DDs being the first ship to be sunk and what might be done about it

[Helstrem]

I see a common claim or insinuation from DD players that DDs are underpowered and this is shown by the fact that it is most often a DD that is sunk first.  Often this is in the context of CV or radar discussions.

However, what I see play out in game is that it is most often another DD that is responsible for the sinking of the first ship, most often another DD, be it directly via shellfire/torpedoes or indirectly via spotting and that the victim DD was overly aggressive in pushing forward or into a cap too early.  Yes, sometimes the responsible party is a CV or radar cruiser, but not as often as a fellow DD.

Given the game's player base is not something that can be changed, the only things I can think of that could make DDs significantly less likely to be the first ship sunk wouldn't make much sense and would make DDs massively overpowered in the hands of anybody who is good with them.  Given how often DDs are directly responsible for the first DD being sunk increasing DD offensive capability would be self defeating.  That leaves increasing DD defensive capability.  Better stealth won't help in DD vs DD matchups as that would be shared by both the killer DD and the victim DD, though it might help against CVs.  Blunt durability seems to only way to significantly alter this.  At least doubling DD health, perhaps as much as quintupling it, is about the only thing I can think of that would change the most likely ship to die from a DD to either a cruiser or a BB, and that would simply be through DDs being so cussedly tough that the bad player's DD lives long enough for another ship to sink first.  Imagine was a good DD player with a DD of 40,000-115,000 health would do to cruisers and BBs?

Basically, I think the complaint is without merit and is fundamentally built into the gameplay of DDs by their very nature of being the stealthiest type of ship.  Because the most common cause of early DD destruction is other DDs it isn't really possible to significantly affect the problem as any lever that is adjusted affects all the DDs in question.  It would be possible to leave DDs as they are and simply make it so that BBs, cruisers and CVs did even less damage to DDs, but I don't think that would change DDs from being the most common first kill.

[FrodoFraggin]

What I find just as bad is too often half the team fails to score higher than the DD that dies first   That’s a team determined to lose 

[Ariochaotik]

lowest health and armor, expected to be out front scouting in front of all the other ships... i wonder why they die first? :/
 

[Compassghost]

It is very hard to raise the skill floor without raising the skill ceiling. The only way to do that is to provide a benefit to the lower skill player that has no benefit to the higher skill player.

 

Examples would be:

1. Labeling ships with radar or potential radar with a giant RADAR icon above their name plates.

2. Labeling ship radar distance explicitly as a visible zone on the water when the enemy ship is spotted.

3. Highlighting friendlies you can accidentally teamkill with your torpedoes.

4. Reminding DDs to turn off AA before being spotted.

 

 

In other words, corrections on basic game mistakes that basically spoon feed the worst of DD players.

[JCC45]

2 hours ago, Ariochaotik said:

lowest health and armor, expected to be out front scouting in front of all the other ships... i wonder why they die first? :/
 

Nonsense.

Most bad DD players treat PVP like it is Co-op.  They rush in, tongues lolling out of the side of their mouth, heading straight towards the most predictable cap at top speed thinking they will torp anything they encounter.  They never think that it is 12 vs 1 at that point... they just want to cap or torp.

For an entire month in chat at the beginning of the battle I offered 500 doubloons to any DD that survived the match and finished in the top 6 of the team. I was hoping they might learn that early game spotting is much more important than capping and that a late game DD, when the Reds have been reduced, is an incredibly powerful ship.

 

 

I never gave away a single doubloon.

 

 

[Wolfswetpaws]

10 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

DDs being the first ship to be sunk and what might be done about it

By Helstrem,

Nothing.

It is survival of the fittest.  Once a player hits the "BATTLE" button, they're expected to do their best.  Getting sunk is a risk that we all take when we play.

We cannot control other player's game play, nor should we reward good players by penalizing them with a figurative thumb on the scales of "balance".

Not every player takes this game seriously enough to learn and improve their game.  I'm glad that there are players who do strive to learn from their experiences and the vast amounts of available knowledge and training resources.

 

Quote

" And you cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they can and should do for themselves."

 

[Helstrem]

9 minutes ago, Ariochaotik said:

lowest health and armor, expected to be out front scouting in front of all the other ships... i wonder why they die first? :/

DDs are not expected to do that except by bad players.  I sometimes open a match telling our DDs that they are much more valuable afloat than an early cap advantage is.  So often after I put that in chat the DD responds that he is just going to test the waters and will run if it is too hot, only to be subsequently sunk, often as first blood.

8 minutes ago, Compassghost said:

It is very hard to raise the skill floor without raising the skill ceiling. The only way to do that is to provide a benefit to the lower skill player that has no benefit to the higher skill player.

 

Examples would be:

1. Labeling ships with radar or potential radar with a giant RADAR icon above their name plates.

2. Labeling ship radar distance explicitly as a visible zone on the water when the enemy ship is spotted.

3. Highlighting friendlies you can accidentally teamkill with your torpedoes.

4. Reminding DDs to turn off AA before being spotted.

 

 

In other words, corrections on basic game mistakes that basically spoon feed the worst of DD players.

1) Wouldn't affect the DD vs DD interaction very much, and that is the single biggest cause of DD early death.

2) Same as above, for the same reason, most DDs don't have radar.

3) Again, while annoying, isn't something that significantly contributes to DD early death syndrome.

4) And again, not something that much affects the DD vs DD action.

3 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Nothing.

Barring something stupid like in my OP, I agree.

[shinytrashcan]

One thing I noticed both when playing a DD and when playing a BB or CA/CL is the disconnect between the DDs and "backline".

If you go out in front as a DD to spot/contest, chances are more than likely you will get spotted by the red DD. In a 1v1 these encounters are usually determined by concealment and gun power, i.e. you either outgun or outspot your opponent. The big difference is the support fire from the back, by BBs and cruisers, which makes spotting the DD so much more valuable. Should, for whatever reasons, the backline of BBs and CA/CLs be too far back or not ready to shoot at any DD spotted then you will quickly loose said DD and all your spotting and initiative on that flank.

So, from what I have seen the cause of most DD deaths was either disregard for red radars and capabilities or simply either the DD outrunning its support or the support hesitating/abandoning the flank. This means, as a DD driver you need to check whether your team is following you and is prepared to shoot at anything potentially shooting/spotting you, or whether they are still figuring out what to do. Often I find myself wanting to push into a cap because I know there is little resistance, but most of the team on my flank is still more or less in spawn and too far away to provide any meaningful support fire.

TL,DR: DDs, check where your friends with guns are and don't overextend. Friends with guns, please don't leave your friends in ninja-botes hanging.

[Ensign_Pulver_2016]

17 minutes ago, Compassghost said:

Reminding DDs to turn off AA before being spotted

I hate when I forget to check that. I am so used to running AA off that if i finish a game under aircraft I forget to check next game.

[Helstrem]

2 minutes ago, shinytrashcan said:

One thing I noticed both when playing a DD and when playing a BB or CA/CL is the disconnect between the DDs and "backline".

If you go out in front as a DD to spot/contest, chances are more than likely you will get spotted by the red DD. In a 1v1 these encounters are usually determined by concealment and gun power, i.e. you either outgun or outspot your opponent. The big difference is the support fire from the back, by BBs and cruisers, which makes spotting the DD so much more valuable. Should, for whatever reasons, the backline of BBs and CA/CLs be too far back or not ready to shoot at any DD spotted then you will quickly loose said DD and all your spotting and initiative on that flank.

So, from what I have seen the cause of most DD deaths was either disregard for red radars and capabilities or simply either the DD outrunning its support or the support hesitating/abandoning the flank. This means, as a DD driver you need to check whether your team is following you and is prepared to shoot at anything potentially shooting/spotting you, or whether they are still figuring out what to do. Often I find myself wanting to push into a cap because I know there is little resistance, but most of the team on my flank is still more or less in spawn and too far away to provide any meaningful support fire.

TL,DR: DDs, check where your friends with guns are and don't overextend. Friends with guns, please don't leave your friends in ninja-botes hanging.

If the DD outruns its support and gets focused down that is still on the DD player for having continued to push even after his teammates revealed themselves as less than ideal.

I am a bad DD player and even I've had good games that started like that because I saw it happening and I dialed back my aggressiveness until a better opportunity presented itself.

[GRIMLOCK__]

If you die first as a DD, its usually because the opposing DD did a good job and you did something predictable

(I have about 8 Dev strikes with my Benham based on early kills in zones DD's should be expecting torps to be laid early)

 

So, what might be done about it?

 

• Read the damn list of your oppponets.
• Make the mini map as big as possible
• WATCH the damn mini map

Git Gud

 

 

[MrDeaf]

The only way to fix stupid DD player problems are to fundamentally change how this game heavily relies on concealment and spotting.

Of course, you know, that requires too much work on the back end, so don't ever expect it to happen.

 

In the mean time, just deal with it. You can't fix stupid.

[clammboy]

34 minutes ago, Ariochaotik said:

lowest health and armor, expected to be out front scouting in front of all the other ships... i wonder why they die first? :/
 

I cant agree with this seen to many good DD players who stuck around all match and wrecked havoc on the other team . I agree it doesn't help but any ship played bad gets deleted quickly especially in upper tiers . 

[Fletcher7_1944]

32 minutes ago, JCC45 said:

Nonsense.

Most bad DD players treat PVP like it is Co-op.  They rush in, tongues lolling out of the side of their mouth, heading straight towards the most predictable cap at top speed thinking they will torp anything they encounter.  They never think that it is 12 vs 1 at that point... they just want to cap or torp.

For an entire month in chat at the beginning of the battle I offered 500 doubloons to any DD that survived he match and finished in the top 6 of the team. I was hoping they might learn that early game spotting is much more important than capping and that a late game DD, when the Reds have been reduced, is an incredibly powerful ship.

 

 

I never gave away a single doubloon.

 

 

  You actually made me laugh out loud reading your description of "those" DD players in Co-op!    There are SO many of them that do just that- and either die ASAP, or cause the entire bot team to swarm that location- or both.

[TaxDollarsAtWork]

40k HP, that's almost as much as heavy cruiser Zao

DDs dying early is natural especially considering like you said it comes from other DDs especially hunter kill cap contesting DDs designed to do that sort of thing

 

Overall its not something that really seems to be a problem game design wise

[Helstrem]

1 minute ago, TaxDollarsAtWork said:

40k HP, that's almost as much as heavy cruiser Zao

DDs dying early is natural especially considering like you said it comes from other DDs especially hunter kill cap contesting DDs designed to do that sort of thing

 

Overall its not something that really seems to be a problem game design wise

And 40k is on the low end of what I think would be needed.  I actually think DD health pools would need to be more in the 100k range to keep the rest of the game's mechanics the same and yet get DDs to not be the first to die most often.

I did think of another thing that would do it, if cruiser stealth was boosted to DD levels or better making cruisers, with their squishy citadels, the ships first into caps and furthest forward when spotted would also get DDs to lose their "first to die" crown.

 

I agree it is not something that is a problem, but some DD players love to use it as evidence of how bad DDs are and how much they need buffs or other ships need nerfs.  The nice thing for those DD players is that should either thing happen, they retain this argument because neither buff of DD or nerf of other ships will affect it.

[Snargfargle]

DDs have traditionally been the first to come under fire in naval battles as they are usually the ships stationed on the outskirts of the formation as pickets. They are sunk more because they are relatively small and lightly-armored ships that have even capsized and sunk in storms. If you want DDs in WOWS to survive as long as the bigger ships than you can't have them actually be and act like DDs. The knowledge that if you are spotted then you are likely to be sunk unless you on the top of your game makes DDs exciting to play. If you want a more sedate gaming experience then play a long-range battleship.

[YouSatInGum]

54 minutes ago, JCC45 said:

Nonsense.

Most bad DD players treat PVP like it is Co-op.  They rush in, tongues lolling out of the side of their mouth, heading straight towards the most predictable cap at top speed thinking they will torp anything they encounter.  They never think that it is 12 vs 1 at that point... they just want to cap or torp.

For an entire month in chat at the beginning of the battle I offered 500 doubloons to any DD that survived he match and finished in the top 6 of the team. I was hoping they might learn that early game spotting is much more important than capping and that a late game DD, when the Reds have been reduced, is an incredibly powerful ship.

 

 

I never gave away a single doubloon.

 

 

Huh?

How many times did you offer that?  I survive around half the time, and I tend to be in the top half...and I'm not unicum or anything....

[tfcas119]

1 hour ago, Compassghost said:

Examples would be:

1. Labeling ships with radar or potential radar with a giant RADAR icon above their name plates.

2. Labeling ship radar distance explicitly as a visible zone on the water when the enemy ship is spotted.

3. Highlighting friendlies you can accidentally teamkill with your torpedoes.

4. Reminding DDs to turn off AA before being spotted.

I think we both realize there will still be people who still charge into a DM, get killed, and have no idea how they got killed, and torp friendlies, and become even easier food to a CV.

[Sventex]

57 minutes ago, JCC45 said:

They rush in, tongues lolling out of the side of their mouth, heading straight towards the most predictable cap at top speed thinking they will torp anything they encounter. 

It's cause that is a strategy for great success.  Capping at the start, capping again, capping another time, and capping a 4th time for good measure.

20201212_001448_PFSD508-Le-Terrible_42_Neighbors.wowsreplay

[Helstrem]

This also is a major factor in the other common rational for DDs being underpowered, their average damage.  When you have such a high percentage of a type being sunk early in a glorious fratricide of DDs with no, or low damage done (even dev striking another DD before being sunk pulls average damage way down) is perforce going to make DD average damage abysmal even if DDs are plenty potent so that good DD players put up good average damage.

Even good DD players will average less damage though as DDs are very prone to brutal punishment for making a single error. In no way am I suggesting in this thread that DDs aren't the hardest ships to do well in, they are.

[eviltane]

1 hour ago, Helstrem said:

I see a common claim or insinuation from DD players that DDs are underpowered and this is shown by the fact that it is most often a DD that is sunk first.  Often this is in the context of CV or radar discussions.

However, what I see play out in game is that it is most often another DD that is responsible for the sinking of the first ship, most often another DD, be it directly via shellfire/torpedoes or indirectly via spotting and that the victim DD was overly aggressive in pushing forward or into a cap too early.  Yes, sometimes the responsible party is a CV or radar cruiser, but not as often as a fellow DD.

Given the game's player base is not something that can be changed, the only things I can think of that could make DDs significantly less likely to be the first ship sunk wouldn't make much sense and would make DDs massively overpowered in the hands of anybody who is good with them.  Given how often DDs are directly responsible for the first DD being sunk increasing DD offensive capability would be self defeating.  That leaves increasing DD defensive capability.  Better stealth won't help in DD vs DD matchups as that would be shared by both the killer DD and the victim DD, though it might help against CVs.  Blunt durability seems to only way to significantly alter this.  At least doubling DD health, perhaps as much as quintupling it, is about the only thing I can think of that would change the most likely ship to die from a DD to either a cruiser or a BB, and that would simply be through DDs being so cussedly tough that the bad player's DD lives long enough for another ship to sink first.  Imagine was a good DD player with a DD of 40,000-115,000 health would do to cruisers and BBs?

Basically, I think the complaint is without merit and is fundamentally built into the gameplay of DDs by their very nature of being the stealthiest type of ship.  Because the most common cause of early DD destruction is other DDs it isn't really possible to significantly affect the problem as any lever that is adjusted affects all the DDs in question.  It would be possible to leave DDs as they are and simply make it so that BBs, cruisers and CVs did even less damage to DDs, but I don't think that would change DDs from being the most common first kill.

Leave DDs alone.  We don’t need another class reworked and dumbed down for purpose of potatoes doing better .  The last time was already an absolute fiasco.     DDs need to be vulnerable they don’t need to become another cruiser class. 

[Crucis]

1 hour ago, Ariochaotik said:

lowest health and armor, expected to be out front scouting in front of all the other ships... i wonder why they die first? :/
 

That's not why they die first.  I love playing DDs and I'm usually the last DD to die on my team, if at all.  It's all about playing smart.  Too many DD players just charge into caps thinking that they absolutely must get onto a cap early in the battle.  And too many DD players forget that even if the other team takes a cap (in domination mode) you can take it back later if you push the enemy away from the cap or outright sink all enemy ships near that cap.  Your team does NOT have to take the cap first.

 

Another problem I see is DD players who get spotted by the enemy and instantly open fire, even when they have a very good chance of disengaging and running away.  This is particularly important when your DD is badly outgunned by the enemy.  This sort of bad DD play gets DDs sunk quickly.  It's easier to disengage and get unspotted when you keep your guns silent and not incurring a gun bloom penalty.

 

 

[Helstrem]

1 minute ago, eviltane said:

Leave DDs alone.  We don’t need another class reworked and dumbed down for purpose of potatoes doing better .  The last time was already an absolute fiasco.     DDs need to be vulnerable they don’t need to become another cruiser class. 

I don't think you understood the purpose of my OP, or didn't read it carefully enough.

[Crucis]

8 minutes ago, tfcas119 said:

I think we both realize there will still be people who still charge into a DM, get killed, and have no idea how they got killed, and torp friendlies, and become even easier food to a CV.

These are the kind of players who will have terrible WRs and just complain about everything, while refusing to accept that the root cause of their issues is their bad play.  They can be in the most OP ships in the game, and still do poorly, and just claim that the ship isn't as OP as everyone else says, because heaven forbid, the problem just can't be them!