either. Remember, your secondaries fire HE so its going to shatter a lot depending on where it hits.

 

Here is a post I made where I put up a reply showing the perfect setting for a 2ndary battleship. No cv, 1 DD, Top Tier, etc... and how underwhelming they are.

 

Couple that with the new HE spam meta from the back lines and its an impossible task.

Playing secondary ships you sacrifice everything to be able to close range and do damage. You give up extra heals, concealment, quicker turn times on repair and dcp, torpedo damage reduction, AA guns, etc... all to be a brawler and it just doesnt pencil. Its not worth it.

 

 

pom6.jpg

pom3.jpg

PomTrain.jpg

pom5.jpg

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I  am getting more hits than before, but I had ditched manual fire control a long time ago on my German BB's, for Fire Prevention. So for me, it was a slight net gain in secondary hits. But really, I haven't noticed any meaningful damage increase. And as others have pointed out, the only brawls I have been able to get into are with bots, or a few die hard German BB players like myself pushing forward. And usually being punished for it, because we are burning all the way there.

Edited by Valas1

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I've noticed a slight decrease in Bourgogne's hit rate and overall damage, but nothing drastic.  GKF, Georgia, and Massachusetts, seem to be about the same as it was before, which is to be expected, since they all have either a built-in accuracy buff of some sort.  Haven't played anything below tier VII yet, but I'm thinking those ships will actually come out ahead.  I never took manual secondaries on anything below tier VII before, since a 15% buff wasn't worth it.  But now manual secondarires give them a 35% buff, the guns automatically shoot at non-selected targets, so you can engage targets on both sides, and some of them get a bit of extra range.  I liked secondaries on Nassau, PEF, and Normandie before, and they should be even better now.

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