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WOT history VS. WOWS direction, such a shame.

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I started WOT in beta approx. 10 years ago or so.  WG was kind of new to MMO wargames then, and completely new at making the first FPS tank game that I know of.  There was no competition to speak of, they were the first for a long time.  From their communications to the community, they were very cautious and unconfident at what they were doing, as it was like walking on the moon for the first time, there simply was nothing of its kind to learn from.  They were very humble, I even remember a letter to the community during beta that stated they didn't know what direction WOT would go in, they even mentioned that infantry was not out of the question, not kidding, the game was an open book that was being written as it went.  But they clearly were very thankful to the community.  Then the game blew up, millions of players started signing up from around the world, It was not long until they knew they had a gold mine.  And it was the end of the humble romance stage for WG and its players.  I remember this exact timeline to this day.  I was excited about the new game and what it had to offer currently and in the future, then it hit.  There was an early premium tank called the LOWE, it originally it sold for 7,500 gold, but after a "rework" of the economy, the LOWE's price jumped to 12,500 gold, and players were making approx. 25% less credits in battle than before, across all game modes and using any vehicle.  Soon there were about 4-5 more "reworks" of the economy, and players found themselves unable to play competitively at high tiers not only without premium time, but supplementing their income with premium tanks.  And one vehicle started to divide the entire community with the precision and power of a light sabre, it was called arty.  You see, arty was a vehicle that tossed a shell anywhere across the entire battlefield, early on it could one shot any tank, from behind a bush, at the back of the map, safe from any counter, as other arty players would not take the time to look for it hidden on the map.  And as more arty per team emerged, the community was more divided than ever, almost with distain toward each other, you were in the arty camp or not, there almost was no middle ground.  And WG let this go on to this day, "reworking" arty numerous times, but never fully fixing the issue.  Then, as this was going on, a pattern emerged.  WG would introduce obviously OP tier 10 tanks to the game in the regular tree, seemingly wait until impatient players spend $100's of dollars racing up the tree for the new tank, then nerf it around the 3-6 month period to balanced levels.  Players thought it was a mistake, but all vehicles go through testing on the test server where they are warned of the said OP strength, but the tanks would be released anyway.  This happened a dozen times or more, and the game got more and more expensive to compete as time went on.  Special tanks that players were told "will never return or be sold", would make their way back anyway.  Power creep started to plague the game, and old regular/premium tanks became obsolete.  Deals for festive events became more and more of well disguised money grab, far from the actual great deals presented in the early years.  And when WOWS came out, being worked on by different people even at the same company, my hopes were high that this game would not have the same fate, and they might be proving me wrong.

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22 minutes ago, WGreed said:

I started WOT in beta approx. 10 years ago or so.  WG was kind of new to MMO wargames then, and completely new at making the first FPS tank game that I know of.  There was no competition to speak of, they were the first for a long time.  From their communications to the community, they were very cautious and unconfident at what they were doing, as it was like walking on the moon for the first time, there simply was nothing of its kind to learn from.  They were very humble, I even remember a letter to the community during beta that stated they didn't know what direction WOT would go in, they even mentioned that infantry was not out of the question, not kidding, the game was an open book that was being written as it went.  But they clearly were very thankful to the community.  Then the game blew up, millions of players started signing up from around the world, It was not long until they knew they had a gold mine.  And it was the end of the humble romance stage for WG and its players.  I remember this exact timeline to this day.  I was excited about the new game and what it had to offer currently and in the future, then it hit.  There was an early premium tank called the LOWE, it originally it sold for 7,500 gold, but after a "rework" of the economy, the LOWE's price jumped to 12,500 gold, and players were making approx. 25% less credits in battle than before, across all game modes and using any vehicle.  Soon there were about 4-5 more "reworks" of the economy, and players found themselves unable to play competitively at high tiers not only without premium time, but supplementing their income with premium tanks.  And one vehicle started to divide the entire community with the precision and power of a light sabre, it was called arty.  You see, arty was a vehicle that tossed a shell anywhere across the entire battlefield, early on it could one shot any tank, from behind a bush, at the back of the map, safe from any counter, as other arty players would not take the time to look for it hidden on the map.  And as more arty per team emerged, the community was more divided than ever, almost with distain toward each other, you were in the arty camp or not, there almost was no middle ground.  And WG let this go on to this day, "reworking" arty numerous times, but never fully fixing the issue.  Then, as this was going on, a pattern emerged.  WG would introduce obviously OP tier 10 tanks to the game in the regular tree, seemingly wait until impatient players spend $100's of dollars racing up the tree for the new tank, then nerf it around the 3-6 month period to balanced levels.  Players thought it was a mistake, but all vehicles go through testing on the test server where they are warned of the said OP strength, but the tanks would be released anyway.  This happened a dozen times or more, and the game got more and more expensive to compete as time went on.  Special tanks that players were told "will never return or be sold", would make their way back anyway.  Power creep started to plague the game, and old regular/premium tanks became obsolete.  Deals for festive events became more and more of well disguised money grab, far from the actual great deals presented in the early years.  And when WOWS came out, being worked on by different people even at the same company, my hopes were high that this game would not have the same fate, and they might be proving me wrong.

The past few years of World of Warships has felt almost like the past few years of World of Tanks in terms of the amount of nonsense they have introduced to the game for futher monetization or "enjoyment." The small maps with too many islands even make this game feel like World of Tanks at times 

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31 minutes ago, WGreed said:

 Deals for festive events became more and more of well disguised money grab, far from the actual great deals presented in the early years.  And when WOWS came out, being worked on by different people even at the same company, my hopes were high that this game would not have the same fate, and they might be proving me wrong.

I did the same 10 years ago and yes, same company, same management and same business model. Only exception is the gold shells. I'm sure they were tempted.

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4 minutes ago, STINKWEED_ said:

I did the same 10 years ago and yes, same company, same management and same business model. Only exception is the gold shells. I'm sure they were tempted.

I think it is pee your pants funny how hard they worked on the armor system for every vehicle in the game, touted it like it was the coming of Jesus, then sold gold shells for literal gold that negated all of it.

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ahh i remember the whole type 59 debacle. when you could seal club tiers you had no business facing. lol!

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2 minutes ago, motaz87 said:

ahh i remember the whole type 59 debacle. when you could seal club tiers you had no business facing. lol!

Someone needs to do a controversies of Wargaming history series.

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1 minute ago, motaz87 said:

ahh i remember the whole type 59 debacle. when you could seal club tiers you had no business facing. lol!

T59 debacle? The Chinese tier 8 premium? I bought it when it first came out(first premium i owned actually), it wasnt what i took when i wanted to seal club, it saw tier 9s and 10s to often(at least during the time of day when i played.)

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17 minutes ago, WGreed said:

I think it is pee your pants funny how hard they worked on the armor system for every vehicle in the game, touted it like it was the coming of Jesus, then sold gold shells for literal gold that negated all of it.

 

It was even worse when the only way to get those shells was with real money. There was a time where the only way you could get premium rounds and premium consumables was with real money. You couldn't buy them with credits. I still have an enormous surplus of 90mm HVAP rounds that I bought for the M18 with real money back when it saw tier 9s because there was literally no other way to play against an IS-4. 

 

To be honest the game was better back then because people actually thought twice before sending skill rounds down range. But back then there was a 3 tier spread (when there was actual matchmaking. There was a time when there was no matchmaking at all) so sometimes sending a gold round was the difference between making or breaking a game. Now it's just all you really need to load up. Who cares if you lose credits? Besides the very minor normalization differences between subcaliber rounds and normal AP there's almost no reason to not fire APCR/SABOT/HVAP rounds. And then there's HEAT that deals max penetration at any range...

 

WoT has changed A LOT from it's earliest days - this coming from someone who was in the Russian-only alpha. 

 

But so has WoWS. And most of it hasn't been for the better. I miss the gunnery system the game used in alpha. I miss the separate above and below water health pools that made up the buoyancy mechanic.  I miss DDs with citadels. I miss below-waterline penetrations could cause flooding.  This game has just been one continual downward slope of dumbing down. It seems that every change they make is there to make the game easier. 

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10 minutes ago, Princess_Daystar said:

T59 debacle? The Chinese tier 8 premium? I bought it when it first came out(first premium i owned actually), it wasnt what i took when i wanted to seal club, it saw tier 9s and 10s to often(at least during the time of day when i played.)

 

When it first came out it had preferential matchmaking so it never saw 10s. It still has preferential matchmaking if I recall. When it first came out it basically had the tier 9 T-54's maneuverability. It was like a UFO. Which is why when it was 'new' you'd get teams made up almost entirely of Type 59s. They were ridiculously overpowered. 

 

You know the really sad thing about that though? It hasn't changed much. In fact it got buffed several times. When it got the updated 16 group armor model and then the HD rework model it got significantly stronger from the front. It got an alpha buff (with a small reload nerf) when it was normalized with the rest of the Chinese tech tree. It was still ridiculously strong back then (which is why it was ultimately removed from the store) but today, even though it's even better than it was when it was first released, it's considered mediocre and middling.

 

That's how big an impact power creep has had on WoT. WoWS has disgusting amounts of power creep but it can't hold a candle to Tanks.

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I remember the early days of WoT.  I was not in beta, but soon after it's release.  There were commercials on TV every day on this exciting new game.  It hooked me.  I came in and played a bunch.  Reluctantly I started to spend a little bit of money, even bought a little bit of gold shells.  The amounts are laughable compared to what I spent on WoWs, but it was enough to get me to take a longish break from tanks to go play some Diablo 3.  I was around T7 - T8 in heavy, medium and TD tanks.  Had a few premiums (That Jagdtiger is really slow - like a Colorado on treads).  Came back after that break and tried to pick up WoT again and found that the game had progressed to the point where everyone knew exactly where to sit in any map and all they did was complain about my play.  The salt was huge.  I gave it up and came to WoWs for good.  The one good thing that WoWs has over WoT is that you are not forced into randoms since you have the option of Coop and Operations.

If WoWs is going to really follow WoT in its tracks, then I will be one that will slowly be phasing out of here.  Hopefully it won't be for another year or two, but I don't see much in the way of new additional tech tree lines beyond RM BBs and DDs.  Maybe a few PA, PE, or South American lines.  Then what?  (And I am not talking about Subs or new CV lines either).

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I saw the end of WOT when the Skorpion G was introduced, it was one of the first blatantly overpowered when compared to the tech tree equivalent. 

After that, the premium tanks got more and more obscenely overpowered, ace I left not too long afterwards.

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1 minute ago, Rokkator said:

After that, the premium tanks got more and more obscenely overpowered, ace I left not too long afterwards.

 

Yeah for a while there the Scorpion G was the most played vehicle in the game. And yet people still denied it was OP..

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31 minutes ago, ramp4ge said:

 

It was even worse when the only way to get those shells was with real money. There was a time where the only way you could get premium rounds and premium consumables was with real money. You couldn't buy them with credits. I still have an enormous surplus of 90mm HVAP rounds that I bought for the M18 with real money back when it saw tier 9s because there was literally no other way to play against an IS-4. 

 

To be honest the game was better back then because people actually thought twice before sending skill rounds down range. But back then there was a 3 tier spread (when there was actual matchmaking. There was a time when there was no matchmaking at all) so sometimes sending a gold round was the difference between making or breaking a game. Now it's just all you really need to load up. Who cares if you lose credits? Besides the very minor normalization differences between subcaliber rounds and normal AP there's almost no reason to not fire APCR/SABOT/HVAP rounds. And then there's HEAT that deals max penetration at any range...

 

WoT has changed A LOT from it's earliest days - this coming from someone who was in the Russian-only alpha. 

 

But so has WoWS. And most of it hasn't been for the better. I miss the gunnery system the game used in alpha. I miss the separate above and below water health pools that made up the buoyancy mechanic.  I miss DDs with citadels. I miss below-waterline penetrations could cause flooding.  This game has just been one continual downward slope of dumbing down. It seems that every change they make is there to make the game easier. 

The one good difference between WOT and WOWS is that you can still do well much easier at bottom tier.  In WOT if you were the bottom tier 8 in a heavy tier 9/10 match, you had little chance to pen consistently without gold rounds.  I remember tier 10s completely disregarding me in my T8 and just running through me and past me like cheese, not a care that I would ever last long enough to be a real threat.

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22 minutes ago, ramp4ge said:

 

When it first came out it had preferential matchmaking so it never saw 10s. It still has preferential matchmaking if I recall. When it first came out it basically had the tier 9 T-54's maneuverability. It was like a UFO. Which is why when it was 'new' you'd get teams made up almost entirely of Type 59s. They were ridiculously overpowered. 

 

You know the really sad thing about that though? It hasn't changed much. In fact it got buffed several times. When it got the updated 16 group armor model and then the HD rework model it got significantly stronger from the front. It got an alpha buff (with a small reload nerf) when it was normalized with the rest of the Chinese tech tree. It was still ridiculously strong back then (which is why it was ultimately removed from the store) but today, even though it's even better than it was when it was first released, it's considered mediocre and middling.

 

That's how big an impact power creep has had on WoT. WoWS has disgusting amounts of power creep but it can't hold a candle to Tanks.

Ah, i platooned with a friend in regular tier 8s, so that explains the tier 10s i saw, i dont recall getting teams of t59s either(Again, bought it when first available), but i played at odd hours so that probably explains that too.

I know it got buffed a few times, and arguably those buffs where needed to keep it as "What you paid for",  but compared to other tanks, it wasnt all that great IMO, especially other premiums, and i had them all. That tank had several easily hit weakpoints(Turret hatches, Front of the turret by the gun, Lower front plate, the commanders viewport, the machine gun port on the turret), and even without gold rounds its lower front plate was laughably easily to penetrate for other tanks its tier. One thing i noticed though?

I quit WOT a few years ago, i got bored of winning(No im not kidding). when i left i had a 62%WR over the last 180 days(brought my WR up from 47% to 52% thank god). One thing i noticed in the final ~6k matches i played? Most players didnt bother to aim at weakpoints, and when they started slinging gold because they couldnt penetrate your armor they wouldnt be able to adjust if you re angled, gold rounds didnt auto pen and a steep angle would make them bounce too(I dont know if they changed this in the last ~3 years? its been awhile). With the addition of wheeled vehicles i wont go back though, dumb decision IMO.

Played this game at Beta and aside from the CV rebork it feels like the same game to me, even these new powerful ships arent broken, but i digress, long as gold rounds and gold consumables dont re appear in this game ill be good.

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2 hours ago, WGreed said:

I started WOT in beta approx. 10 years ago or so.  WG was kind of new to MMO wargames then, and completely new at making the first FPS tank game that I know of.  There was no competition to speak of, they were the first for a long time.  From their communications to the community, they were very cautious and unconfident at what they were doing, as it was like walking on the moon for the first time, there simply was nothing of its kind to learn from.  They were very humble, I even remember a letter to the community during beta that stated they didn't know what direction WOT would go in, they even mentioned that infantry was not out of the question, not kidding, the game was an open book that was being written as it went.  But they clearly were very thankful to the community.  Then the game blew up, millions of players started signing up from around the world, It was not long until they knew they had a gold mine.  And it was the end of the humble romance stage for WG and its players.  I remember this exact timeline to this day.  I was excited about the new game and what it had to offer currently and in the future, then it hit.  There was an early premium tank called the LOWE, it originally it sold for 7,500 gold, but after a "rework" of the economy, the LOWE's price jumped to 12,500 gold, and players were making approx. 25% less credits in battle than before, across all game modes and using any vehicle.  Soon there were about 4-5 more "reworks" of the economy, and players found themselves unable to play competitively at high tiers not only without premium time, but supplementing their income with premium tanks.  And one vehicle started to divide the entire community with the precision and power of a light sabre, it was called arty.  You see, arty was a vehicle that tossed a shell anywhere across the entire battlefield, early on it could one shot any tank, from behind a bush, at the back of the map, safe from any counter, as other arty players would not take the time to look for it hidden on the map.  And as more arty per team emerged, the community was more divided than ever, almost with distain toward each other, you were in the arty camp or not, there almost was no middle ground.  And WG let this go on to this day, "reworking" arty numerous times, but never fully fixing the issue.  Then, as this was going on, a pattern emerged.  WG would introduce obviously OP tier 10 tanks to the game in the regular tree, seemingly wait until impatient players spend $100's of dollars racing up the tree for the new tank, then nerf it around the 3-6 month period to balanced levels.  Players thought it was a mistake, but all vehicles go through testing on the test server where they are warned of the said OP strength, but the tanks would be released anyway.  This happened a dozen times or more, and the game got more and more expensive to compete as time went on.  Special tanks that players were told "will never return or be sold", would make their way back anyway.  Power creep started to plague the game, and old regular/premium tanks became obsolete.  Deals for festive events became more and more of well disguised money grab, far from the actual great deals presented in the early years.  And when WOWS came out, being worked on by different people even at the same company, my hopes were high that this game would not have the same fate, and they might be proving me wrong.

Remember when the top tier for arty was tier VI? S-51 was the top russian arty. Hummel was the top german. And even so, fighting at tier X, they were OP as hell.

 

Then, WG had the great idea of adding the tier VII ones. Schoolbus and the GW-Panther, as if the previous ones were OP enough. But at least arty could one shot the others, as the tracers were visible to anyone. Any team mate could pinpoint from where the arty shell came, and those skilled enough would counter the others. 

But as more SPGs were added, more and more of them crapped on the game, to the point we would have 15vs15 SPGs. That when WG finally realized something was very wrong with the easy mode clickers.

 

It is interesting that nearly 90% of the arguments used to defend the clickers are used here to defend CVs.

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1 hour ago, kyesac said:

I remember the early days of WoT.  I was not in beta, but soon after it's release.  There were commercials on TV every day on this exciting new game.  It hooked me.  I came in and played a bunch.  Reluctantly I started to spend a little bit of money, even bought a little bit of gold shells.  The amounts are laughable compared to what I spent on WoWs, but it was enough to get me to take a longish break from tanks to go play some Diablo 3.  I was around T7 - T8 in heavy, medium and TD tanks.  Had a few premiums (That Jagdtiger is really slow - like a Colorado on treads).  Came back after that break and tried to pick up WoT again and found that the game had progressed to the point where everyone knew exactly where to sit in any map and all they did was complain about my play.  The salt was huge.  I gave it up and came to WoWs for good.  The one good thing that WoWs has over WoT is that you are not forced into randoms since you have the option of Coop and Operations.

If WoWs is going to really follow WoT in its tracks, then I will be one that will slowly be phasing out of here.  Hopefully it won't be for another year or two, but I don't see much in the way of new additional tech tree lines beyond RM BBs and DDs.  Maybe a few PA, PE, or South American lines.  Then what?  (And I am not talking about Subs or new CV lines either).

WG will find ways to introduce more ships to this game. Look what they did with WoT with the variants and fantasy nonsense. We'll be seeing battlecruiser lines and Soviet CVs before they announce they have nothing left.

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31 minutes ago, EricT2015 said:

WG will find ways to introduce more ships to this game. Look what they did with WoT with the variants and fantasy nonsense. We'll be seeing battlecruiser lines and Soviet CVs before they announce they have nothing left.

 

They even started putting "stock" tanks a tier lower to sell as premiums. Like the Tiger 131/Type 6 Heavy, the T-54 Proto and the T26E3 (which is my favorite tank in the game). It's exactly what they started doing here with the likes of the Musashi, West Virginia, Mutsu, etc.

 

I was a US Medium main in WoT and the constant power creep that obsoleted my M26 finally made me give it up. They also nerfed the hell out of my M18. You can only break my toys for so long before I'm done. Or at least play much more casually. When I do play now it's just with the T26E3 at tier 7. The new upgrades basically filled in it's weaknesses and it's hilarious now. Especially when top tier.

 

 

 

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19 hours ago, EricT2015 said:

WG will find ways to introduce more ships to this game. Look what they did with WoT with the variants and fantasy nonsense. We'll be seeing battlecruiser lines and Soviet CVs before they announce they have nothing left.

I was not around for the fantasy stuff.  I left back in 2015 or 2016 for good. 

I would not object to Super Cruisers and Battlecruisers being lumped into a new ship class.  I play a lot of cruisers, super, heavy, and light and I am hoping (against hope probably) that the crusiers aren't going to be nerfed as badly as it sounds.

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21 hours ago, STINKWEED_ said:

I did the same 10 years ago and yes, same company, same management and same business model. Only exception is the gold shells. I'm sure they were tempted.

there is still time for premium ammo in WOWS.

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