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XVirtusX

Lower Tier Games Are not fun

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So, I kinda overlooked the campaign "Five Epochs of Navy", so I needed a lower tier ship (2-4) to complete the first set of missions. So I bought a Courbet (Tier IV french BB) and started. I just didn't remember how not fun lower tiers are. I guess 2/3 of the games you have TWO CVS. At least one CV is guaranteed. It is practically impossible to have a game without at least one CV. Some games, 2/3 of both teams are filled with bots, that's why lower tiers are filled with stat paddlers and seal clubbers. Almost all games end in a massacre, because MM doesn't take into account if a team is filled with 10k+ games seal clubbers and the other is filled with newer players. Man, it is really crazy. You can get some krakens easily just killing the bots and baby seals.

 

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4 minutes ago, XVirtusX said:

So, I kinda overlooked the campaign "Five Epochs of Navy", so I needed a lower tier ship (2-4) to complete the first set of missions.

You can do it in co-op, and if you grab a low-tier cruiser or destroyer that can make it a lot faster. CO-op CV is almost harmless.

Oddly enough, the last low-tier Random battle I went in was just this weekend, to get the Taranto out of the way and go up to the Giussano... and that was all humans on both sides.

2 carriers on each side and a Rhein buzzed like a pestilent wasp around my cruiser. The CV wasn't the problem - it was his friendly battleships, which were not sufficiently engaged by mine, that eventually did me in. The major issue was team play.

As far as the baby seals are concerned, they're in a separate MM until they hit 200 battles or Tier 5 (whichever comes first).

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2 hours ago, XVirtusX said:

So, I kinda overlooked the campaign "Five Epochs of Navy", so I needed a lower tier ship (2-4) to complete the first set of missions. So I bought a Courbet (Tier IV french BB) and started. I just didn't remember how not fun lower tiers are. I guess 2/3 of the games you have TWO CVS. At least one CV is guaranteed. It is practically impossible to have a game without at least one CV. Some games, 2/3 of both teams are filled with bots, that's why lower tiers are filled with stat paddlers and seal clubbers. Almost all games end in a massacre, because MM doesn't take into account if a team is filled with 10k+ games seal clubbers and the other is filled with newer players. Man, it is really crazy. You can get some krakens easily just killing the bots and baby seals.

 

If you want to avoid CVs in tier 2-4 battles, play tier 2.  Simple as that.

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WG doesn't care about lower tiers for  the last few years, here's to what all this has led.

They can't be monetized the same way as higher ones can. Why create a WWI era premium to sell for 10-15$ when you can spend a similar amount of time to model a 60$ one? I think Charleston was the most recent one and even that is just a St. Louis.

The even tiered CVs mean tier IV CVs spend a disproportionately long time in protected MM of tier IV-V, with all the lack of AA this time period brings.

Newbies are in protected mode for their first few hundred battles, fighting only players with similar number or battles or bots. So these are already left out of proper MM pool.

Getting to tier V has become ridiculously easy with all the flags, camouflages, premium. Many players grinding ships don't spend much time.

Most of the above have led to tier  III-IV turning from a chill haven of relaxed gameplay into a tier spread filled with WG bots, CVs that have to spend alot of time there, and clubbers.

And in my opinion all this is slowly seeping to tier V as well. Who knows, maybe in a year tier V will be the new tier IV.

 

Edited by warheart1992

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28 minutes ago, XVirtusX said:

Almost all games end in a massacre, because MM doesn't take into account if a team is filled with 10k+ games seal clubbers and the other is filled with newer players.

it astounds me how my experience differs so much from players like yourself.  fist of all. 10k+ games does not make mean the player is good.

The games down at low tiers are slower, yes there is a mix of talent, but the ships themselves level the playing field. the games I have been swing widely, and end close, which is kinda fun. but they take a long time to complete. especially with how many standard battles there are. also, snow flakes, drive players like myself down to lower tiers. I absolutely luv that WG created the XP hurdle. I am happy to knock flakes in randoms, cuz i dreaded the coop option. 

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29 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

You can do it in co-op, and if you grab a low-tier cruiser or destroyer that can make it a lot faster. CO-op CV is almost harmless.

^^^ This.

Never more than one CV per side, and the red bot carriers are hysterically funny clown cars.

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2 minutes ago, Balon_Greyjoy said:

^^^ This.

Never more than one CV per side, and the red bot carriers are hysterically funny clown cars.

Low tier COOP games are a blast, but i feel even worse playing low tier coop games. Taking Svelt out and getting 100k+ damage a game is mean.

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24 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

CVs that have to spend a lot of time there,

They finally clued to this and massively reduced the XP hurdle needed to get to Tier 6, from 68K to 40K, during the German CV release event. Long overdue IMHO, but very welcome.

The thing I have to make myself remember about any low-tier battle in any mode is that some of these players only barely have the regulation number of battles to get out of protected MM (and not even that if they got to Tier 5 first), and mistakes like team-torping, flat-out mispositioning and simply not being familiar with the right thing to do are far more common. You're going to get teams that play like noobs and collapse like noobs because they ARE noobs and they simply haven't had a chance to become truly competent yet.

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37 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

They finally clued to this and massively reduced the XP hurdle needed to get to Tier 6, from 68K to 40K, during the German CV release event. Long overdue IMHO, but very welcome.

The thing I have to make myself remember about any low-tier battle in any mode is that some of these players only barely have the regulation number of battles to get out of protected MM (and not even that if they got to Tier 5 first), and mistakes like team-torping, flat-out mispositioning and simply not being familiar with the right thing to do are far more common. You're going to get teams that play like noobs and collapse like noobs because they ARE noobs and they simply haven't had a chance to become truly competent yet.

And, we want and ELO discussion in another thread...........   Hahahaha    We have a lot of Barney level players because they farm extensively.

In my experience with the lower tier game play for this campaign, I never went out of COOP and the matches I treated "fairly" and with deference to new players......  But, that is an old fashioned concept I guess anymore.  

And, we wonder why we can't grow the game bigger........  All I heard at those lower tiers were new players getting burnt out well before a level where the real stupidity starts.........  Not good.

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I find the lack of knowledge on how to play the basics far more frustrating than anything else in the low tiers by a very large margin.

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1 hour ago, warheart1992 said:

WG doesn't care about lower tiers for  the last few years, here's to what all this has led.

They can't be monetized the same way as higher ones can. Why create a WWI era premium to sell for 10-15$ when you can spend a similar amount of time to model a 60$ one? I think Charleston was the most recent one and even that is just a St. Louis.

You forgot about “Viribus, You're Nutless.”

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1 minute ago, MannyD_of_The_Sea said:

You forgot about “Viribus, You're Nutless.”

You mean Viribus, "imma make a  quick buck, imma pop ya a tier up" Unitis? :Smile_trollface:

 

 

 

 

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It's a weird mix at those tiers, especially at tier 4, as you get good/middle/inexperienced players with bots, so you never know what will happen or what you are facing. I do think the protected matchmaking for new players is a good idea.

At least you don't typically get static game play as you start off closer, the maps are smaller, a lot of new players just don't play conservatively, any bots also charge in, most ships don't have much gun range and even if they do you can't hit reliably. Two people I would team up with some time ago liked tier 4 the most because they said, in their opinion, it has the most interesting and dynamic gameplay, and they didn't like the more static gameplay at higher tiers.

The constant buzzing of carrier planes does get tiresome, mostly because (as warheart stated) the ships just don't have enough AA to do anything to the squadrons. If it were only one CV per side down there it would be only a small and manageable problem, 2 per side is a different story.

It would be nice if more were done for lower tiers, as I really like a few of the ships at tier 4.

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2 hours ago, XVirtusX said:

So, I kinda overlooked the campaign "Five Epochs of Navy", so I needed a lower tier ship (2-4) to complete the first set of missions. So I bought a Courbet (Tier IV french BB) and started. I just didn't remember how cancerous lower tiers are. I guess 2/3 of the games you have TWO CVS. At least one CV is guaranteed. It is practically impossible to have a game without at least one CV. Some games, 2/3 of both teams are filled with bots, that's why lower tiers are filled with stat paddlers and seal clubbers. Almost all games end in a massacre, because MM doesn't take into account if a team is filled with 10k+ games seal clubbers and the other is filled with newer players. Man, it is really crazy. You can get some krakens easily just killing the bots and baby seals.

It's built like that. The whole thing is 100% intentional. Resistance is futile.

First, low tiers make WG very little money. They want to incentivize those $80 T8 and $200 T10 premiums.

Second, it's all still about the CV Rebork. Somebody's job, or at least their KPI bonus, depends on CV numbers.

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Deal with it. I'll be doing the same when get around to doing the Epoch campaign.

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Low Tier Co-op (IV and below), DDs and CLs rule there.

Battleships there are too slow, secondaries too awful unless you're the very slow Oklahoma.  BB main and secondary batteries are also trash.  Mains are trash in accuracy and Secondaries have baby t-rex arms for range.  Wyoming sucks so bad that she can't hit the broadside of a barn if she stood next to it.  There was a campaign on during the USN BB Event that allowed low tier missions.  I remember struggling with that even in Co-op because the DD & CL players were fast and killed everything before I got there.

- I broke out "OP" III Konig Albert.  Too slow, her "OP" secondaries were 100% useless if you can't get to brawl at any time because DD & CL players killed everything first.

- I even broke out "OP" Imperator Nikolai I in Tier IV.  Again, too slow, and the reload is awful.  I watched a player DD single handedly kill all 4 targets in our part of the map we spawned at, in turn, as they appeared.  I was lucky to get something like a handful of main battery hits at max range.  In the confines of Random Battles where fights go on long, matches possibly taking 15 or the full 20 minutes, Imp.Nik. is OP.  But in 3-5 minute Co-op games, she's too slow to even be useful.  Even her markedly good marksmanship for a Tier IV BB is pointless because the games are too quick and she's taking too many long range potshots.

 

It got frustrating, so I switched to better Co-op ships to take care of missions:  DDs & CLs for Low Tier.

- DDs like Isokaze and most of all, CLEMSON.

- Tier IV CLs like Phoenix, but Kuma was fantastic.  Fast, has torpedoes, guns to wreck bot DDs you encounter, plenty of torpedo power for heavier targets, and FUN.

 

Meanwhile in Low Tier Battleships, you watch the paint dry while all the combat is taking place out of your max range.

 

It gets better for Battleships as the tiers climb.  DDs rule the roost in Co-op for most the tiers until you start seeing faster, better Battleships.

 

Co-op combat tends to be so quick that even CVs struggle to score decently.  CVs need time to do their damage and in 3-5 minute Co-op games, they struggle to get dmg in to reliably stand atop a match's rankings.  You can hop in another ship and get 2, 3, 4 times or more damage compared to what you did as a CV for the same amount of time.  Because combat is so short in Co-op, speed is paramount.  You don't need FR DD speed, Engine Boosting FR Cruiser speed.  You just need speed to be relevant, otherwise you watch everyone else kill everything while you're reduced to taking shots at max range for low hit % and low damage.

3 hours ago, warheart1992 said:

You mean Viribus, "imma make a  quick buck, imma pop ya a tier up" Unitis? :Smile_trollface:

Man, that thing belongs in Tier IV.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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2 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Low Tier Co-op (IV and below), DDs and CLs rule there.

Yep not that anyone claimed T2-4 was balanced but DDs are down right UBER OP at T2  a bit less OP at T3.  Mostly its down to torpedo damage being so incredibly high in comparison to HP pools .  Like a Wickes with upgraded torps has 4 launchers where each launcher can  just about take out a cruiser. Combined with Cruisers having few guns, terrible accuracy and reload.  What starts changing at T3 is that cruisers also bring torpedoes and some better HP and better guns.  By T4 you do have ultimate clubber in Clemson who also starts to have decent guns.  But by T4 cruisers have superior health pools and guns.   

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4 minutes ago, eviltane said:

Yep not that anyone claimed T2-4 was balanced but DDs are down right UBER OP at T2  a bit less OP at T3.  Mostly its down to torpedo damage being so incredibly high in comparison to HP pools .  Like a Wickes with upgraded torps has 4 launchers where each launcher can  just about take out a cruiser. Combined with Cruisers having few guns, terrible accuracy and reload.  What starts changing at T3 is that cruisers also bring torpedoes and some better HP and better guns.  By T4 you do have ultimate clubber in Clemson who also starts to have decent guns.  But by T4 cruisers have superior health pools and guns.   

There's also the reloads for DD torpedoes.  IMO it's part of Low Tiers being training grounds of sorts.  Gotta practice torpedo use and that gets hard to do if you have 2 minute torp reloads.

II Umikaze 2x2 torps, 24 seconds reload

III Wakatake 2x2 torps, 39 seconds reload

IV Isokaze 3x2 torps, 57 seconds

V Mutsuki 2x3 torps, 73 seconds

On and on, gets longer as you climb the tiers.

 

Clemson's an absolute monster in PVE with her double torps per side and a very reasonable reload.

IV Clemson 4x3 torps, 66 seconds reload.  On top of that, her guns are more responsive than Isokaze's almost useless guns.

 

Low Tier CLs with torps do make for competition, I agree.

IV Kuma, another ship I mentioned, has 140mm x7 to smash bot DDs she encounters.  She goes about 34kts which for the tier with almost all BBs below 21kts, that is blazing fast.  She has 4x2 torpedoes backing that up on 42 seconds reload.

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8 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

There's also the reloads for DD torpedoes.  IMO it's part of Low Tiers being training grounds of sorts.  Gotta practice torpedo use and that gets hard to do if you have 2 minute torp reloads.

II Umikaze 2x2 torps, 24 seconds reload

III Wakatake 2x2 torps, 39 seconds reload

IV Isokaze 3x2 torps, 57 seconds

V Mutsuki 2x3 torps, 73 seconds

On and on, gets longer as you climb the tiers.

 

Clemson's an absolute monster in PVE with her double torps per side and a very reasonable reload.

IV Clemson 4x3 torps, 66 seconds reload.  On top of that, her guns are more responsive than Isokaze's almost useless guns.

 

Low Tier CLs with torps do make for competition, I agree.

IV Kuma, another ship I mentioned, has 140mm x7 to smash bot DDs she encounters.  She goes about 34kts which for the tier with almost all BBs below 21kts, that is blazing fast.  She has 4x2 torpedoes backing that up on 42 seconds reload.

Hehehe yeah.  I just recently rolled a Smurf account to farm oil in Naval battles for our new clan.  That account got a "Smith"  T2 DD 4x1 launchers and 11 second reload.  I only took it out a couple of times but you literally just drive in a circle inside your smoke spamming 1 torp every couple of seconds lol. 

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Meanwhile in Low Tier Battleships, you watch the paint dry while all the combat is taking place out of your max range.

Two exceptions, with caveats of course: Myogi and Ishizuchi. Both are fast, as fast as some of the same tier 4 cruisers, and Myogi has a gun range (18.6km!) that some tier 7 battleships wish they had...

...however Myogi only has 6 guns, with 4 in the back of the ship, so that makes hitting targets while trying to push in a problem, and then there is the wonky dispersion despite a 2.0 sigma which makes hitting with only 6 guns, well, literally hit or miss:Smile_facepalm:

Ishizuchi has about a 15.6km gun range, not great but her faster loading 10 guns (the middle turret has a narrower firing angle the closer in for some reason) with really good HE rounds means she is workable when she gets in close enough. With a 27.5 knot speed she at least has a chance to get into the action more frequently.

1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Clemson's an absolute monster in PVE with her double torps per side and a very reasonable reload.

IV Clemson 4x3 torps, 66 seconds reload.  On top of that, her guns are more responsive than Isokaze's almost useless guns.

Both are good but specifically for PVE I think Clemson is better too. I actually kept the lower end torpedoes, 1/2 km less range but a MUCH faster reload.

1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

IV Kuma, another ship I mentioned, has 140mm x7 to smash bot DDs she encounters.  She goes about 34kts which for the tier with almost all BBs below 21kts, that is blazing fast.  She has 4x2 torpedoes backing that up on 42 seconds reload.

My vote for best cruiser at tier 4, in PVE or PVP :cap_like:

1 hour ago, eviltane said:

Hehehe yeah.  I just recently rolled a Smurf account to farm oil in Naval battles for our new clan.  That account got a "Smith"  T2 DD 4x1 launchers and 11 second reload.  I only took it out a couple of times but you literally just drive in a circle inside your smoke spamming 1 torp every couple of seconds lol. 

The Smith is just silly fun, but you have to get in close and stay there, which in low tier PVE isn't much of a problem.

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gameplay wise i find low tiers to be much better than higher tiers:

*HE spammers are not realy a problem

* BBs have low range and accuracy so they are forced to figh from close range instead of sniping from the other side of the map 

*  there are no dds that can drop huge  torpedo walls from concealment

* no radar and overall good concealment of the ships in lower tiers aloud for flanking and surprise manuvers

 

the only 2 things that keep me from playing there is the idiotic double cv fighting ships with little to no AA and the fact one cant completle most missions on ships t4 and below.

 

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Impossible. According to secret soviet spreadshit, you are having a lot of fun.

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