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Scenarios

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Hi,

I'm wondering if we are the only one who are missing new "scenarios" or even historic battle which took place during World War II.  I will admit, I'm not the best player.  Mostly cause I like "when I play" to take things easy.  A glass of wine or a beer usually are required.  Frankly I don't feel like playing against other people, "with other people" YES, "against" NO.  Currently the game has become kind of a repeat.  I'd like to see Dunkirk again and other maps.  By the way the more higher tire your scenario will be, the more interesting we will be in buying new ship and probably leveling the others.   And by leveling the others I mean buying Flags, Perks, etc...

So a question I'm asking my self is how many people like to play scenarios?  We are never short in players.  I wonder if we also could have new ideas for Scenarios like Monsters, or maybe bigger team with way more enemies and what would people say to covert ops mission?  You must sink an enemy fleet with DD only (torpedoes).  But there is one or two carriers in the enemy fleet with there own DD and cruiser, etc..  Or maybe just sink key targets?

Give your thoughts about this and maybe we War Gaming will develop a game for everyone :)

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1 minute ago, _No_One said:

Hi,

I'm wondering if we are the only one who are missing new "scenarios" or even historic battle which took place during World War II.  I will admit, I'm not the best player.  Mostly cause I like "when I play" to take things easy.  A glass of wine or a beer usually are required.  Frankly I don't feel like playing against other people, "with other people" YES, "against" NO.  Currently the game has become kind of a repeat.  I'd like to see Dunkirk again and other maps.  By the way the more higher tire your scenario will be, the more interesting we will be in buying new ship and probably leveling the others.   And by leveling the others I mean buying Flags, Perks, etc...

So a question I'm asking my self is how many people like to play scenarios?  We are never short in players.  I wonder if we also could have new ideas for Scenarios like Monsters, or maybe bigger team with way more enemies and what would people say to covert ops mission?  You must sink an enemy fleet with DD only (torpedoes).  But there is one or two carriers in the enemy fleet with there own DD and cruiser, etc..  Or maybe just sink key targets?

Give your thoughts about this and maybe we War Gaming will develop a game for everyone :)

Wargaming has already said no.

Multiple people have left over the issue.

You are welcome to roll that boulder up the hill...but get used to disappointment.

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Scenarios use to be my favorite thing here.

They took them all away.

Sure they are still there , just no longer worth anyone's time.

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5 minutes ago, Col_Nasty said:

just no longer worth anyone's time.

image.thumb.png.07f80e7b2e8c9f4f23422d85b3b8b46f.png

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image.thumb.png.7a1c7f7ec31209d0c226fc40272acd99.png

Still the best and most consistent place to use signals to the best advantage.

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I play randoms more than anything but if I'm frustrated or just trying to relax a bit more I've always loved scenarios. I really miss all the previous scenarios that were removed. 

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I would like more scenarios however I consider a scenario a chance to harvest. Because they usually win. Once in a while though the entire force is destroyed.

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1 hour ago, _No_One said:

Hi,

I'm wondering if we are the only one who are missing new "scenarios" or even historic battle which took place during World War II.  I will admit, I'm not the best player.  Mostly cause I like "when I play" to take things easy.  A glass of wine or a beer usually are required.  Frankly I don't feel like playing against other people, "with other people" YES, "against" NO.  Currently the game has become kind of a repeat.  I'd like to see Dunkirk again and other maps.  By the way the more higher tire your scenario will be, the more interesting we will be in buying new ship and probably leveling the others.   And by leveling the others I mean buying Flags, Perks, etc...

So a question I'm asking my self is how many people like to play scenarios?  We are never short in players.  I wonder if we also could have new ideas for Scenarios like Monsters, or maybe bigger team with way more enemies and what would people say to covert ops mission?  You must sink an enemy fleet with DD only (torpedoes).  But there is one or two carriers in the enemy fleet with there own DD and cruiser, etc..  Or maybe just sink key targets?

Give your thoughts about this and maybe we War Gaming will develop a game for everyone :)

I enjoy playing in Scenario Operations.

I'd like all the "on hiatus" Operations to return to the game.
And, I'd like new Scenario Operations to be created.

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Count me in on any list pro: Operations, Historical Battles & New Game Modes

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They took away scenarios and nerfed the remainder. You know, because they gave players too great a reward, unbalancing the game economy.

image.thumb.png.5231c025dd1bf890ae7d114ea5a9ede3.png
 

Then they gave us clan brawls. Good thing they got rid of all those modes with huge rewards, eh? 

They said operations weren't popular. Got lots of players on a Discord server I own that say otherwise. 

The devs love only one thing: T10. Everything else is simply trash. It sucks if you actually like the many things this game can offer and understand its fantastic potential. 

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1 hour ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

I enjoy playing in Scenario Operations.

I'd like all the "on hiatus" Operations to return to the game.
And, I'd like new Scenario Operations to be created.

Well, they can make a change to one to make it a T5 Op, Killer Whale.  Even with 5's, that one was reasonably easy to 5 star.  Obviously some changes are needed to it's current setup to make it more suitable for T5 however.  The docked Konig can be swapped for a stock Rhein.  Swap the Kaiser that spawns in the north in the first wave with a stock Nassau.  Keep Kawachi, but swap the Ishi with a stock Myogi or stock Hosho.  The rest of it could stay the same.

 

Ultimate Frontier can be made into a T8 Operation, with some RN spice added (NOTE: very rough idea):

The 3 Battleships encountered could be changed up from: Wyoming, New York and New Mexico to New York, New Mexico, California.  Their escort is brought up from a Pensacola to a New Orleans.

The two destroyers encountered very quickly, leave the Mahan, swap the Nicholas with a Jervis.

The Omaha and Atlanta that spawn North remain the same, but bump the Dallas that spawns E to a Surrey.

Leave the Clemson.

"Raptor's" Group would need a revamp.  It would no longer be Raptor (Ranger Class), but either a Lexington or Saipan, with a different name.  Add along side her an Implacable.  Protecting them will a Helena, Leander, Sims and Cossack.

The two Phoenix and one Omaha that spawns south, they could be left as is.  I cannot remember if they were stock gals or upgraded.  If they were stock, "max" them out.

The 3 Destroyers that appeared and went to capture the repair island, change from a Mahan, Nicolas, Sims, to, Mahan, Sims, Jevis.

 

The three main attack waves varied.  It would keep things interesting if they stayed that way:

The first wave consisted of either a 4/5/5 or 5/5/6, if I recall correctly.  I believe it was Phoenix/Omaha/Marblehead, or, Omaha/Marblehead/New Mexico.  Change that vary to 5/5/6 or 5/6/6.  Omaha, Marblehead, Pensacola/Dallas as the 5/5/6, or Omaha/Marblehead, Pensacola/Dallas, New Mexico as the 5/6/6.

The second wave consisted of either a 5/6/6 or a 5/6/7, if I recall correctly.  Omaha/Marblehead, Pensacola, New Mexico, or, Omaha, Pensacola, Colorado.  Change that vary to 6/6/6 or 6/6/7.  Pensacola, Dallas, New Mexico/Arizona/West Virginia as the 6/6/6, or, Pensacola, Dallas, Colorado/California/Florida as the 6/6/7.

The third wave only consisted of a 6/6/8, if I recall correctly.  The variance was in the battleship.  Pensacola, Dallas, North Carolina/Alabama.  Change to 6/7/8.  Pensacola/Dallas, New Orleans/Helena, North Carolina/Alabama/Massachusetts.

 

For the Transport aircraft, just have them come in all at once and have them randomly choose between the 3 flight paths that were in the RTS version.  For the airfields bombers, it can be said that they showed up the day/night before and were only now ready to do anything, if you want "story" behind that.  Have them cycle between the torpedo bombers and dive bombers once per attack wave, and have them a squadron attack all at once.  If I recall correctly they attacked each with 8 TB's split in two squadrons and 12 DB's split in two squadrons.  Have them attack with 1 TB of 6 planes in a single attack, 1 DB of 8 planes in a single attack.  Airfield will send out the DB's first, after attacking with them, send out the TB's next.

How "Raptor's group" would cycle.  They would attack the two southern forts until they are destroyed, or they are spotted by a surface ship.  Once their target forts are destroyed or spotted by a surface ship, they will begin to attack ships.  Have them cycle between each squadron type to avoid a complete drain on a single squadron.  IE: They would attack with their rocket planes, the bring in their dive bombers, followed lastly by their torpedo bombers.  Rinse and Repeat.

 

Now for the good bits, Stars.

Previously the stars were as followed:

1 Star: Save at least 3 forts.

1 Star: Sink 2 of the targets called out by the airfield.

1 Star: Save 45 planes from aircraft reinforcements.

1 Star: Sink Raptor.

1 Star: Prevent Repair Base capture.

 

Change to the following:

1 Star: Sink Lexington/Saipan.

1 Star: Sink Implacable.

1 Star: Sink 2 of the 3 targets called out by airfield.

1 Star: Sink all targets called by the airfield.

1 Star: Prevent Repair Base Capture.

 

Saving the forts made no sense to me, since the base was being abandoned anyway.  Plus it was extremely annoying that not only did the fires do 2200 hp a tic per fire, but that the forts would just "let it burn".  Instead, we'd be tasked with sinking the Implacable.  Saving 45 planes is an obvious "no go", so instead we'd be tasked with sinking all targets called by airfield.

 

 

Now, I'm fairly certain I've forgetten stuff, but it has been a while since UF was playable, and as you saw I'm no LWM in the write up.  But there is a very rough idea on how to make Ultimate Frontier a T8 Operation.  At this point it would be up to the dev's to put in the time and make these changes.  Ell, they could do away with the variety, making it even easier for them to make the changes and get it re-added.  Personally I'd like the variety to remain, it added spice, but it is something that could be sidelined if it would get the Op up and running again sooner.

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22 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

They took away scenarios and nerfed the remainder. You know, because they gave players too great a reward, unbalancing the game economy.

 

Then they gave us clan brawls. Good thing they got rid of all those modes with huge rewards, eh? 

They said operations weren't popular. Got lots of players on a Discord server I own that say otherwise. 

The devs love only one thing: T10. Everything else is simply trash. It sucks if you actually like the many things this game can offer and understand its fantastic potential. 

Not to be argumentative, but those "lots of players" on your Discord server mean nothing compared to the total player population that WG can "survey" by looking at their statistics.  Well, looking at the stats from before the release of the CV rework, since that was when all the missing ops went away.

Mind you, I miss those ops as well, and wish that WG would try to get them back in the game, even if it required removing CVs from the bot team and particularly their planes, since I think that that's the core of the problem, i.e. a usable AI for bot CV planes.  I will say though that I don't think that every missing op could be fixed and returned in this way.

For example, I have a hard time seeing Dunkirk work with the planes removed, since it seems like they'd have to replace them with more PT boats and possibly a small number of German DDs.  The tier 8 operation would seem rather odd without the carrier planes from the two airbases, though I suppose that it's doable.  BUT, it would also require the removal of the friendly team's CVs as well.  And replacing them with BBs would seem like overkill.  Perhaps replace the 2 friendly CV with 1 BB (or perhaps a pair of cruisers), and a pair of freighters to be the team's repair ships.

Much of this is doable, but would require some commitment by WG to get the work done.

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Narai rewards were nerfed but good results can still be had - if all flagged and cammo'd up - even with a four star win...

 

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12 hours ago, Skuggsja said:

I play randoms more than anything but if I'm frustrated or just trying to relax a bit more I've always loved scenarios. I really miss all the previous scenarios that were removed. 

Scenarios can be frustrating too, like a Killer Whale loss because most of the team goes the opposite way instead of to the exit, even when you are giving them the direction and location of the exit continuously at about 10 minutes before the scenario's end. A lot of people are so used to farming damage that the requirements are ignored. In this case, I suspect there was a northern exit point in a previous scenario they played and did not pay attention to the map or anything else and just sailed blindly north. However, they are still good for a change of pace and big base XP/credit earning.

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10 hours ago, Crucis said:

Not to be argumentative, but those "lots of players" on your Discord server mean nothing compared to the total player population that WG can "survey" by looking at their statistics.  Well, looking at the stats from before the release of the CV rework, since that was when all the missing ops went away.

Mind you, I miss those ops as well, and wish that WG would try to get them back in the game, even if it required removing CVs from the bot team and particularly their planes, since I think that that's the core of the problem, i.e. a usable AI for bot CV planes.  I will say though that I don't think that every missing op could be fixed and returned in this way.

For example, I have a hard time seeing Dunkirk work with the planes removed, since it seems like they'd have to replace them with more PT boats and possibly a small number of German DDs.  The tier 8 operation would seem rather odd without the carrier planes from the two airbases, though I suppose that it's doable.  BUT, it would also require the removal of the friendly team's CVs as well.  And replacing them with BBs would seem like overkill.  Perhaps replace the 2 friendly CV with 1 BB (or perhaps a pair of cruisers), and a pair of freighters to be the team's repair ships.

Much of this is doable, but would require some commitment by WG to get the work done.

It can be done but it would take work and they see no way to make money doing it. Funny, many people were buying SIms just for this operations, I was about to when they took it away. How many premiums could be marketed for operations if they wanted to sell ships? However, they see a lot of work for little profit so it wont happen. Not sure why operations fell out of favor, must have been change in management, because for a while they were pushing new operations out and it appeared everyone was exited out it.   

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I'd like to see more. Jutland '46 with all tier 10 battleships on both sides, Battle off Samar with the computer having six CV's and six DD's versus whatever the humans bring, tier 8-10. Ironbottom Sound as the Japanese, Coronel and Falklands strung together Tier 4,5.

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11 hours ago, Volron said:

Well, they can make a change to one to make it a T5 Op, Killer Whale.  Even with 5's, that one was reasonably easy to 5 star.  Obviously some changes are needed to it's current setup to make it more suitable for T5 however.  The docked Konig can be swapped for a stock Rhein.  Swap the Kaiser that spawns in the north in the first wave with a stock Nassau.  Keep Kawachi, but swap the Ishi with a stock Myogi or stock Hosho.  The rest of it could stay the same.

 

Ultimate Frontier can be made into a T8 Operation, with some RN spice added (NOTE: very rough idea):

The 3 Battleships encountered could be changed up from: Wyoming, New York and New Mexico to New York, New Mexico, California.  Their escort is brought up from a Pensacola to a New Orleans.

The two destroyers encountered very quickly, leave the Mahan, swap the Nicholas with a Jervis.

The Omaha and Atlanta that spawn North remain the same, but bump the Dallas that spawns E to a Surrey.

Leave the Clemson.

"Raptor's" Group would need a revamp.  It would no longer be Raptor (Ranger Class), but either a Lexington or Saipan, with a different name.  Add along side her an Implacable.  Protecting them will a Helena, Leander, Sims and Cossack.

The two Phoenix and one Omaha that spawns south, they could be left as is.  I cannot remember if they were stock gals or upgraded.  If they were stock, "max" them out.

The 3 Destroyers that appeared and went to capture the repair island, change from a Mahan, Nicolas, Sims, to, Mahan, Sims, Jevis.

 

The three main attack waves varied.  It would keep things interesting if they stayed that way:

The first wave consisted of either a 4/5/5 or 5/5/6, if I recall correctly.  I believe it was Phoenix/Omaha/Marblehead, or, Omaha/Marblehead/New Mexico.  Change that vary to 5/5/6 or 5/6/6.  Omaha, Marblehead, Pensacola/Dallas as the 5/5/6, or Omaha/Marblehead, Pensacola/Dallas, New Mexico as the 5/6/6.

The second wave consisted of either a 5/6/6 or a 5/6/7, if I recall correctly.  Omaha/Marblehead, Pensacola, New Mexico, or, Omaha, Pensacola, Colorado.  Change that vary to 6/6/6 or 6/6/7.  Pensacola, Dallas, New Mexico/Arizona/West Virginia as the 6/6/6, or, Pensacola, Dallas, Colorado/California/Florida as the 6/6/7.

The third wave only consisted of a 6/6/8, if I recall correctly.  The variance was in the battleship.  Pensacola, Dallas, North Carolina/Alabama.  Change to 6/7/8.  Pensacola/Dallas, New Orleans/Helena, North Carolina/Alabama/Massachusetts.

 

For the Transport aircraft, just have them come in all at once and have them randomly choose between the 3 flight paths that were in the RTS version.  For the airfields bombers, it can be said that they showed up the day/night before and were only now ready to do anything, if you want "story" behind that.  Have them cycle between the torpedo bombers and dive bombers once per attack wave, and have them a squadron attack all at once.  If I recall correctly they attacked each with 8 TB's split in two squadrons and 12 DB's split in two squadrons.  Have them attack with 1 TB of 6 planes in a single attack, 1 DB of 8 planes in a single attack.  Airfield will send out the DB's first, after attacking with them, send out the TB's next.

How "Raptor's group" would cycle.  They would attack the two southern forts until they are destroyed, or they are spotted by a surface ship.  Once their target forts are destroyed or spotted by a surface ship, they will begin to attack ships.  Have them cycle between each squadron type to avoid a complete drain on a single squadron.  IE: They would attack with their rocket planes, the bring in their dive bombers, followed lastly by their torpedo bombers.  Rinse and Repeat.

 

Now for the good bits, Stars.

Previously the stars were as followed:

1 Star: Save at least 3 forts.

1 Star: Sink 2 of the targets called out by the airfield.

1 Star: Save 45 planes from aircraft reinforcements.

1 Star: Sink Raptor.

1 Star: Prevent Repair Base capture.

 

Change to the following:

1 Star: Sink Lexington/Saipan.

1 Star: Sink Implacable.

1 Star: Sink 2 of the 3 targets called out by airfield.

1 Star: Sink all targets called by the airfield.

1 Star: Prevent Repair Base Capture.

 

Saving the forts made no sense to me, since the base was being abandoned anyway.  Plus it was extremely annoying that not only did the fires do 2200 hp a tic per fire, but that the forts would just "let it burn".  Instead, we'd be tasked with sinking the Implacable.  Saving 45 planes is an obvious "no go", so instead we'd be tasked with sinking all targets called by airfield.

 

 

Now, I'm fairly certain I've forgetten stuff, but it has been a while since UF was playable, and as you saw I'm no LWM in the write up.  But there is a very rough idea on how to make Ultimate Frontier a T8 Operation.  At this point it would be up to the dev's to put in the time and make these changes.  Ell, they could do away with the variety, making it even easier for them to make the changes and get it re-added.  Personally I'd like the variety to remain, it added spice, but it is something that could be sidelined if it would get the Op up and running again sooner.

@Hapa_Fodder @Gneisenau013  I know Scenarios are on the back burner, but could you pass this rough draft idea along?  Might be worth a shot. :Smile_Default:

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33 minutes ago, Mykawa said:

Not sure why operations fell out of favor,...

I think WG intended to bring back the removed ops, then the rework didn't go to plan.  There were people leaving the game, others that stopped spending, and more that went to co-op/PvE.  I believe WG saw PvE as a threat to lose players from randoms.  I believe that is why WG decided not to bring back the old ops, they didn't want to expand the content in PvE and possibly lose more players to PvE only.  Too bad, I think the ops are some of the better content in this game.

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6 minutes ago, Volron said:

@Hapa_Fodder @Gneisenau013  I know Scenarios are on the back burner, but could you pass this rough draft idea along?  Might be worth a shot. :Smile_Default:

I will definitely pass this along!

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My clan get together once a week (we usualy have at least 7) and playes operations. It helps us learn comms and focus fire and to work as a team. Having 7 guys we can also pick any scenerio we want to play and help anyone who hasnt 5 star get the one he needs.

 

Every week someone says he wishes we had more choices or at least brought back some of the older ones.

 

 

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32 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

I think WG intended to bring back the removed ops, then the rework didn't go to plan.  There were people leaving the game, others that stopped spending, and more that went to co-op/PvE.  I believe WG saw PvE as a threat to lose players from randoms.  I believe that is why WG decided not to bring back the old ops, they didn't want to expand the content in PvE and possibly lose more players to PvE only.  Too bad, I think the ops are some of the better content in this game.

I suspect this is probably true.  Especially since once you've played a scenario, you know whether or not there are CVs in it. And we have a fair number of players who would gladly play all day in the same scenario just to avoid CVs.  Or, if they are like me, they may not mind playing against CVs, but just want to know ahead of time whether or not CVs will be present.  That way you can load up on AA signals, take DFAA instead of hydro, etc, and know it's not all wasted.  I actually enjoyed the old scenario that involved tier VIII allied cruisers vs. Japanese ships, including a mass wave of planes.

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13 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

Count me in on any list pro: Operations, Historical Battles & New Game Modes

Ditto

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One of the most fun experiences I have had was in Savage Battles.  It checked all the right boxes fast fun and you could join with a small group of your friends.

Clan Brawls seem to be a good step but something that should be considered is extending the time periods.  People on the west coast who join in are pretty much out of luck if they chose to play in this game mode.  @Hapa_Fodder  I know the US is mostly on the East coast but extending that to 1-2AM might be a big deal for some of the west coast.  Right after the mode ended I saw a huge drop off of players on the server. 

I feel with all of the videos on Naval history and everything that are made WG would see, that in my eyes, the biggest customer base is people who are interested in this area of history.  The game is going further and further towards what all other twitchy FPS games are doing.  But in my opinion will never reach what they want without destroying the other aspects of the game.     I mean we know the average player age is no where near other games.  But then again most original gamers are now in there 30s-40s.  I mean every year they do combat missions for Historical battles.  Why not each year around the time of the anniversary of Dunkirk, D-Day, Jutland, Pearl Harbor, Coral Sea, Midway, Samar, Okinawa, Sinking of the Hood and Bismarck, even as far back as the Battle of Tsushima, include scenarios to be run during a 2 week time period with correct nation and tier ships.  Bring history back into the game instead of just on the website and youtube. 

The amount of operational scenarios they could run could be endless.  The most stale thing is playing randoms and co-op all the time.  If people aren't logging in to play they will never try to go to randoms.  If they log in to do an operation or 2 maybe they'll go out with a few friends after the operation into a random game or 2.  But if they don't even login then that will never happen.  Just giving people options to play will increase the player base.  But as it is now things are shrinking.  We just had this discussion last night on our discord.  That the game isn't headed in a productive direction and some of us are looking for something else to do to join in with our friends.  Submarines are the perfect scenario ship which can then open up Destroyer escorts.  And we all know that the BOTS can be made harder to entice more challenges and greater rewards. 

Edit:  I totally forgot that Scenarios and events could be PvP Scenarios and PvPvE as well.  And not like Randoms with bots in them but escorting surface ships and having opposing ships on each side.  Slightly more challenging to do without getting a bunch of people together but that all would require the player base to grow some more.

Edited by Raytesh

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16 hours ago, _No_One said:

Hi,

I'm wondering if we are the only one who are missing new "scenarios" or even historic battle which took place during World War II.  I will admit, I'm not the best player.  Mostly cause I like "when I play" to take things easy.  A glass of wine or a beer usually are required.  Frankly I don't feel like playing against other people, "with other people" YES, "against" NO.  Currently the game has become kind of a repeat.  I'd like to see Dunkirk again and other maps.  By the way the more higher tire your scenario will be, the more interesting we will be in buying new ship and probably leveling the others.   And by leveling the others I mean buying Flags, Perks, etc...

So a question I'm asking my self is how many people like to play scenarios?  We are never short in players.  I wonder if we also could have new ideas for Scenarios like Monsters, or maybe bigger team with way more enemies and what would people say to covert ops mission?  You must sink an enemy fleet with DD only (torpedoes).  But there is one or two carriers in the enemy fleet with there own DD and cruiser, etc..  Or maybe just sink key targets?

Give your thoughts about this and maybe we War Gaming will develop a game for everyone :)

For historic/realistic game modes That Other Game from the Snail Company is what you're looking for.

You. won't. find. i.t here. ever. WG has a thing for jumbling axis/allies and atlantic/pacific/mediterranean all together for the sake of quick and easy matchmaking.

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Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
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Not going to happen.

They already scrapped some of the better ones because of "CV rework".

Players ask since years to bring the old ones back and add some new.

Everytime there was a Q&A, this topic comes up. And always is the answer "Njet"

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8 minutes ago, Erebthoron said:

Not going to happen.

They already scrapped some of the better ones because of "CV rework".

Players ask since years to bring the old ones back and add some new.

Everytime there was a Q&A, this topic comes up. And always is the answer "Njet"

Yeah, well most don't even remotely give an idea on what can be changed to make them viable again.  At first I was the same, but then started thinking a bit more closely, hence a basic idea to make Killer Whale a T5 operation and the rough idea on how to make Ultimate Frontier a T8 operation.  Cherry Blossom, Dynamo and Hermes are fun and all, but I really dislike the class/nation restriction that is in them.  So I'm not going to think about those and how they could be revamped.

 

Ultimately, I am aware that those operations and future ones are on the back burner.  If they were off the list completely, Hapa would stated that it's not going to happen.  So there is some hope.:Smile_great:

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