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General_Lee_Miserable

Let's Talk Z44

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How do others feel about this thing? I'm feeling underwhelmed at the moment. It's not a lot of fun to play. It just feels like it's missing something. Longer smoke? Hydro? Quicker reload on the guns? 

Having a little buyers remorse at the moment. Feel free to share your captain builds and equipment loadouts. 

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1 hour ago, General_Lee_Miserable said:

How do others feel about this thing? I'm feeling underwhelmed at the moment. It's not a lot of fun to play. It just feels like it's missing something. Longer smoke? Hydro? Quicker reload on the guns? 

Having a little buyers remorse at the moment. Feel free to share your captain builds and equipment loadouts. 

I love the Germans dds , I have the z35,z39,t61 but passed this one up so far because of the lack of hydro. I personally do best in ships that can confidently attack at least 2 classes with confidence....the Germans fit this criteria because with hydro they can do well against other nations dds if you use hydro correctly then attack cruisers/ with ok torps and great HE pen...French dds with reload booster for dds , speed and drive by deletion torps for BBs...so both can confidently attack 2 classes....z44 without hydro seems like a 1 class attacker.....torps and great HE pen can punish bigger ships but no answers for DDs without hydro...this is my long answer to why she doesn't make it to my port...I'll be watching to hear how others feel...

Edited by Meta_Man

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I'm sure I'll end up grabbing it with coal once I've saved enough back up unless something better comes along. However, she isnt all that appealing because it's more of the copy paste type of ship theyve been doing with little alterations. Basically it seems like it's just an IJN DD with a German flag.

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2 hours ago, General_Lee_Miserable said:

How do others feel about this thing? I'm feeling underwhelmed at the moment. It's not a lot of fun to play. It just feels like it's missing something. Longer smoke? Hydro? Quicker reload on the guns? 

Having a little buyers remorse at the moment. Feel free to share your captain builds and equipment loadouts. 

I have this DD in my queue to go over in detail to check her over.  Most of my concerns are her low gun DPM,  poor concealment for a torp boat.  Most DDs are balanced on the premise that the more gun DPM they have the more visible they are.  Many German DDs violate this but only squeak by due to their smoke hydro combo that makes rushing them risky.

I have heard this is further compounded by poor shooting angles on the guns forcing you to decide between fighting at an angle that makes you hard to hit it full DPM potential.

Looking over the stats I have the same concerns I had over Benham.  Excellent torps in Benham’s case a crazy amount, but a ship with its general utility crippled due to failures in the gun DPM to concealment that makes getting into position to actually use those torps efficiently a matter of luck or fairly difficult compared to their torp boats peers.

Edited by Destroyer_KuroshioKai
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3 hours ago, General_Lee_Miserable said:

How do others feel about this thing? I'm feeling underwhelmed at the moment. It's not a lot of fun to play. It just feels like it's missing something. Longer smoke? Hydro? Quicker reload on the guns? 

Having a little buyers remorse at the moment. Feel free to share your captain builds and equipment loadouts. 

Personally I don't play KM DDs, but by her review, Z-44 brings the old Minekaze gameplay to t9. That's to say, this ship is effective against any ship that cannot out spot or out run you.

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If you play it as only a long range torp spammer and don't attempt to engage other DDs, you'll probably do okay (as long as the other team cooperates), otherwise yeah, it gives up a LOT for that torp reload, probably more then it needed too.

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I have it, I suck in it as I do in all my ships. I like it....a lot. 

It is challenging

If ships weren't a challenge I don't think I would play. That is the fun for me.

The torpedoes don't hit hard, but you have 12km of range to keep some people back or away, that fire quickly. the guns aren't bad, but the angles keep you from shooting all of them without giving away your side. 

The HE is meh but the AP is really good

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No hydro

Slow turning

Poor gun handling

Wide hull so its easily hit from fore and aft

Low damage torps

Poor HE dps =

 

Yep its a German boat alright! Keep spending that money.

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8 hours ago, Zenn3k said:

If you play it as only a long range torp spammer and don't attempt to engage other DDs, you'll probably do okay (as long as the other team cooperates), otherwise yeah, it gives up a LOT for that torp reload, probably more then it needed too.

So, you mean, not doing DD job? Like some asashio players just going round the sides, not scouting letting his team get sunk, and spamming from away? Ohhhhh....so nice and helpful style.

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24 minutes ago, derzwerge said:

So, you mean, not doing DD job? Like some asashio players just going round the sides, not scouting letting his team get sunk, and spamming from away? Ohhhhh....so nice and helpful style.

I’m sorry, I’d rather have an Asashio player use the strengths of their ship to stack damage and turn aside the enemy BBs than try to contest caps and mix it up with other DDs. Not every example of every class plays the same role. 

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10 hours ago, Bortt said:

@Destroyer_KuroshioKai Have you posted anything about Z-35? Just wondering what your take is. Got it in a crate. Now I need to figure out how to play it. 

Its a fun ship for me, some good games, some bad ones, but I enjoy the ship. (sorry for my english). And maybe try the 44 when have enough coal :cap_horn:

 

shot-20.12.07_00.22.21-0486.jpg

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1 hour ago, SkaerKrow said:

I’m sorry, I’d rather have an Asashio player use the strengths of their ship to stack damage and turn aside the enemy BBs than try to contest caps and mix it up with other DDs. Not every example of every class plays the same role. 

Asashio is one of the best scouting ships in the game.  Playing it on the fringe is a huge disservice to your team.  When I play my Asashio I am in close to the caps spotting as much as possible and using torps at much closer ranges to farm BBs. I don't pick fights with other DDs but rather will keep them lit as much as possible; guns are a last resort or if I can use them without undue risk to myself. 

Z44 isn't well suited for that kind of play because of relatively poor concealment, meh smoke and no hydro.  I'm not sure describing Z44 as a torp spammer is entirely accurate, but its definitely not a hybrid or gunboat.  Either way, not a ship I am particularly interested in.

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Guns are poor. Compare with quintessential IJN torp boat Yug at same tier...

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2 hours ago, derzwerge said:

So, you mean, not doing DD job? Like some asashio players just going round the sides, not scouting letting his team get sunk, and spamming from away? Ohhhhh....so nice and helpful style.

I mean, you can try and torp the DD if you want, I get a hit once in awhile, but you'll just lose the knife fight if you attempt to engage, so its best to not do that.

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Z-44 is supposed to be a torpedo boat. The guns are terrible.

It has fairly fast reloading tarps with 12km range.

The problem is the torpedoes have very low damage and average speed.

Extra range is not that helpful if the tarps are too slow.

Imo the torpedo speed needs a slight buff.

 

‘Full disclosure - I do not own the Z-44 but I have all the other German DDs.

 

 

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11 hours ago, SkaerKrow said:

I’m sorry, I’d rather have an Asashio player use the strengths of their ship to stack damage and turn aside the enemy BBs than try to contest caps and mix it up with other DDs. Not every example of every class plays the same role. 

Well i dont agree at all. DDs are for scouting in this game. The same with gunships like kitakaze or harugumo, their players thing their only job is to smoke up and spam, forgetting what they are really.  Asashio by doing so still sucks. I dont do it and look at how good i am at it.

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12 hours ago, SkaerKrow said:

I’m sorry, I’d rather have an Asashio player use the strengths of their ship to stack damage and turn aside the enemy BBs than try to contest caps and mix it up with other DDs

While I agree with you that that's not the Asashio's job, I've seen the extreme case he's talking about and he has a valid point. It's still the equal-stealthiest DD in its MM bracket, but it's also one of the most horribly misused ships in the game.

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14 hours ago, derzwerge said:

So, you mean, not doing DD job? Like some asashio players just going round the sides, not scouting letting his team get sunk, and spamming from away? Ohhhhh....so nice and helpful style.

While I don't claim to be one of "those Asashio people" the ship does have issues, particularly in PvE. Lauching torps at bow on ships does not work well since the torp spreads tend to be wide. To get a broadside shot you need to be well ahead of you team because the torps go a long way and it is easy for a team member to blunder into them on the other side of the map.

One way to mitigate that is plan to have your torps hit an island if they mis the target.

The BB Champagne plays a little like that too.

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23 hours ago, Zenn3k said:

If you play it as only a long range torp spammer and don't attempt to engage other DDs, you'll probably do okay (as long as the other team cooperates), otherwise yeah, it gives up a LOT for that torp reload, probably more then it needed too.

I see people say that, but hte reality is thats a hallmark of a busted ship.

It is not enough for a DD to just spam torps.  Most everyone knows what a failure max range 20km Shima torp chuckers are.  DDs also need to be able to screen out other DDs and thats where gun DPM to concealment ratio becomes critical in this interaction.  Even one of my most hated torp boats in the game, Asashio can perform this function by positioning itself in front of support and use its superior concealment to zone enemy DDs out until they are whittled down enough they can take the fight.

Z-44 is squarely in the same trash pile as Yudiachi, Benham, and a few others.  They can work, but for general utility there is much better options.

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11 hours ago, CaptainTeddybear said:

Z-44 is supposed to be a torpedo boat. The guns are terrible.

It has fairly fast reloading tarps with 12km range.

The problem is the torpedoes have very low damage and average speed.

Extra range is not that helpful if the tarps are too slow.

Imo the torpedo speed needs a slight buff.

 

‘Full disclosure - I do not own the Z-44 but I have all the other German DDs.

 

 

This does not fix the failure point in the ship.

Having played a few games in her last night the precise failure point as predicted lies in its gun DPM to concealment ratio.  Detection wise its on par with Kitakaze and Harugumo.  Its out spotted by a large margin by Jutland and Fletcher, both of which stomp it in the gun department anyways.  Even a Shima is going to chew it up in the gun department to put it into perspective, and Shima out spots it by a mile.

All German DDs have this failure point, but this failure point is bandaged over with smoke/hydro that offers them some options to fight with the deck in their favor if they have the consumables ready.  However Z-44 for whatever reason was not given hydro, so its failures in the gun department become crippling.

The guns themselves fail on two areas.  HE DPM and more important usable DPM when fighting.  This ship has some of the most narrow max DPM field of fire I have seen.  To actually kite at a usable angle forces you to lose at least 1/5 of your DPM, probably more.  This one one of the lowest gun DPM ships in the tier is unacceptable.  Period.

To repair this WG should either fix the turret angles to permit actual kiting.  Since the ship doesnt have hydro she's going to generally want to kite in a fight.

Failing that give the ship Z-46 hydro, though my thoughts on rebalancing the entire German DD line to match the tempo of the game with the CV rework very much applies.  If you missed that post its summed up with giving all German DDs smokes modeled on Z-35 (many short duration short cool down sort of like RN DD smoke) the game just moves far faster than when German DDs were originally implemented.  Add an offensive hydro that fluctuates run time depending on tier.  T6 and 7 should have 5km hydro while maintaining their much larger surface concealment to reflect the lack of radar in many of  these games in the MMing spread.  T8 to 10 should be unified at 6.2km concealment with 6km hydro to maximize offensive hydro potential.  Radar and CVs will keep this from becoming OP as will the German DDs generally having terrible HE gun DPM at these tiers.  This leaves Lo Yang still well suited with 5.5km hydro and 5.8km concealment offering a good blend of concealment and hydro.

Doing this can leave the poor gun handling issues of German DDs in place as a balancing feature in open water DD fights, but offer more diverse game play across the line.

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Play like a mini-cruiser (do not go for cap till you have backup) and you will be fine. 

All German DDs have very similar mini-cruiser playstyle.

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23 minutes ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

This does not fix the failure point in the ship.

Having played a few games in her last night the precise failure point as predicted lies in its gun DPM to concealment ratio.  Detection wise its on par with Kitakaze and Harugumo.  Its out spotted by a large margin by Jutland and Fletcher, both of which stomp it in the gun department anyways.  Even a Shima is going to chew it up in the gun department to put it into perspective, and Shima out spots it by a mile.

All German DDs have this failure point, but this failure point is bandaged over with smoke/hydro that offers them some options to fight with the deck in their favor if they have the consumables ready.  However Z-44 for whatever reason was not given hydro, so its failures in the gun department become crippling.

The guns themselves fail on two areas.  HE DPM and more important usable DPM when fighting.  This ship has some of the most narrow max DPM field of fire I have seen.  To actually kite at a usable angle forces you to lose at least 1/5 of your DPM, probably more.  This one one of the lowest gun DPM ships in the tier is unacceptable.  Period.

To repair this WG should either fix the turret angles to permit actual kiting.  Since the ship doesnt have hydro she's going to generally want to kite in a fight.

Failing that give the ship Z-46 hydro, though my thoughts on rebalancing the entire German DD line to match the tempo of the game with the CV rework very much applies.  If you missed that post its summed up with giving all German DDs smokes modeled on Z-35 (many short duration short cool down sort of like RN DD smoke) the game just moves far faster than when German DDs were originally implemented.  Add an offensive hydro that fluctuates run time depending on tier.  T6 and 7 should have 5km hydro while maintaining their much larger surface concealment to reflect the lack of radar in many of  these games in the MMing spread.  T8 to 10 should be unified at 6.2km concealment with 6km hydro to maximize offensive hydro potential.  Radar and CVs will keep this from becoming OP as will the German DDs generally having terrible HE gun DPM at these tiers.  This leaves Lo Yang still well suited with 5.5km hydro and 5.8km concealment offering a good blend of concealment and hydro.

Doing this can leave the poor gun handling issues of German DDs in place as a balancing feature in open water DD fights, but offer more diverse game play across the line.

I was trying to be charitable, although I did say the guns are terrible.

 
‘The entire German DD line needs an overhaul.

‘HE Damage is very  low and the AP either overpens or bounces.

‘The hydro is mostly useless with the explosion in radar.

‘A good question to ask is what kind of buffs would make me choose the Z-44 over Kitakaze,  Jutland,  Friesland,  Mogador  or Benham.

The reality is it  is a lost cause. The power creep at Tiers 9 and 10 has been moving at warp speed..

Z-44 was a dinosaur before it was released. It will never get enough buffs to be competitive.

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1 hour ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

I see people say that, but hte reality is thats a hallmark of a busted ship.

It is not enough for a DD to just spam torps.  Most everyone knows what a failure max range 20km Shima torp chuckers are.  DDs also need to be able to screen out other DDs and thats where gun DPM to concealment ratio becomes critical in this interaction.  Even one of my most hated torp boats in the game, Asashio can perform this function by positioning itself in front of support and use its superior concealment to zone enemy DDs out until they are whittled down enough they can take the fight.

Z-44 is squarely in the same trash pile as Yudiachi, Benham, and a few others.  They can work, but for general utility there is much better options.

Well, the 20 KM torps issue is their huge detection range (2.8 is it?  I forget), thats generally makes them worthless, people just have too much time to react to them.   

I thought Benham was considered broken and overpowered by most people?  I'm confused.   

I'm not really trying to defend Z-44, so much as just talk about what it CAN do, so far I've fairly enjoyed it, but spamming torps is a play style I don't mind playing, its often how I play my Halland, since the moment you fire guns in a Halland all 12 enemies are shooting at you for 20 seconds, Z-44 at least has smoke to get away when it needs to do so in a hurray.   

I do think it gave up way too much for its fast reload and 2 extra torps over the Z-46, its surprising they felt the need to hit it so hard for such small gains in other areas, but I guess they didn't wanna accidentally replace the Z-46 (like the Mass replaced the NC).    10 torps every minute shouldn't be entirely overlooked through, its one of the biggest torp threats on the board in any given game.   

I also quite like its AA system, which is probably a shocker, but not having to worry about turning it on/off is actually rather nice since it only outranges its air detection by 100 meters and its short range AA DPS isn't bad at all, if it engages it'll swat down a few planes (unless FDR of course), you just aren't providing any support to your allies.

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