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LaurenBacall

New BB Commander Skills Assessment

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(This post is purely intended to help those struggling with the new commander skills and how to integrate them into BB play. I'm not asserting that I'm "right" about any of this - just trying to help and seeking community feedback. Cheers.)

I reset all my commanders, but have only spent 10 or so battles so far toying with battleship builds. I spent some time here this morning reading-up on a lot of angst, so I thought I'd offer my opinions. I'm not a fantastic player (better than 50%) but have played about 10k battles so feel I have a good sense of what works and what doesn't in WoWS. To begin, before we jump into the commander skills, I feel its important to understand how *I* play battleships and the role they fill in the game. Please, bear with me...

First, my ultimate rule is always, for every ship, "the nail that sticks out gets hammered down". There is no such thing as a secondary battery build that gets to force their play-style into a match of 24 players. If it seems to happen, in my experience, its just luck. Most of the time, a BB that tries to break the line (and I mean, the line of all 12 players across the map), gets focus-fired and sent back to port early. If they don't have a plan B, they don't last past the first 6 minutes. The teams with players that understand this principle hold the line and almost always win the match. (This applies to cruisers and DDs as well.) Doesn't matter if the line is at the caps or behind them. So, a brawler, a sniper, or a bow tank - it doesn't really matter; stick out and you'll get hammered down. This means that Dead Eye will tend to keep a line further back, but let's face it, historically, that's what modern battleship warfare evolved to - hence the Iowa class. The real fun is when the flow of the match starts to change, and that's where different playstyles start to become dominant, especially in the end-game. I'm just saying let's not pretend that Dead Eye has "fundamentally changed how everyone plays". It hasn't - its always been BBs in the back, not pushing, and that's modern battleship warfare and frankly, smart. "Bismarck was just a fantasy, Jutland, a disappointment, and Tsushima the siren call that started it all... The Americans knew better." - me

Second, stay alive. It should go without saying but if you aren't in the battle, your team is down one more ship. Guns matter. A YOLO is just - to be frank - disrespectful to your team mates and a waste of their time. Focus on what it takes to stay in the match. Its more rewarding anyways, even if you lose, and your win rate will improve. In support of this, please, please, please forget that your rear turret(s) exists - sorry, your 33% increase to damage is vastly outweighed by exposing your citadel and suffering mass damage. This is why German and French BBs really get the short-end with all that mid/rear firepower - bring it to bear and get hammered on the citadel.

Thirdly, a battleship's primary job is to be a damage sink. Damage control and management is what wins matches. A battleship turns broadside to get that rear firepower into the match? Boom! Gone. Player didn't bother to take damage-mitigation skills? Bleed, bleed, bleed. My point here is that, fundamentally, a BB player should be speccing their ship/commander knowing that they're going to be the center of attention. This means spending commander skills to that end FIRST, then thinking about their meta second. I have played literally thousands of BB battles and debated the wisdom of throwing points into BoS and Fire Prevention and nearly every time I don't, I regret it. "What's your point, Lauren?" Just don't be too obsessed with the meta. Instead, build down for damage control first and then min/max your remaining commander skills to boost your ships stats. If your secondary damage/range is high, go that meta; if your AA is great, boost there - just don't think you can do that first. Your primary firepower advantage is always the main battery - its the reason the battleship was designed in the first place.

Lastly, always have an out. Don't put yourself in a bad position to begin with. This is where (again) holding the line matters - that's a kind of out. Back-up (don't expose your side) to divert incoming fire to closer ships, repair, and re-engage. Keep an island nearby to duck behind. Stop firing to re-engage concealment (and keep them out of range). Etc. 

So, with all that in mind, some prescriptive advice. These skills are listed from top-down in my order of consideration.

Tier 1 BB Commander Skills:

  • Preventive Maintenance - usually, my first pick. Losing a main battery turret is like losing half of your ship. No gun = no damage. Plus, bonus to protecting other modules. This is especially critical on ships like the Jean Bart.
  • Emergency Repair Specialist - my second tier 1 pick. 3% decrease in cooldown can add up over 20 minutes, and may be critical in a pinch.
  • Consumable Specialist - only take it if your ship meets two (or more) of the criteria.
  • Optional: Pyrotechnician - 1% increase is "meh" IMO. This really only benefits ships with high rates of fire, or lots of secondaries, so not really a good bow-tank BB skill, even for British BBs.
  • Optional: Gun Feeder - It's rare that I change ammo types in a BB. It's just too risky to switch to HE if/when the target then decides to turn broadside. And if I do, I like to empty the barrels the old-fashioned way first.
  • Optional: Incoming Fire Alert - In most scenarios, there's just not enough time to get a BB to maneuver out of danger without exposing broadside and/or lagging turret travers (which means lower damage output). Maybe on a British BB equipped with a Propulsion Modification.

Tier 2 BB Commander Skills:

  • Grease the Gears - usually, my second pick. If you can't get a gun on-target, you are effectively disarmed.
  • Inertia Fuse for HE - as I almost always fire AP exclusively, this isn't valuable unless in a British battleship (where HE is preferred at longer ranges.)
  • AA Gunner - purely a meta-build choice.
  • Consumable Enhancements - only if your ship has one of the listed consumables.
  • Optional: Vigilance - A good fallback for any BB, especially bow-tanking a line where there's a DD spamming torps at you.
  • Optional: Priority Target - I know this will be controversial, but this skill is (and always has been) a waste for a BB, IMO. You're as long (and in some cases as tall as) a sky-scraper. They all know where you are. If you stick out, they will all be shooting at you. And if/when you do know how many are pointing at you, what can you do about it? Even at 1 point, there is/was almost always something better to spend it on - even an extra fighter. Stay alive. Don't stick out.

Tier 3 Commander Skills:

  • Basics of Survivability - see my third point about damage control. Always my third BB commander skill pick. Always.
  • Long-Ranged Secondary Battery Shells - for the brawler meta.
  • Adrenaline Rush - always take it, if possible, since its a flat DPM increase as you take damage (and as a BB, you will always take damage.)
  • Expert AA Marksman - for the AA meta.
  • Optional: Enhanced Anti-Torpedo Protection - This one looks like it could be handy, but not for three skill points, IMO.
  • Optional: Super-Heavy AP Shells - Bwhwhahahahaaa! Did we make you pick it? Sucker! 5% DPM increase in exchange for BIG fire and flooding penalties. Again, see my perspective above regarding damage control. Also, keep in mind that if you have any other signals, equipment, skills, etc. that reduce fire/flooding, you are effectively wiping those out. And this game favors min/maxing, not balancing. Just., Don't. Fall. For. It.

Tier 4 Commander Skills:

  • Fire Prevention Expert - always. Gotta reduce the number of fire zones. For the children, please.
  • Emergency Repair Specialist - This one is mandatory for US and Russian BBs, IMO. The US for the additional bonus to DCP time (coupled with the DCP premium equipment enhancement), and the extra charges for both DCP and RP for the Russians. Other nationalities will also benefit, but for 4 points, you may want to skip it.
  • Dead Eye - Ahhhh, the poster child of complaints for 0.10.0. IMO, this one is geared for BBs that have low-detection and/or quicker reload times. Also, keep in mind that a 10% decrease to dispersion requires you to stay at longer ranges where your guns are - wait for it! - less accurate to begin with. Costs 4 points. Is it worth it? Meh.
  • Concealment Expert - Personally, improved concealment is always good, for every ship. If you can't be seen, you can't be hit (usually). However, in the 4-point skill slot for BB, its in competition with several other options.
  • Improved Secondary Battery Aiming - brawler meta.
  • Close Quarters Combat - brawler meta.

So, some practical application - how have I used these? Here are my initial battleship builds - all subject to change as I learn more about how the skill mechanics actually influence dynamics. Please note that I always spend the first 10 points getting to tier 4, then work my way back up the tiers. Of course, to each his/her own. Also, keep in mind that many of these new skills favor selection of upgrades to min/max their abilities further.

Bow tank (properly angled) configuration - the default build:

  • 1 - Preventive Maintenance
  • 2 - Grease the Gears
  • 3 - Basics of Survivability
  • 4 - Fire Prevention Expert
  • 4 - Emergency Repair Specialist OR Concealment Expert
  • 3 - Adrenaline Rush
  • 3 - Vigilance
  • 1 - Emergency Repair Specialist

Bow tank (properly angled) AA configuration:

  • 1 - Preventive Maintenance
  • 2 - Grease the Gears
  • 3 - Basics of Survivability
  • 4 - Fire Prevention Expert
  • 4 - Emergency Repair Specialist OR Concealment Expert
  • 3 - Expert AA Marksman
  • 2 - AA Gunner
  • 2 points left over

Brawler (late-game, not YOLO):

  • 1 - Pyrotechnician
  • 2 - Adrenaline Rush
  • 3 - Basics of Survivability
  • 4 - Fire Prevention Expert
  • 4 - Improved Secondary Battery Aiming
  • 4 - Close Quarters Combat
  • 3 - Long-Range Secondary Battery Shells

British HE Sniper (properly angled) configuration:

  • 1 - Pyrotechnician
  • 2 - Inertia Fuse for HE
  • 3 - Basics of Survivability
  • 4 - Fire Prevention Expert
  • 4 - Concealment Expert
  • 3 - Adrenaline Rush
  • 3 - Expert AA Marksman
  • 1 - Incoming Fire Alert

Again, these are just my builds - your mileage/preferences may vary. I'm curious what other think, so please reply to thread.

Final Note: I don't think WG's recommendations for each ship actually make a lot (or any) sense to me? Is it just me?

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All well and good, a +1 for that; but at the same time you’ve emphasized why I believe many players dislike Randoms and other competitive modes...

”Waiting until the enemy makes (a) mistake(s) is boring as hell,”

...they just want to fight.

One is not better, or worse, than the other, they are just two different ways players enjoy the game.

Some enjoy a chess-like dance before moving in, other’s, as I said, just want to fight.

I will also point out one related point; emphasizing things as you have, which is, I stress; neither right or wrong; is going to tend to stabilize builds, eventually reaching a ‘best build,’ and effectively defeating WG’s stated purpose of diversification of builds.

In that sense; the skill rework was pointless effort; much like the last major rework, outside an increase in numbers and irritation level, has slowly become pointless.

Once again, good write up.

Edited by Estimated_Prophet

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:cap_popcorn:

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18 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

I will also point out one related point; emphasizing things as you have, which is, I stress; neither right or wrong; is going to tend to stabilize builds, eventually reaching a ‘best build,’ and effectively defeating WG’s stated purpose of diversification of builds.

Then WGing is fooling themselves. As the game currently is, players will always attempt to optimize based on the options provided, and there will always be - by definition - 'best builds'. If they want to qualitatively address the issue, then they need to provide players with more direct feedback on their performance. Specifically, a complete breakdown of the impacts of every shot fired and every shell/torpedo received, damage over time, etc. (Refer to World of Warcraft, for instance.) Without that, players are making best guesses, mainly informed by their perceptions, superstitions, hear-say, and beliefs, which will always lead to 'beat builds'. In my case, I clearly outline how I play above to help those struggling with the choices better wrap their head around which skills provide more general utility verses the ones that (IMO) don't. Am I right? Can't say for sure, because the data isn't available.

But that's how Wargaming like it, and I can't fault them. After all, we keep playing, right?

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2 minutes ago, LaurenBacall said:

But that's how Wargaming like it, and I can't fault them. After all, we keep playing, right?

Pretty much. :Smile_sceptic:

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P.S. It goes without saying that the biggest decider in wins/losses is the match-maker. Its clear MM attempts to "squeeze" us towards 50% win rate, which means matches aren't fair. But then, nothing in life is, and again isn't this half the fun? :D 

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THANKS a Million for sharing you excellent and well thought out reasoning for the New Captain Skills for BB's.    OUTSTANDING JOB!

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1 hour ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

One is not better, or worse, than the other, they are just two different ways players enjoy the game.

Some enjoy a chess-like dance before moving in, other’s, as I said, just want to fight.

It's not a "chess-like dance" vs "just want to fight".  It's playing to win vs playing to shoot up stuff.  And IMO, one (i.e. playing to win) *IS* better than the other.

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1 hour ago, LaurenBacall said:

P.S. It goes without saying that the biggest decider in wins/losses is the match-maker. Its clear MM attempts to "squeeze" us towards 50% win rate, which means matches aren't fair. But then, nothing in life is, and again isn't this half the fun? :D 

If they're trying to push everyone towards a 50% WR, they're not doing a very good job of it.  *IF* that was their goal, they'd be using a form of SBMM that balanced the teams in terms of overall skill.  Furthermore, claiming that pushing everyone towards a 50% WR isn't unfair in my book.  You first have to define what you mean by "fair" and more on from there.  People have a tendency to throw out terms like "fair" and assume that everyone or a great majority agrees with their definition, which I feel pretty safe in saying that they do not.

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3 hours ago, LaurenBacall said:

Dead Eye - Ahhhh, the poster child of complaints for 0.10.0. IMO, this one is geared for BBs that have low-detection and/or quicker reload times. Also, keep in mind that a 10% decrease to dispersion requires you to stay at longer ranges where your guns are - wait for it! - less accurate to begin with. Costs 4 points. Is it worth it? Meh.

You can call this skill "Meh" all you like it isn't going to stop people from taking it and persisting this boring meta. 

Edited by Taco_De_Moist
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47 minutes ago, Crucis said:

It's not a "chess-like dance" vs "just want to fight".  It's playing to win vs playing to shoot up stuff.  And IMO, one (i.e. playing to win) *IS* better than the other.

The thing is I do play to win; though it seems obvious not in the same manner as you.

Admittedly, I’m not a patient person; I consider the dance around hoping the Reds make a mistake first, way of doing so dull in the extreme.

Conversely, I also don’t believe in the (rumored?) RU server way of doing things, which seems to be everyone charge and brawl.

I may be ham fisted, but I’m not that unsubtle.

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8 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

The thing is I do play to win; though it seems obvious not in the same manner as you.

Admittedly, I’m not a patient person; I consider the dance around hoping the Reds make a mistake first, way of doing so dull in the extreme.

Conversely, I also don’t believe in the (rumored?) RU server way of doing things, which seems to be everyone charge and brawl.

I may be ham fisted, but I’m not that unsubtle.

The problem I have here is that if the more careful players are constantly massacring you, then you're not playing to win as much as you're trying to tell yourself.   Someone who's trying to win tries to adapt to what the other player is doing.  But if you're doing just leads to loss after loss and you refuse to change and adapt, then you're not really playing to win.  You're playing the way you want to play, results be damned.

Anyways, have a nice day, Prophet.

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Hi @LaurenBacall, first of all thanks for contributing.

Some comentaries on the builds you suggest:

- I'm a bit baffled by your suggestion of Pyrotech and IFHE on HE snipers, imo Pyrotech 1% is absolutly meanigless when considering BB levels of fire chance. Any other skill would be more useful. Why IFHE? Why nerf so horribly your awesome fire chance? What threshold do you need it for? Does it allows you to cit a lot of stuff with HE?

- IMO PT is a great skill in any ship, it is a source of information and at least in my experience it translates in impreved chances of survival. It precisely helps you to adjust your level of aggresion to balance being a meaningful contributor vs being "the nail that sticks out".

- if you focus your gameplay on survival, CE is a must, and I would pick PT along too.

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As is rightly pointed out above, perhaps I don’t play to win as much as I think.

At the same time, I hardly get constantly massacred, nor fail to adapt to what the Reds are doing.

If I were that clueless, my wr would be even worse than it is.

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Interesting read...thank you.

One small point:

I never used to use Gun Feeder until Wednesday and now find myself using it on Jean Bart & Thundererer - gotten a few fires because of it which was useful  to create DOT & in the weekly quest.   Not sure I would keep it though if these builds had to be permanent.

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I like dead eye, but for a single reason, being Montana, otherwise it is terrible for the game. About a year and a half ago Montana had the regular dispersion mod that also incorporated range, along with the slot dispersion module. This was very good on the Montana and was a good perk of the American high tier battleships. Then they removed the dispersion aspect from the 3rd slot upgrade and Montana was hit hard. With dead eye in the game, coupling with Montana's concealment reaching 14k, Montana retains the tankiness that most battleships had to give up for this skill, and gets its accuracy back. This made Montana so much more fun for me, even with my regular play style. Of course, this is the only battleship I appreciate it with, ships like Vermont, where it has 1.95 sigma, or ships like Slava or Thunderer love this change, and it is terrible for everyone else. It is also a bit ridiculous on Yammy, but Yammy needs something going for it. Slava basically shooting a single shell at enemy ships is ridiculous, there was a reason it was nerfed, and kremlin getting Slava dispersion with its 18s, and broken everything else is just something that cannot happen. Deadeye has saved ships like yammy and Montana for me, but it is so much worse fighting against broken pieces of crap like Slava, Kremlin, and Thunderer now.

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2 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

- I'm a bit baffled by your suggestion of Pyrotech and IFHE on HE snipers, imo Pyrotech 1% is absolutly meanigless when considering BB levels of fire chance. Any other skill would be more useful. Why IFHE? Why nerf so horribly your awesome fire chance? What threshold do you need it for? Does it allows you to cit a lot of stuff with HE?.

Just trying to make an interesting HE build. British BBs don't have the best AP to begin with, and their rate of fire (like every BB) is so slow that fire % isn't really "a thing" with these ships in my experience. Pyro is a slight boost, but you're correct, there are other 1 point skills that could be just as effective.

2 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

- IMO PT is a great skill in any ship, it is a source of information and at least in my experience it translates in impreved chances of survival. It precisely helps you to adjust your level of aggresion to balance being a meaningful contributor vs being "the nail that sticks out".

True, but paying routine attention to the mini-map is (almost) just as good. If you aren't the closest BB, they probably won't be focused on you, and if you aren't and they're still focusing you, you'll know it and there's not a ton you can do about it anyways - at least not right away. I used to take PT every time but found that for a BB its just not as valuable as the minimap in assessing my position and risk.

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29 minutes ago, LaurenBacall said:

True, but paying routine attention to the mini-map is (almost) just as good. If you aren't the closest BB, they probably won't be focused on you, and if you aren't and they're still focusing you, you'll know it and there's not a ton you can do about it anyways - at least not right away. I used to take PT every time but found that for a BB its just not as valuable as the minimap in assessing my position and risk.

the point I like about PT it gives you info that is not really visible in the mini map. It tells you about potential menaces about to reveal which are the most dangerous imo, for example a sneaky cruiser behind an island or in concealment waiting for you to push deeper, or maybe a BB targeting your broadside from across the map, or the all too common "torpedo wink". For me it is a window into the future that has constantly saved me a lot of trouble, that's why they increased the price... that's the most I resent from the rework:fish_glass: 

Edited by ArIskandir
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9 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

the point I like about PT it gives you info that is not really visible in the mini map. It tells you about potential menaces about to reveal which are the most dangerous imo, for example a sneaky cruiser behind an island or in concealment waiting for you to push deeper, or maybe a BB targeting your broadside from across the map, or the all too common "torpedo wink". For me it is a window into the future that has constantly saved me a lot of trouble, that's why they increased the price... that's the most I resent from the rework:fish_glass: 

There are those unicum players that can get by without it. They can glance at the mini-map and determine their level of threat (although even they must guess wrong sometimes). For the rest of the unwashed masses, it is a very valuable tool. Incoming Fire Alert is probably warning you too late (especially on a BB) and still doesn't tell you how many salvos are inbound. You're angled to that guy in front of you who is shooting back at you. Knowing that 2 or 3 others are shooting you and they may have flank shots is kinda good to know.

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14 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

I will also point out one related point; emphasizing things as you have, which is, I stress; neither right or wrong; is going to tend to stabilize builds, eventually reaching a ‘best build,’ and effectively defeating WG’s stated purpose of diversification of builds.

In that sense; the skill rework was pointless effort; much like the last major rework, outside an increase in numbers and irritation level, has slowly become pointless.

This has always, and will always be the problem. No matter how many skills you give people there will ALWAYS be an optimal build and people will find it therby cancelling all the 'effort' WG has put in.

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15 hours ago, LaurenBacall said:

Inertia Fuse for HE - as I almost always fire AP exclusively, this isn't valuable unless in a British battleship (where HE is preferred at longer ranges.)

This is NOT a skill for British BBs.  It halves your fire chance and you add very few plates to your "can HE penetrate list".  British main battery HE pen is already 1/4th of diameter.

No, this skill is for some secondary specced BBs.  For example, it allows German 128mm guns to HE pen 32mm, BB level, plating.

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5 hours ago, hexeris said:

This has always, and will always be the problem. No matter how many skills you give people there will ALWAYS be an optimal build and people will find it therby cancelling all the 'effort' WG has put in.

Not sure that is true anymore & also not sure the mass amount of people who don't go to reddit or this forum did  that  before this rework.

Even if, there already was a great divide over the 1 point skills such as "do I really need to know how many ships are shooting at me?"

From what I'm seeing, I suggest that "I'm  not sure that's a good idea"  debate is going up to 4 point -  see this thread.

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On 1/23/2021 at 2:47 PM, ArIskandir said:

I'm a bit baffled by your suggestion of Pyrotech and IFHE on HE snipers, imo Pyrotech 1% is absolutly meanigless when considering BB levels of fire chance. Any other skill would be more useful. Why IFHE? Why nerf so horribly your awesome fire chance? What threshold do you need it for? Does it allows you to cit a lot of stuff with HE?

No battleship gets consistent use out of increased HE penetration on the main guns outside of a few special cases that don't warrant building around as said here. 

On 1/24/2021 at 1:39 AM, Helstrem said:

This is NOT a skill for British BBs.  It halves your fire chance and you add very few plates to your "can HE penetrate list".  British main battery HE pen is already 1/4th of diameter.

No, this skill is for some secondary specced BBs.  For example, it allows German 128mm guns to HE pen 32mm, BB level, plating.

You don't need IFHE for German 128s,they already pen the 32mm, you take it for the 105s so they can pen 32mm. So Bismarck, Scharnhorst, Odin, Fdg. Pommern and I think PeF. 

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