The Vermont ain't all that bad...

[CrazyHorse_Denver]

I just got her and have only played one random and one coop games but I can tell she's not going to be a complete snowflake port queen. I'll be thinking of her and playing her as though it's a super Colorado. Unlike many here I've always enjoyed playing the Colorado so there's no problem here moving the play style up two tiers.

Not fast enough???... that's why a good map positioning in the beginning is key. You got guns that can reach out half way across the map... why does the ship itself need to be there within range of fire breathing cruisers. Speed is good for getting out of trouble but it's often the cause of getting into the trouble in the first place.

Reload too slow???... But who is going with that 40sec basic build anyway. I got it down to 35.2sec. With those 12 big guns I play it as if it's two 6 gun BBs sailing side by side... 6 big shells headed towards a target every 15 to 20 seconds and that target is going to feel some pain... especially when you adjust the aim between the first and second salvos.

Much of the noise I hear about this ship is because it doesn't fit with the play style of the player. I think the trick to this game in general is that it's easier for the player to adjust to the ship than the other way around.

Oh well just a few random thoughts about my newest ship... it'll probably never be one of my favorites but it won't be rusting in port either.

[dad003]

accuracy is good  but even with a fire prevention build is always on fire

[Hukom]

32 minutes ago, CrazyHorse_Denver said:

Much of the noise I hear about this ship is because it doesn't fit with the play style of the player. I think the trick to this game in general is that it's easier for the player to adjust to the ship than the other way around.

I agree. Just like with the Minnesota, I realized early on that this line required me to adapt to the ship and her character—the very definition of slow—rather than the other way around. 

I've played a few games with Vermont in Random and Co-op, and I find using APRM2 a comfortable experience compared to the reload mod. There is that certain sense of calm seeing twelve (12) 457mm shells tightly grouped, on their way to the enemy ship.

I initially used the reload mod, but I find the dispersion not that palatable, even in the mad rush of Co-op.

It won't rust in my port, and I will be playing her regularly because I need a change in pace from time to time.

[Estimated_Prophet]

1 hour ago, CrazyHorse_Denver said:

Much of the noise I hear about this ship is because it doesn't fit with the play style of the player. I think the trick to this game in general is that it's easier for the player to adjust to the ship than the other way around.

This.

So much this.

I can’t stand the new line; I think it’s boring as hell; but I love Colorado, (which is almost universally hated,) and most of what I see in the gripe posts equates to ‘Wah. I can’t machine gun targets to death,’ with a bit of ‘they’re helpless against destroyers,’ thrown in for good measure.

As you to an extent, and someone chastising me for my kvetching pointed out; the ship’s built around the guns; deal with it.

As to the other; if someone is playing a T8-10 battleship of any stripe, and hasn’t learned how to deal with destroyers, (map awareness being key,) they have other problems. 

[Crucis]

11 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

This.

So much this.

I can’t stand the new line; I think it’s boring as hell; but I love Colorado, (which is almost universally hated,) and most of what I see in the gripe posts equates to ‘Wah. I can’t machine gun targets to death,’ with a bit of ‘they’re helpless against destroyers,’ thrown in for good measure.

As you to an extent, and someone chastising me for my kvetching pointed out; the ship’s built around the guns; deal with it.

As to the other; if someone is playing a T8-10 battleship of any stripe, and hasn’t learned how to deal with destroyers, (map awareness being key,) they have other problems. 

Honestly, Prophet, with your "I like ships that other people hate" attitude, I'm thinking that you may be a natural born contrarian.  

Regardless, if you love the Colorado, it's hard for me to understand why you'd dislike the Minnesota or Vermont.  You say that you think that the new line is boring but love the Colorado, which really seems like a tier 7 version of these new BBs.

Anyways, you're right that these new BBs are built around the guns.  Then again, what BBs aren't built around their guns, for the most part?

 

[skillztowin]

was there any doubt? 

$10$

[MBRicochet]

I decided to get Vermont. She was better than I expected, but still would like to see her get a super heal. You eat enough pens to balance out that fact you can heal the fire damage. Everyone wins! More damage for the reds, and you can stay in the fight longer when your flank fails while you tank 4 enemies LOL. Might make her okish for more competitive modes. I feel like I'm doing ok with it. Enjoying it. Just don't rush in. Blapping a target on the otherside of the map is sorta amusing.

 

USS Sponge.

[Dr_Venture]

Correction: If you enjoy California, you'll enjoy Vermont.

[Estimated_Prophet]

4 hours ago, Crucis said:

Regardless, if you love the Colorado, it's hard for me to understand why you'd dislike the Minnesota or Vermont.  You say that you think that the new line is boring but love the Colorado, which really seems like a tier 7 version of these new BBs.

Colorado can at least pitch in faster, relatively speaking.

I had ONE good game of the ten I played so far in Kansas. (5 PvP, 5 PvE.)

A Co-op game, (125k-ish damage? Or thereabouts,) and only because most of the rest of the team obligingly died, leaving me the only one left to shoot at the bots, when I finally got there.

The rest I basically never did much because everything died before I got there; (PvE,) or I spent most of the game being burned to death, (PvP, 40% wr.)

Such fun. 

Quote

Anyways, you're right that these new BBs are built around the guns.  Then again, what BBs aren't built around their guns, for the most part?

Some might argue their speed and RoF.

Not particularly me.

[Taichunger]

9 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Colorado can at least pitch in faster, relatively speaking.

I had ONE good game of the ten I played so far in Kansas. (5 PvP, 5 PvE.)

A Co-op game, (125k-ish damage? Or thereabouts,) and only because most of the rest of the team obligingly died, leaving me the only one left to shoot at the bots, when I finally got there.

 

I played one disastrous game in Randoms with Kansas, then swore that I would never take either Kan or Minn to Randoms. 

In Coop my highest score was 193K. I found it to be a lot of fun. It's numerous flaws balanced out the inherent advantages of humans over bots. 

Minn, not so much. It seems there is no improvement in sigma, dispersion, or shell shatters, ricochets, and overpens. It's godawful. I managed over 200K a couple of times, with a high of 226K, but there is no way I'd take that POS to randoms. Every time I see one on my team I just wince...

[Moggytwo]

Kansas is pretty poor, Minnesota is balanced but bland.  Vermont is also bland, but is clearly a bit OP.  She'll likely be nerfed in 3-6 months.

If you can live with the slow reload and the slow speed, then you're likely going to like everything else about the ship, with the primary thing you'll like being - she absolutely wrecks things.

I personally won't get her, she's the exact opposite of what I like in a BB, but I can't deny she's clearly a bit too strong overall.

[Princess_Daystar]

7 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

This.

So much this.

I can’t stand the new line; I think it’s boring as hell; but I love Colorado, (which is almost universally hated,) and most of what I see in the gripe posts equates to ‘Wah. I can’t machine gun targets to death,’ with a bit of ‘they’re helpless against destroyers,’ thrown in for good measure.

As you to an extent, and someone chastising me for my kvetching pointed out; the ship’s built around the guns; deal with it.

As to the other; if someone is playing a T8-10 battleship of any stripe, and hasn’t learned how to deal with destroyers, (map awareness being key,) they have other problems. 

Having played the Minnie after the Iowa, it needs help. Slow speed and Long reload? Fine i dont mind that actually, i like the Queen Elizabeth and to a lesser extent the Bayern, But it needs to be able to land the majority of its shells on target to make up for that, further those shells need to penetrate. i cant count the number of salvos ive fired at 14km+ where 8 or more rounds hit and 0 penetrated.I wish i could say that was abnormal but its not. Give it the Iowas shells and id take back my complaints, but using a tier 6 shell(uses the Colorado's A Hull round), at tier 9? OOOOF.

 

If the goal of these ships was long range fire support/sniping..they suck at it compared to other ships.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

All these post Georgia / Ohio USN Battleships that have sucked so much are sacrifices to the altar of Vermont.

They are the "Vermont Tax."

 

Nowhere else in the game will you ever see a string of a single nation's ship releases thrown under the bus for the sake of one ship.

[echelon5]

Got my Minnesota last night (had ground out enough XP on the Kansas to get it right away). So far, for the five or six games I played in it last night, I am actually enjoying it (I did not care for the kansas, and short of events I probably won't be playing it much, if at all). Nothing to definitively point at, but the gunnery on the Minnesota just "feels" much more comfortable. I built it with the same equipment as my Kansas but with the addition of the accuracy module. Maybe that's all it took, but I feel like I hit more, and the hits are more likely to do damage. We'll see how it shapes up given more time, but so far I'm encouraged.

And for the record, Colorado was my most played ship for a long time, and I do enjoy the California.

[Yandere_Roon]

38 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

All these post Georgia / Ohio USN Battleships that have sucked so much are sacrifices to the altar of Vermont.

They are the "Vermont Tax."

Nowhere else in the game will you ever see a string of a single nation's ship releases thrown under the bus for the sake of one ship.

Pretty much this BUT this isn't the ONLY line with a 'tax' on it. The RN BBs have terrible tier 8 and 9s as well (especially after the citadel was raised) in order to pay the 'Conqueror tax'.

As for the Vemont itself...yeah...if you enjoy US standards, you'll enjoy the Vermont especially because unlike her tier 8 and 9 compatriots she has REALLY good AP pen even at long range (managed to citadel a yammi at 22km during a match) and it seems like she's got the heavy shells of the Ohio on her.

Personally if I was to buff this ship I'd do the following:

1) Give back the US BB heal.

2) Increase the speed to 25 knots.

3) Shave 2 seconds off of the reload time.

4) Reintroduce the USN standard speed retention when turning to ALL USN standards, not just this line.

Is the Vermont a meta changing ship? No. Is the Vermont a fun ship for the right person? Definitely.

As for buffs to the tier 8 and 9?

1) Increase accuracy to 1.8 for the Kansas.

2) Give the Kansas the NorCal shells.

3) Give Minnesota the Iowa super heavy 406mm shells.

4) buff their speed to 25 knots.

5) Give them the US BB Heal.

[Ensign_Cthulhu]

8 hours ago, Crucis said:

Honestly, Prophet, with your "I like ships that other people hate" attitude, I'm thinking that you may be a natural born contrarian. 

IIRC this is the same person who loved the Emerald but despised everything that followed.

Yes, he's a contrarian.

Does it matter? No. Nothing is healthier for the game than seeing someone enjoying and doing well in a ship that almost everyone else says the worst things about. 

For the record, the Kansas is growing on me. Good thing too, because with the Minnesota constituting a shortcut through the current three-week directive string, the desire to get to her intensifies - and I'm not sure I'm going to do that in co-op in any great hurry.

[Tzarevitch]

1 hour ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

IIRC this is the same person who loved the Emerald but despised everything that followed.

Yes, he's a contrarian.

Does it matter? No. Nothing is healthier for the game than seeing someone enjoying and doing well in a ship that almost everyone else says the worst things about. 

For the record, the Kansas is growing on me. Good thing too, because with the Minnesota constituting a shortcut through the current three-week directive string, the desire to get to her intensifies - and I'm not sure I'm going to do that in co-op in any great hurry.

I haven't found Kansas to be too bad either. I think the pile-on of how bad she is is greatly overblown. It isn't my playstyle so it isn't fun to me, but  it is effective. 12x16" guns solves a lot of problems you didn't know you had. lol. And the accuracy isn't that bad in practice. The penetration isn't the best but with 12 of them you can put a decent number into the superstructure with every shot for very consistent damage from pens and overpens even if some bounce off of a turret or bow and even if the enemy BB angles. Speed is dreadful of course but there isn't really anything you can do about that. 

[Jitta77]

I'm assuming the Vermont is going to be similar to the Kansas and Minnesota in terms of staying about 20kms from targets and throwing lead.  Most HE spammers don't exceed 19.1km range. :)

I've found that the AA abilities of the T8 and T9 don't seem OP by any stretch. A T8 CV (IJN) has no issue getting 2 drops off through the AA and DFAA. (Though my effective AA was down to 72%).

What I find most exhausting about the ships is shooting at broadside targets at 20km and thinking "YES! I got it on target" but I do 3k damage with 2 overpens and 3 bounces.  I had a game in the Minnesota where I got off 5 volleys on a broadside Iowa and I did a total of 12k damage.  Sure I need another 90 games to bring in my first shot accuracy but I expected in a perfect scenario like a BB driving broadside I would destroy her in 2-3 volleys.

[Yandere_Roon]

2 minutes ago, Jitta77 said:

I'm assuming the Vermont is going to be similar to the Kansas and Minnesota in terms of staying about 20kms from targets and throwing lead.  Most HE spammers don't exceed 19.1km range. :)

I've found that the AA abilities of the T8 and T9 don't seem OP by any stretch. A T8 CV (IJN) has no issue getting 2 drops off through the AA and DFAA. (Though my effective AA was down to 72%).

What I find most exhausting about the ships is shooting at broadside targets at 20km and thinking "YES! I got it on target" but I do 3k damage with 2 overpens and 3 bounces.  I had a game in the Minnesota where I got off 5 volleys on a broadside Iowa and I did a total of 12k damage.  Sure I need another 90 games to bring in my first shot accuracy but I expected in a perfect scenario like a BB driving broadside I would destroy her in 2-3 volleys.

Unlike the Kansas and the Minne she has MUCH heavier shells (feels she gets the Ohio 457mm super heavy shells) and surprisingly good long range AP pen, I've dropped like 20k non-citadel salvos on enemy at 20km. I've also managed to citadel a Yammie and a Conqueror at around 18-20km range.

[Edgecase]

It's weird to say that positioning is the solution for a ship that's so slow, since a bad spawn more or less ensures you won't get the position you want. Even more so if your teammate decides he wants that same position and sails to it instead of going somewhere useful to create a crossfire with you -- you can't exactly change your mind and go take the other position instead.

Also, Minnesota and Vermont are 100% dispersion mod required IMO. Waiting 40 seconds for a potentially dangerous salvo is vastly superior to shooting a donut ring around your target every 35.

[MannyD_of_The_Sea]

1 hour ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

For the record, the Kansas is growing on me. Good thing too, because with the Minnesota constituting a shortcut through the current three-week directive string, the desire to get to her intensifies - and I'm not sure I'm going to do that in co-op in any great hurry.

I ended up not hating the Kansas so much. I still consider it a very unimpactful ship as far as influencing a battle’s outcome goes, but, it takes nice chunky bites out of reds, which is satisfying. I did have a 62.5% winrate (10 for 16) in it, until last night, when I realized that my 175k XP wasn’t enough to unlock the Minnesota. So, 58.8% in the end.

Played one random in Minnesota after several Co-op sea trials. (Upgraded hull, stock guns, -11% dispersion mod, 14-point captain with FP)

Minnesota can make an impact. Three kills, 104k damage. Actually made a DD within secondary range go running for mama. Killed an Iowa that thought he could island ambush my slow, fat a$s. B!tch-slapped some T-7 cruiser dead and made it pick up its teeth after itself. Double-citadeled the red CV with a peekaboo over-the-island shot when I found his hidey-hole.  Sent him running for the tall grass. Weathered his wrath, and would have solo capped, except we won before capping.

Essentially, two-thirds of the way through the battle, I became the ship the reds HAD to deal with, and they couldn’t.

Never had that moment in Kansas. Was always “just along for the ride.”

The differences were probably  the T9 dispersion module, and the FP captain skill. (My captain graduated from Kansas with only 13 points, gave him #14 as a graduation gift.)

[Battleship_PrinceOfWales]

The Vermont is an amazing ship, contrary to its predecessors in the line. It is worth every drop of fxp you put into it.

[Skyfaller]

Vermont is one of those few instances WG gets it almost right when it comes to balance.

Is it slow? Yes. But it balances out its massive damage and godly non-soviet easymode accuracy.

Does it have a rather poor heal? Yes. Then again, the damage and accuracy have to be balanced out. Slow speed and poor heal are 2 cons that balance 2 of its 3 pros: damage and accuracy.

40 second reload? Yes...but it does not matter at all. You have massive range and your shells are more accurate the farther out they are last 'pro' .. long range accuracy.

 

WG only needs to make two changes to this ship line to make them balanced but not OP:

1- The absurd vulnerability it has to HE. Not fire, HE.

 

When a light cruiser literally melts half your HP off when you are bow-on in less than 40 seconds something is seriously messed up. The shell should not be penetrating your deck topside armor nor your turret armor.

This all stems from the massive superstructure it has and the fact WG assigned more than half the hitpoints of the ship to said superstructure. Your superstructure becomes damage saturated only when you down to 20% health... which is insanely moronic.

In comparison, a Kremlin under controlled testing in practice server, will only go down to 60% hp before superstructure becomes damage saturated.

 

FIX: Reduce HP % assigned to superstructure. It should only munch off 40% total HP pool. 

 

2- Extreme helplessness vs close range ships. Any ship.

Due to low speed and long reload times this BB line has a huge problem at close range. I'm not saying it should not, but there is a difference between being completely helpless and being at a disadvantage.

 

To solve this, I think WG could take this chance to give USN something it lacks: Make this BB line be the one with long range secondaries.

Now, think about it.. this BB line has FEW SECONDARY GUNS compared to German and French BBs. Vermont's secondaries are no different in number than Yoshino's in quantity.

 

So.. make this BB line have a base range of secondaries of 8km's. This would allow it to have longer range secondaries than the avg BB line but its few secondaries in number.

 

This balances out the helplessness at close range and it doesn't OP the ship due to the small amount of secondaries it has.

[Ensign_Cthulhu]

25 minutes ago, Skyfaller said:

To solve this, I think WG could take this chance to give USN something it lacks: Make this BB line be the one with long range secondaries.

And so, after about two thirds of your post is read, your real agenda is revealed.

WG already decided on the flavour of this line, and it isn't the one you and your fellow travellers wanted. 

[Naviss]

I've been enjoying the new line so far, I can go get some house chores done while sailing to a objective. Play a game on my phone while I reload. And go back to port quickly to play a better ship from all the fires and the normal 26k hits I eat trying to fire more then 2 turrets, but unable to turn back before ships hit me.

I did however have to skip Kansas though. Balti completely broadside to me a at range of 7KM not moving, And two full broadsides into the waterline hull and only doing 13k total damage, I couldn't bare to finish that out. lol Minni seems like it can hit something though. Grind wont be bad there, Just boring, But need to get use to that. Got a lot of rounds to go!