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WGreed

A real solution to balancing CVs........

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  The reason it is so hard to balance CV's in this game is due to their having an airplane factory under the flight deck, hence all the "reworks".  All a CV player has to do is rotate the squads as they get replacements, and who cares about losses.  Along with AA being 70% as effective as it should be when fully specking it.  If a CV wants to focus and eliminate a target, it will, period, and you have no say in the matter.  All of this across the map, safe in the back, with no accountability.  Not exactly player friendly if you are not the one with the CV.  And where is the real counter to a CV, like all other ship types have?  They are too powerful and decisive for one player to command, this is a team game, the power distribution should be 1/12 for each player, CV's do not fit this model, deciding way too many games depending on the skill differential of the two CV players.

I propose a logical solution to the constant and mindless pounding you may get from a CV at times, and their seemingly endless supply of planes.  Make their aircraft loadout finite.  Lets say a T10 carrier starts with 80-100 planes, and they will NOT be replaced.  You can still have a timer to receive replacements if needed, simulating bringing them up from the hanger, but once all of your aircraft are gone, that's it, so you better actually use them wisely.   This makes AA MUCH easier to balance in relation to CV's.  Take the DM for example.  You can balance it so if it is fully specked it may shoot  approx. 4-6 planes during an attack.  Another ship with usually bad AA may only shoot down 1-2.  When grouped up, the best ship uses the full number, all other ships in AA range use 1/3 of theirs, with a min of 1.  Now the CV has to make an actual decision with accountability, does he attack a group of 4 ships and possibly lose the entire squad, or attack a lone ship and lose only 2 or 3, and wait until the group breaks up.  Because right now, it seems like CV players can just dive right into large groups at will and still be a overpowering force at the end of the game.  And instead of those shot down aircraft ribbons meaning almost nothing, you know you have dealt the CV a tangible blow with good AA.  This would make specking AA  much more viable and attractive, while making the CV a perishable entity, punishing foolish players instead of rewarding them with OP CV's, and the good players having to make hard decisions and work for their victory.

Edited by WGreed
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7 minutes ago, WGreed said:

  The reason it is so hard to balance CV's in this game is due to their having an airplane factory under the flight deck, hence all the "reworks".  All a CV player has to do is rotate the squads as they get replacements, and who cares about losses.  Along with AA being 70% as effective as it should be when fully specking it.  If a CV wants to focus and eliminate a target, it will, period, and you have no say in the matter.  All of this across the map, safe in the back, with no accountability.  Not exactly player friendly if you are not the one with the CV.  And where is the real counter to a CV, like all other ship types have?  They are too powerful and decisive for one player to command, this is a team game, the power distribution should be 1/12 for each player, CV's do not fit this model, deciding way too many games depending on the skill differential of the two CV players.

I propose a logical solution to the constant and mindless pounding you may get from a CV at times, and their seemingly endless supply of planes.  Make their aircraft loadout finite.  Lets say a T10 carrier starts with 80-100 planes, and they will NOT be replaced.  You can still have a timer to receive replacements if needed, simulating bringing them up from the hanger, but once your 100 are gone, that's it, so you better actually use them wisely.   This makes AA MUCH easier to balance in relation to CV's.  Take the DM for example.  You can balance it so if it is fully specked it may shoot  approx. 4-6 planes during an attack.  Another ship with usually bad AA may only shoot down 1-2.  When grouped up, the best ship uses the full number, all other ships in AA range use 1/3 of theirs, with a min of 1.  Now the CV has to make an actual decision with accountability, does he attack a group of 4 ships and possibly lose the entire squad, or attack a lone ship and lose only 2 or 3, and wait until the group breaks up.  Because right now, it seems like CV players can just dive right into large groups at will and still be a overpowering force at the end of the game.  And instead of those shot down aircraft ribbons meaning almost nothing, you know you have dealt the CV a tangible blow with good AA.  

This is actually or technically the case since CV have a cap on the number of airplanes that they have and they do recover planes after certain amount of time.

 

So an example would be let's say it takes 30 seconds to recover 1 plane. In a 15 minute game they can only at max regenerate 30 planes and that's only if they keep lost a plane on the get go.

 

I think AA in general should be a buffed to the point that there are "No fly zones" ships or if there's a group of them.

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Just now, Newtype said:

This is actually or technically the case since CV have a cap on the number of airplanes that they have and they do recover planes after certain amount of time.

 

So an example would be let's say it takes 30 seconds to recover 1 plane. In a 15 minute game they can only at max regenerate 30 planes and that's only if they keep lost a plane on the get go.

 

I think AA in general should be a buffed to the point that there are "No fly zones" ships or if there's a group of them.

Then maybe they need to lengthen the time of replacements.  It just seems that the carrier can constantly do attack runs for the entire game.

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This was the situation before the rework; fixed hangar capacity meant that many CV players would get deplaned one way or another and complain that they had nothing to do for the rest of the game.

The rework, among other things, introduced mechanics that ensured that aircraft would be available throughout the game, both by regeneration of aircraft and by transference of effective AA from surface combatant ships to carriers. 

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So how does this solve your problem of it not being friendly for the attacked ship? Cause you're still getting attacked from something far away. 

You mention also that they can keep cycling planes over and over, who cares. Do you base this off your own experience of flying the planes or it feels like that on the receiving end?

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A simple fix might just be better rewards for spotting. At the moment it's hardly anything. If Cvs were given more points for spotting and scouting they might be more inclined not to attack so often.

 A game last night I was in my Shokaku in a tier 10 cruiser dominated game. Not much I could effectively attack so I just played passively and spotted, ended up with a win with a low 18k damage but 160k spotting damage. Yet my score was abysmal...

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3 minutes ago, LunchCutter said:

A simple fix might just be better rewards for spotting. At the moment it's hardly anything. If Cvs were given more points for spotting and scouting they might be more inclined not to attack so often.

 A game last night I was in my Shokaku in a tier 10 cruiser dominated game. Not much I could effectively attack so I just played passively and spotted, ended up with a win with a low 18k damage but 160k spotting damage. Yet my score was abysmal...

Oh dude I had 300k recently and I don't feel I was awarded at all for it. If they increased it, and decreased damage output, I'd be fine with it. Until then, I'm generally just focusing one side and outputting damage as much as possible

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On a side note, I've been having this simple idea for awhile.

How about having a multiplier for the amount of damage AA inflicts on aircraft based on the number of ships firing at it?

 

If aircraft is currently in 1 AA bubble (that is fired on by one ship), the normal damage (1X) applies.

If aircraft is currently in 2 AA bubbles (fired on by 2 ships), it receives 1.2X damage.

If aircraft is in 3 AA bubbles, it receives 1.5X damage etc...

 

Something like this. Obviously the actual numbers would need testing and tweaking but I think this could bring more tactical choices and variety in gameplay.

 

Do you spread out to get more map control, better chances for crossfire?

Or do you bunch up a bit more to get the AA bonus?

 

Well, that's the basic idea.

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57 minutes ago, Pugilistic said:

This was the situation before the rework; fixed hangar capacity meant that many CV players would get deplaned one way or another and complain that they had nothing to do for the rest of the game.

The rework, among other things, introduced mechanics that ensured that aircraft would be available throughout the game, both by regeneration of aircraft and by transference of effective AA from surface combatant ships to carriers. 

One of the main reasons CV's have aircraft available throughout the match is they can't have as many aircraft up at one time. RTS a Shokaku could have up to 28 aircraft up at the same time, Today she can have no more than 10. Your planes are measured out to you..

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30 minutes ago, WarStore said:

You cannot balance cancer. You make it more or less cancerous, but never balanced. It is a [edited] mechanic and will it will continue to be forever, for as long as this crap exists. 

Well this game is set mainly in WW2 and CVs were a major factor in WW2 naval combat. They were the game changer.

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40 minutes ago, WarStore said:

You cannot balance cancer.

This. 

Besides, you can not mix oranges with apples. This is a oranges game where apples have nothing to do. Even in reality one "fruit" displaced the other. 

There is a reason why people report CV players you know...

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CVs are toxic, and the only balance for them is either neutering them or removing them to their own mode.

 

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1 hour ago, WGreed said:

  The reason it is so hard to balance CV's in this game is due to their having an airplane factory under the flight deck, hence all the "reworks".  All a CV player has to do is rotate the squads as they get replacements, and who cares about losses.  Along with AA being 70% as effective as it should be when fully specking it.  If a CV wants to focus and eliminate a target, it will, period, and you have no say in the matter.  All of this across the map, safe in the back, with no accountability.  Not exactly player friendly if you are not the one with the CV.  And where is the real counter to a CV, like all other ship types have?  They are too powerful and decisive for one player to command, this is a team game, the power distribution should be 1/12 for each player, CV's do not fit this model, deciding way too many games depending on the skill differential of the two CV players.

I propose a logical solution to the constant and mindless pounding you may get from a CV at times, and their seemingly endless supply of planes.  Make their aircraft loadout finite.  Lets say a T10 carrier starts with 80-100 planes, and they will NOT be replaced.  You can still have a timer to receive replacements if needed, simulating bringing them up from the hanger, but once all of your aircraft are gone, that's it, so you better actually use them wisely.   This makes AA MUCH easier to balance in relation to CV's.  Take the DM for example.  You can balance it so if it is fully specked it may shoot  approx. 4-6 planes during an attack.  Another ship with usually bad AA may only shoot down 1-2.  When grouped up, the best ship uses the full number, all other ships in AA range use 1/3 of theirs, with a min of 1.  Now the CV has to make an actual decision with accountability, does he attack a group of 4 ships and possibly lose the entire squad, or attack a lone ship and lose only 2 or 3, and wait until the group breaks up.  Because right now, it seems like CV players can just dive right into large groups at will and still be a overpowering force at the end of the game.  And instead of those shot down aircraft ribbons meaning almost nothing, you know you have dealt the CV a tangible blow with good AA.  This would make specking AA  much more viable and attractive, while making the CV a perishable entity, punishing foolish players instead of rewarding them with OP CV's, and the good players having to make hard decisions and work for their victory.

CVs have infinite planes but squadrons get weaker and weaker over time as regeneration isn't replacing the initial stock in the hangars. After, it is possible to delay this by dropping ordnance the first minutes, squadrons are then smaller, but enough to spot and eventually chase some lonely DD.
What you explain is true, if a CV decides to target one single taget, he will destroy it.
Meanwhile, the red CV will spot, protect the caps, zones, attack a few weak, add punch were needed, etc and the reds will win. Otherwise said, a CV targeting ONE ship is not a realistic scenario.
If too many planes are used, CVs get "deplaned", that means last squadrons are one or two planes, useful only to spot, not attack as AA will shoot them down.
Then, I read very often, CVs stay behing an island, somehow unreachable. Again, a CV driver will not do that. Moving the CV closer helps to bring planes faster where they are needed... and in terms of "playing experience", being far means spend half of the playing time bringing planes from one corner of the map to the center.
I am a CV player but I play the other ships, more DDs than others, and I have no problem with the planes. I just look at the minimap... and avoid to be detected. As a DD driver I tend to fear more radar than planes.
I will not push you to grind a CV line... but at least try a TIV one, just to understand the basics.
Ah, yes... I forgot, "Oink!".
Goltz.

:CV:

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42 minutes ago, LunchCutter said:

Well this game is set mainly in WW2 and CVs were a major factor in WW2 naval combat. They were the game changer.

So the game should'nt be balanced and CV should be overpowered. Got it. 

Are you actually a dev on your alt account? 

Edited by Pugilistic
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Nope, play the game that exists, not the one in your myopic fantasies. 

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The only way to balance CVs is to make a really fun game mode that is exclusively for CVs. 

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2 hours ago, Newtype said:

So an example would be let's say it takes 30 seconds to recover 1 plane. In a 15 minute game they can only at max regenerate 30 planes and that's only if they keep lost a plane on the get go.

If you are going make an example use actual true numbers instead made up ones because not even tier 4 CVs has 30 second regen on planes let alone high tier CV :fish_sleep:  You CV haters love exaggerating stuff to make your points about CV been OP valid :Smile_teethhappy:

 

2 hours ago, Merc_R_Us said:

So how does this solve your problem of it not being friendly for the attacked ship? Cause you're still getting attacked from something far away. 

You mention also that they can keep cycling planes over and over, who cares. Do you base this off your own experience of flying the planes or it feels like that on the receiving end?

 

Cycling planes won't work because each class of attack plane was made for a specific target won't work on other targets for certain CVs :Smile_sceptic:

 

Edited by LastRemnant
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3 hours ago, WGreed said:

  The reason it is so hard to balance CV's in this game is due to their having an airplane factory under the flight deck, hence all the "reworks".  All a CV player has to do is rotate the squads as they get replacements, and who cares about losses.  Along with AA being 70% as effective as it should be when fully specking it.  If a CV wants to focus and eliminate a target, it will, period, and you have no say in the matter.  All of this across the map, safe in the back, with no accountability.  Not exactly player friendly if you are not the one with the CV.  And where is the real counter to a CV, like all other ship types have?  They are too powerful and decisive for one player to command, this is a team game, the power distribution should be 1/12 for each player, CV's do not fit this model, deciding way too many games depending on the skill differential of the two CV players.

I propose a logical solution to the constant and mindless pounding you may get from a CV at times, and their seemingly endless supply of planes.  Make their aircraft loadout finite.  Lets say a T10 carrier starts with 80-100 planes, and they will NOT be replaced.  You can still have a timer to receive replacements if needed, simulating bringing them up from the hanger, but once all of your aircraft are gone, that's it, so you better actually use them wisely.   This makes AA MUCH easier to balance in relation to CV's.  Take the DM for example.  You can balance it so if it is fully specked it may shoot  approx. 4-6 planes during an attack.  Another ship with usually bad AA may only shoot down 1-2.  When grouped up, the best ship uses the full number, all other ships in AA range use 1/3 of theirs, with a min of 1.  Now the CV has to make an actual decision with accountability, does he attack a group of 4 ships and possibly lose the entire squad, or attack a lone ship and lose only 2 or 3, and wait until the group breaks up.  Because right now, it seems like CV players can just dive right into large groups at will and still be a overpowering force at the end of the game.  And instead of those shot down aircraft ribbons meaning almost nothing, you know you have dealt the CV a tangible blow with good AA.  This would make specking AA  much more viable and attractive, while making the CV a perishable entity, punishing foolish players instead of rewarding them with OP CV's, and the good players having to make hard decisions and work for their victory.

40 Battles and already solved the mystery of CV balance...   Is it just me or do alt accts just really feel the need to post about CVs? 

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3 hours ago, WGreed said:

  The reason it is so hard to balance CV's

Quote

airplane factory under the flight deck

I've never actually been on a carrier but I do know how they work. You do realize that not all of a carrier's planes are stored on the flight deck, don't you?

Quote

who cares about losses

That would be me.

image.thumb.png.50150da7b9526b2d5e47bed1

Quote

If a CV wants to focus and eliminate a target, it will, period

My Massy disagrees with that statement. I wasn't sunk by the carrier, BTW, I was sunk late in the game by a battleship.

image.png.92ea466d466c8fefc9dacfae0545d2

Quote

They are too powerful and decisive for one player to command

That's why they did the rework. 

Quote

skill differential

How's the reroll and bashing all those new players and bots at tier II going?

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1 hour ago, franz_von_goltz said:

CVs have infinite planes

CVs in WOWS have a finite amount of planes; they can't re-generate an infinite number of planes in a finite amount of time. 

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CV mafia/WeeGee employees on alt accounts upon reading title

EnlightenedPoisedBeetle-size_restricted.gif

Take that constructive criticism somewhere else, there's no room for that on this forum!

At least allow one or two upvotes so it's not so obvious that part is rigged. One would think they would have learned something from the Santa crate fiasco or is it the hubris on display...

Edited by OuijaApologist
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56 minutes ago, PotatoMD said:

The only way to balance CVs is to make a really fun game mode that is exclusively for CVs. 

:cap_tea:That would be a bad idea.

Edited by 9TenSix2Eight

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1 hour ago, LastRemnant said:

If you are going make an example use actual true numbers instead made up ones because not even tier 4 CVs has 30 second regen on planes let alone high tier CV :fish_sleep:  You CV haters love exaggerating stuff to make your points about CV been OP valid :Smile_teethhappy:

 

 

Cycling planes won't work because each class of attack plane was made for a specific target won't work on other targets for certain CVs :Smile_sceptic:

 

I don't play CVs really, I was just trying to make a point across that there's already limited number of planes a CV have per game.

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2 hours ago, LunchCutter said:

Well this game is set mainly in WW2.......

No, not really.

2 hours ago, LunchCutter said:

... and CVs were a major factor in WW2 naval combat.

That's true, but....there is magnitude scale difference regarding map scales, ranges, and speeds between RL and wows. Plus plane spotting had to be radioed back so...no instant targeting and alike b.s.

 

2 hours ago, LunchCutter said:

They were the game changer.

Yeah well...maybe they will sink wows too.

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1 hour ago, Pugilistic said:

So the game should'nt be balanced and CV should be overpowered. Got it. 

Are you actually a dev on your alt account? 

I know balance is very important but there is limit on how much the most powerful naval class can take. At the moment AA damage is erratic and there should only be 1 cv per side. Also need to factor in so many players have absolutely zero situation awareness. I attacked a Tirpitz yesterday. He made no attempt to dodge the torps and was far to busy trying do dual long range with an enemy ship, it wasn't until my 3rd set of torps were dropped that he actually tried to avoid and prioritise his AA. Same with many other captains, they become so target fixated they rarely look at the map or skies and have no idea they are getting bombed until it's to late. 

 When I'm in my DDs I find Radar cruisers the biggest danger, followed by enemy DDs then Cvs. They only seem to get me if I don't pay attention to the map.

.

 

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