Proposal: German Super-Heavy Cruiser Line

[Grand_Admiral_Murrel]

The following is a proposal for a German super-heavy cruiser line, branching off of the existing German heavy cruiser line. These ships will have similar performance characteristics to the two existing (premium) German super-heavy cruisers Admiral Graf Spee and Agir. 

I actually started working on this almost a year ago, but only started writing my ideas down in May of this year. I toyed with the ideas, changed some things here and there, and by August, I was almost done. Then, school happened, and this got shelved. Until now.

Keep in mind that the following ships were conceived long before the new skill tree was released for the community to review. Well, I think that’s all the disclaimers out of the way. Geeze, I’m starting to sound like WG.

OOF.

 

I hope you enjoy, and I would really, really appreciate your feedback!

 

Super-cruisers. Battlecruisers. Large cruisers. Call them what you will, these ships are cruisers, first and foremost. They have the same cruiser sigma values (shell grouping) as the existing German heavy cruisers, but with dispersion between that of a battleship and a cruiser. This means that their shells will have a high chance of landing on target, but bad RNG will cause shells to land farther away than on conventional cruisers. The strengths of the new super-heavy cruisers will be alpha strike, not damage per minute. While they have excessive armour for a cruiser, they seriously lack the armour to brawl with battleships (including the likes of Champagne, Florida, and Slava). 

 

Here is a list of their common features:

·        High top speeds (theoretically able to outrun what they can't out-fight… except ships like Georgia exist, which can run down and annihilate these vessels)

·        Mediocre maneuverability (longer rudder shift, large turning radius)

·        45 seconds fire duration (directly between cruisers' 30 seconds and battleships' 60 seconds). I chose this value because super-cruisers are collectively having their survivability nerfed, so this helps to mitigate the fire damage.

·        Icebreaker bows to protect against being citadelled through the bows at close and medium ranges

·        Mediocre concealment for their size

·        Typical German anti-aircraft suite (low long-range aura, powerful mid-range aura, mediocre short-range aura; neither great nor poor)

·        Access to German cruiser hydroacoustic search or defensive AA consumables (not both)

·        Access to either spotter or fighter plane consumables (not both)

·        Armour scheme that encourages playing at medium and close ranges – good main and upper belt but poor deck armour, which can bounce battleship-calibre shells when angled properly

·        Access to torpedoes, for those moments when you really need a get-out-of-jail-free card

·        ¼ calibre armour penetration for high explosive shells

·        15-20% torpedo damage reduction

·        High shell velocities with low drag factors (faster shell velocity and flatter shell arcs than Agir)

·        Mediocre concealment

 

Initially, I considered two iterations for this proposed line. Iteration I transitions from 283 mm guns to 305 mm guns at tier IX, while Iteration II retains the 283 mm guns throughout the line, with improved performance characteristics (better accuracy and faster reload) with progression through the tiers.

 

The names I have designated for the following ships were chosen simply because I like German ships to sound… well, German, and naming them after German states seemed to make sense. In the time it took me to take my ideas and post this proposal, two of the names I had planned were used for other German ships (tier 8 battleship Brandenburg (?) and the tier 4 aircraft carrier Rhein). Despite this, I have still used these names as placeholders and welcome your suggestions in the comments below. Basically, what I want to achieve is a tech tree proposal of ships that the player base actually wants, for both the community and WG’s sakes. I thought it was worth a shot.

 

 

VI Deutschland

The first ship in its class, the Deutschland differs very little from her sister ship Admiral Graf Spee. Her major differences are a slightly higher top speed, worse maneuverability, a slightly improved armour scheme, and shorter-ranged torpedoes.

 

Main Armament: 2x3 283 mm guns

Reload time (s): 20

Maximum dispersion (m): 182

Maximum range (km): 16

Initial shell velocity (m/s): 910

AP shell damage (HP): 8400

HE shell damage (HP): 3200

HE shell penetration (mm): 71

Fire chance (%): 20

180-degree turret rotation time (s): 25

 

Torpedo Armament: 2x4 533 mm torpedo launchers

Reload time (s): 90

Damage (HP): 13700

Range (km): 6

Speed (knots): 64

 

Secondary Armament:

Range (km): 4

3x2 105 mm

·        Reload time (s): 3.4

·        HE shell damage (HP): 1200

·        HE shell penetration (mm): 26

·        Fire chance (%): 5

8x1 150 mm

·        Reload time (s): 7.5

·        HE shell damage (HP): 1700

·        HE shell penetration (mm): 38

·        Fire chance (%): 8

 

Survivability:

Main belt (mm): 100

Upper belt (mm): 25

Main deck (mm): 25

Bow and stern plating (mm): 19

Icebreaker (mm): 25

 

Maneuverability:

Maximum speed (knots): 29

Rudder shift time (s): 12

 

 

 

 

VII Hannover (ex-Brandenburg)

A development of the Deutschland-class known as the P-class super-heavy cruiser. This was a real design project; it was an attempt to improve the design of its predecessors, completely ignoring the terms set forth by the Washington Naval Treaty. While it retains the firepower of the Deutschland-class ships, she has a significant speed and survivability advantage over the likes of the Graf Spee.

 

Note: Another successor to the Deutschland-class was the D-class super-heavy cruiser. The P-class was chosen to succeed the Deutschland because the armour of the D-class was rather extreme (a very, very thick armour belt for a tier 7 cruiser) and did not fit into the logical progression of the line.

 

Main Armament: 2x3 283 mm guns

Reload time (s): 20

Maximum dispersion (m): 182

Maximum range (km): 16

Initial shell velocity (m/s): 910

AP shell damage (HP): 8400

HE shell damage (HP): 3200

HE shell penetration (mm): 71

Fire chance (%): 20

180-degree turret rotation time (s): 25

 

Torpedo Armament: 2x4 533 mm torpedo launchers

Reload time (s): 90

Damage (HP): 13700

Range (km): 6

Speed (knots): 64

 

Secondary Armament:

Range (km): 4.5

3x2 105 mm

·        Reload time (s): 3.4

·        HE shell damage (HP): 1200

·        HE shell penetration (mm): 26

·        Fire chance (%): 5

8x1 150 mm

·        Reload time (s): 7.5

·        HE shell damage (HP): 1700

·        HE shell penetration (mm): 38

·        Fire chance (%): 8

 

Survivability:

Main belt (mm): 135

Upper belt (mm): 27

Main deck (mm): 25

Bow and stern plating (mm): 25

Icebreaker (mm): 32

 

Maneuverability:

Maximum speed (knots): 32

Rudder shift time (s): 12.5

VIII Hessen (ex-Rheinland)

A further development of the P-class super-heavy cruiser with far greater displacement, this project was an early stage of the designs that eventually led to the Scharnhorst-class battleship (or battlecruiser, whichever you prefer). Like the Scharnhorst, it has nine 283 mm guns mounted in three triple-turrets but lacks the armour to brawl with battleships.

 

Main Armament: 3x3 283 mm guns

Reload time (s): 22

Maximum dispersion (m): 192

Maximum range (km): 17.5

Initial shell velocity (m/s): 910

AP shell damage (HP): 8400

HE shell damage (HP): 3200

HE shell penetration (mm): 71

Fire chance (%): 20

180-degree turret rotation time (s): 25

 

Torpedo Armament: 2x4 533 mm torpedo launchers

Reload time (s): 90

Damage (HP): 13700

Range (km): 6

Speed (knots): 64

 

Secondary Armament:

Range (km): 5.2

6x2 105 mm

·        Reload time (s): 3.4

·        HE shell damage (HP): 1200

·        HE shell penetration (mm): 26

·        Fire chance (%): 5

4x2 150 mm

·        Reload time (s): 7.5

·        HE shell damage (HP): 1700

·        HE shell penetration (mm): 38

·        Fire chance (%): 8

 

Survivability:

Main belt (mm): 160

Upper belt (mm): 30

Main deck (mm): 27

Bow and stern plating (mm): 27

Icebreaker (mm): 40

 

Maneuverability:

Maximum speed (knots): 32.5

Rudder shift time (s): 13.2

 

 

 

 

IX Hamburg

A project for a large, fast battlecruiser armed with 305 mm main battery guns in three triple turrets. The most significant improvements over Hessen are thicker main and upper belt armour and slightly heavier broadside.

 

Main Armament: 3x3 305 mm guns

Reload time (s): 22

Maximum dispersion (m): 200

Maximum range (km): 18.0

Initial shell velocity (m/s): 890

AP shell damage (HP): 9400

HE shell damage (HP): 3600

HE shell penetration (mm): 76

Fire chance (%): 27

180-degree turret rotation time (s): 30

 

Torpedo Armament: 2x4 533 mm torpedo launchers

Reload time (s): 90

Damage (HP): 13700

Range (km): 6

Speed (knots): 64

 

Secondary Armament:

Range: 5.7

6x2 105 mm

·        Reload time (s): 3.4

·        HE shell damage (HP): 1200

·        HE shell penetration (mm): 26

·        Fire chance (%): 5

4x2 150 mm

·        Reload time (s): 7.5

·        HE shell damage (HP): 1700

·        HE shell penetration (mm): 38

·        Fire chance (%): 8

 

Survivability:

Main belt (mm): 185

Upper belt (mm): 40

Main deck (mm): 30

Bow and stern plating (mm): 27

Icebreaker (mm): 40

 

Maneuverability:

Maximum speed (knots): 33

Rudder shift time (s): 13.5

 

 

X Berlin

The pinnacle of the design for a super-heavy cruiser, Berlin fulfills the role of a cruiser assassin. Fast, well-armoured, and with a powerful main battery, she poses a threat to every hostile vessel. Even still, captains are cautioned to avoid less-than-advantageous confrontations with enemy battleships.

 

Main Armament: 4x3 305 mm guns

Reload time (s): 22

Maximum dispersion (m): 200

Maximum range (km): 18.0

Initial shell velocity (m/s): 890

AP shell damage (HP): 9400

HE shell damage (HP): 3600

HE shell penetration (mm): 76

Fire chance (%): 27

180-degree turret rotation time (s): 30

 

Torpedo Armament: 2x4 533 mm torpedo launchers

Reload time (s): 90

Damage (HP): 13700

Range (km): 6

Speed (knots): 64

 

Secondary Armament:

Range: 6.2

8x2 105 mm

·        Reload time (s): 3.4

·        HE shell damage (HP): 1200

·        HE shell penetration (mm): 26

·        Fire chance (%): 5

4x2 150 mm

·        Reload time (s): 7.5

·        HE shell damage (HP): 1700

·        HE shell penetration (mm): 38

·        Fire chance (%): 8

 

Survivability:

Main belt (mm): 200

Upper belt (mm): 40

Main deck (mm): 30

Bow and stern plating (mm): 27

Icebreaker (mm): 40

 

Maneuverability:

Maximum speed (knots): 32.5

Rudder shift time (s): 14

[arch4random]

lost interest at 6k torps

[Ace_04]

Sure, why not?

Tech tree battlecruisers have been long requested in this game.

WG will have to do something to create more content once the mainline stuff runs out.

[Blorgh2017]

Looks good, OP... lol.

[tcbaker777]

i like the sound of it, but its up to WG whether it happens, which it probably wont

[S_H_O_C_K_W_A_V_E]

What you've done here is quite interesting, I must say. I never truly considered a Panzerschiffe to Schlachtkreuzer transition having potential, but here we are.

However, I feel that you can improve on a couple of things with this line. First off, I suggest that you increase the torpedo range from six kilometers to eight kilometers. Compared to the standard German CAs, they lack a bit of punch to their torpedo armament, given that, with the exception of the Roon, the current Germans have a fairly hefty torpedo battery, whereas these do not. Adding a bit of range will compensate by giving these ships some breathing room to use their torpedoes, similar to Graf Spee.

Second, I suggest you make the reload a uniform 20 seconds throughout the line. Taking the Tier VIII Hessen as an example, it appears to have a similar configuration to the Scharnhorst, but it has a two second longer reload. Even with the improved dispersion of these BCs, I can see the lack of caliber being a significant problem, especially considering that other battlecruisers have a myriad set of improvements to their artillery to compensate, i.e the Alaska having access to Superheavy AP shells and the Siegfried having 380mm guns, and then coming to the monster that is Stalingrad. 

Finally, I suggest that you increase the secondary battery range by half a kilometer. You don't need to take this one seriously, this is for the memes.

- Shrayes

[shadowsrmine]

3 hours ago, Grand_Admiral_Murrel said:

The following is a proposal for a German super-heavy cruiser line, branching off of the existing German heavy cruiser line. These ships will have similar performance characteristics to the two existing (premium) German super-heavy cruisers Admiral Graf Spee and Agir. 

I actually started working on this almost a year ago, but only started writing my ideas down in May of this year. I toyed with the ideas, changed some things here and there, and by August, I was almost done. Then, school happened, and this got shelved. Until now.

Keep in mind that the following ships were conceived long before the new skill tree was released for the community to review. Well, I think that’s all the disclaimers out of the way. Geeze, I’m starting to sound like WG.  

 

They've already made Four of this class,The two earlier ones are clones Admiral Graff Spee//HSF Graff Spee and  Agir and Siegfried and the only thing that interested me about Siegfried and to a Much Much Lesser Degree Agir was their abilitys as secondary ships and their nerfing that  After I got Siegfried

[SeaGladius]

I think the shell velocities are a little high. Something more like 870m/s would be more appropriate imho.  Overall, they do seem like interesting ships, and a tech tree line of BCs would be nice.  However, WG needs to figure out how to better balance BCs against regulars cruisers, so I voted “No” for the appeal question.

[Grand_Admiral_Murrel]

Thank you to everyone who responded. Ironically, I did have all the things mentioned above (8 km torps, increased secondary range, 20s reload) but I was afraid of making them too OP. I appreciate all feedback! 

[PrinzEugen85]

Good stuff.

[Rose_Bomb]

I really do like the idea of these Heavy Cruisers, though if we're talking TX being pinnacle of the lines, I'd give Berlin much longer Torps, at 9km or such, and have the AA have equal range to the GK, at the very least.

I'd also really want German cruisers to be able to have secondary builds, even though the amount of shells being spewed out isn't crazy. One could argue that it'd be too much firepower against a 1v1 against a DD, but most active Gunboats I see are well outside 10km, which is the best I can get Cruiser secondaries to go.

[Captain_Hook_NA]

With regard to Kreuzer Typ P (1939 Design).

two vertical armour schemes were evaluated

one traditional

A) 120 mm vertical belt + 60 mm slope + 30 mm torpedobulkhead

or

B) 60 mm decapping plate + 110 mm inclined belt + 30 mm torpedobulkhead