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Markk9

Musashi AA Question

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Will it make a difference if a swap GFSCM2 for AAM2? I really don't need the extra range, but I need all the help I can with AA.

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No.  Don't try buffing Musashi's Tier 5.5 AA.  It is a waste of an upgrade slot.  Use the upgrades to buff her strengths.

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5 minutes ago, Markk9 said:

Will it make a difference if a swap GFSCM2 for AAM2? I really don't need the extra range, but I need all the help I can with AA.

All AA is useless.  Don't even bother with the AA ships.

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15 minutes ago, Sventex said:

All AA is useless.  Don't even bother with the AA ships.

Only for those who define "useful" and "immune" as synonymous.  Musashi's AA is truly dreadful and the next best thing to useless, but not all AA is so.

Perhaps you find it useless because you've decided it is useless and thus don't bother with it, self fulfilling your prophecy. 

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16 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

Only for those who define "useful" and "immune" as synonymous.  Musashi's AA is truly dreadful and the next best thing to useless, but not all AA is so.

Perhaps you find it useless because you've decided it is useless and thus don't bother with it, self fulfilling your prophecy. 

AA is the least useful tool in your arsenal.  Don't even bother upgrading the AA on AA ships, it is a losing proposition.

I used to spec AA and upgrade AA on most of my Battleships when it was a viable defensive measure, but it is no longer viable.  All it will do is slightly deplete some planes faster for the CV factory that will likely never exhaust their plane complement.  AA is a false prophecy, it is the least useful thing you can equip your ships with.

"Your anti-aircraft guns are not really a counter to aircraft, which is kind of ridiculous when I say that out loud.  ANTI-AIRCRAFT guns are not really a counter to aircraft, HOLY S---!  How did we get into this situation??  Ugh..."

- The Mighty Jingles

Edited by Sventex
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12 minutes ago, Sventex said:

AA is the least useful tool in your arsenal.  Don't even bother upgrading the AA on AA ships, it is a losing proposition.

I used to spec AA and upgrade AA on most of my Battleships when it was a viable defensive measure, but it is no longer viable.  All it will do is slightly deplete some planes faster for the CV factory that will likely never exhaust their plane complement.  AA is a false prophecy, it is the least useful thing you can equip your ships with.

"Your anti-aircraft guns are not really a counter to aircraft, which is kind of ridiculous when I say that out loud.  ANTI-AIRCRAFT guns are not really a counter to aircraft, HOLY S---!  How did we get into this situation??  Ugh..."

- The Mighty Jingles

Well, I've never specced for AA either, not in RTS days and not now.  It is too specialized for the cost of the skills.  You can choose things that benefit you against all ships, CVs included, or things that benefit you against  perhaps 1 in 24 ships you'll face.

That said, I certainly don't complain that AA gets a bit of a boost on secondary specced BBs.

Edited by Helstrem

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59 minutes ago, Markk9 said:

Will it make a difference if a swap GFSCM2 for AAM2? I really don't need the extra range, but I need all the help I can with AA.

Don't do it. Musashi's AA is absolutely dreadful. T6 ships have better AA than it has. Don't waste anything on trying to make it better. You can't improve it enough to do anything against any CV it will see. Musashi is incredibly tough for a T9 (being basically a Yamato one tier lower). That's your AA defense. 

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38 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

Only for those who define "useful" and "immune" as synonymous.  Musashi's AA is truly dreadful and the next best thing to useless, but not all AA is so.

Perhaps you find it useless because you've decided it is useless and thus don't bother with it, self fulfilling your prophecy. 

No, its useless. Its designed as a placebo to make the player feel something is happening, when in reality the strike always gets through. Aircraft carriers are just there to make matches go faster oh, that is why the strike always has to get through.

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5 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

No, its useless. Its designed as a placebo to make the player feel something is happening, when in reality the strike always gets through. Aircraft carriers are just there to make matches go faster oh, that is why the strike always has to get through.

As I said, only if you consider useful and immune to be the same thing.  If you instead have any comprehension of game balance then you understand that immune is not a goal and is not viable balance.

A squadron's first strike getting through is not a problem.   If a squadron gets off all of its strikes against a ship with good AA, that would be a problem.  If a CV couldn't get any strike off against a ship with good AA that would also be a problem.

You can down vote me or say any nonsense you like in response, but the fact is that CVs, like all other ships, will be balanced in such a way that they can do damage to any other ship.  Your desire and demand for immunity is childish and absurd.

Edited by Helstrem
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2 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

As I said, only if you consider useful and immune to be the same thing.  If you instead have any comprehension of game balance then you understand that immune is not a goal and is not viable balance.

A squadron's first strike getting through is not a problem.   If a squadron gets off all of its strikes against a ship with good AA, that would be a problem.  If a CV couldn't get any strike off against a ship with good AA that would also be a problem.

You can down vote me or say any nonsense you like in response, but the fact is that CVs, like all other ships, will be balanced in such a way that they can do damage to any other ship.  Your desire and demand for immunity is childish and absurd.

Your idea of "balance" is rendered nonsense by the simple fact that prior to the rework we had meaningful anti-aircraft capabilities yet CVs could also get damage.

At present your effect on the strike depends entirely on whether the aircraft carrier driver is an idiot. 

 You can fling insults all you want, but it won't change the fact that you're defending a system that doesn't work for one side of the interaction and exists only to make the game less fun for most of the players in it, one that has driven thousands of players from the game and cost the company thousands of dollars in lost income.

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4 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

Your idea of "balance" is rendered nonsense by the simple fact that prior to the rework we had meaningful anti-aircraft capabilities yet CVs could also get damage.

At present your effect on the strike depends entirely on whether the aircraft carrier driver is an idiot. 

 You can fling insults all you want, but it won't change the fact that you're defending a system that doesn't work for one side of the interaction and exists only to make the game less fun for most of the players in it, one that has driven thousands of players from the game and cost the company thousands of dollars in lost income.

The balance was very different.  Strikes were far, far more damaging and AA was more effective.  But the balance was similar, the CV could still get the strike off if they wanted to.

Look, almost nobody thinks the way it is balanced is really good, but pretending that AA is useless just totally discredits anything else you might have to say.  Balance in this game seems to stretch from extremely lethal and relatively easy to avoid attacks such as IJN torpedoes to less damaging, but much harder to avoid attacks such as HE from high rate of fire ships.  CVs are more towards the latter in that AA and maneuvering can, not will, blunt their attacks a bit, but some damage will be done.  Even the most agile ship sometimes gets hit by an IJN torpedo, and the result is generally fatal when it happens.

I do think there is a lot of room for improvement, but immunity is not part or that.

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14 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

A squadron's first strike getting through is not a problem.   If a squadron gets off all of its strikes against a ship with good AA, that would be a problem.  If a CV couldn't get any strike off against a ship with good AA that would also be a problem.

So, can I get a free first shot at every target I am at with my BBs, CAs and DDs, please?

The issue with AA being either "useless" or "making CVs unplayable" stems from the design: All damage goes to the last plane, meaning AA DPS aura has to chew through all planes in order to prevent damage to a ship. Since the process is entirely automatic and cant be helped by the ship player this means any AA not able to prevent damage is perceived by that particular ship captain as useless since it does not, well, prevent damage. However, should this automatic systems jump the barrier and become powerful enough to prevent damage then all of a sudden CVs are unplayable since they cant get any strikes in. To me this is just broken design, but call it what you will.

So, can you balance AA numbers so that the averages over 12 players per game are not too much out of order and CV players can still enjoy their class. Totally.

Can you balance AA in a way that ship captains don't feel helpless and screwed when the planes come in because they know that AA is entirely automated and unreliable since it will never prevent a first strike? No, impossible by design.

So tell me again please, how a squadrons first strike and the almost guaranteed damage that they can inflict on targets is not a problem for that ship.

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24 minutes ago, shinytrashcan said:

So, can I get a free first shot at every target I am at with my BBs, CAs and DDs, please?

Sure.  <poof> you already have it.  Keep in mind that "can" is not "will".

Different ship types play differently.  Trying to compare them directly is an exercise in futility and trying to dumb the game down so every ship behaves the same is, well, dumb.

And you are correct that there is no AA balance that will make everybody happy.  In particular the people who want immunity are doomed to be unhappy.

 

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