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iDuckman

Skill rework - the unread FAQ

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I see many posters opining that WG didn't consider their X objection.  Yet most of the objections that I've seen were directly addressed in the hidden FAQ at the bottom of the blog.  Here it is.

The one looming unanswered question I have is, How much will the 20 and 21st point cost?

 
Question Answer
Will my 19 skill point commander become a 21 skill point commander with the release of the system?  No, after the update the number of skill points of your 19-skill point commanders won't be changed.
Battlecruisers that used many BB skills can no longer use them. How will this be adressed? Yes, these ships will no longer be able to use some of the BB skills, mainly survivability ones. However, instead there will be some new skills that enhance their attack performance. For example:
  • Armor-Piercing Cruiser (The maximum damage of AP shells with a caliber of 190mm and higher +7%)
  • Armament Reload Expert (When an enemy is detected within the base detectability range of your ship: Main battery reload time -8%; Secondary battery reload time -10%,)
  • Brawler (Increases the ship’s parameters if there are more visible enemy ships than allied ships within your ship's base main caliber firing range: Maximum dispersion of main battery shells -10%, ship's maximum speed +8%)
  • Demoman (Maximum damage of main battery HE and SAP shells +10%; Detectability range of a ship with main battery guns with a caliber higher than 149 mm +15%.)
Why did you remove BFT and AFT from the cruiser skill tree? This will greatly affect cruisers with small calibers. These skills were useful for a small number of cruisers, and in the new system we want almost all skills to be useful for ships within the class. Instead of BFT and AFT we added some other ones, like Demoman (Maximum damage of main battery HE and SAP shells +10%, Detectability range of a ship with main battery guns with a caliber higher than 149 mm +15%), which will be useful for light cruisers. This skill, and some other ones are particularly useful for cruisers with small caliber guns.
Nevertheless, we'll keep an eye on these ships after the skill system update and make changes if deem necessary.
Why did you nerf the secondaries skill accuracy bonus? Now the skill doesn't depend on the ship's tier and doesn't reduce the number of targets to a single one. We consider it to be even more useful for secondary-spec battleships, in spite of the skill's decreased accuracy bonus.
In addition secondary builds have become more diverse. The skill that increases the firing range of secondary batteries (Secondary Armament Balistician) has become one skill point cheaper. We are also planning to increase the base secondary battery firing range for some battleships in the future.
 What about the performance gap between players with and without unique commanders?  Unique commanders won't become any stronger after the update of the skill system, because we didn't change their talents. As for the enhanced skills, they were only adjusted to the new skill system. We don't believe that they will become more effective and give a bigger edge to their owners than before.
Why did you leave the Marksman skill on battleships? You encourage passive gameplay! Battleships differ in terms of gameplay - some, like Yamato, are played at distance, dealing damage and providing their team with an HP advantage by the end of the battle. Others, like Kurfurst, are pushing forward to provide a tactical advantage for the team and make enemies retreat. We want our new skill system to be able to emphasize and enhance all these playstyles. Besides, the skill will not change anything much, because if a player likes to stand and fire from long range, he will do it with or without this skill and players who like their battleships to be more of a brawling type will not select it, taking skills that improve close-range performance instead.
Will the skills that enhance standard consumables also affect consumables with special parameters?  Yes. Skills which enhance, for example, standard "Repair Party" or "Smoke Generator", will also affect the "Specialized Repair Teams", "Crawling/Exhaust/Short-Burst Smoike Generator" and other consumables with special parameters.
Do I need to respec all my commanders after release of this feature No, your commander skills will be automatically redistributed to be as close to your previous build as possible. If you are not satisfied with your automatically picked skills, you will be able to redistribute the skills for free for the entire update 0.10.0
If I transfer the commander from a tech-tree battleship to a tech-tree destroyer, will I have to undergo retraining? Yes, the commander will have to undergo retraining in order to be transfered to a different tech-tree ship.
Will I be able to choose skills on all 4 pages fоr one commander, and then transfer him to ships of different types without resetting the skills? Yes, but you may be required to retrain the commander. However, if you transfer the commander to premium ships, no retraining is required
As you are reworking the skill-system now, how about adding templates and the ability to save different skill sets (e.g. one for random battles, one for competitive play)?  We are not planning to implement this at the moment.
Edited by iDuckman
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4 minutes ago, theLaalaa said:

Perhaps 375000 and 450000, respectively?

If they follow the same math used with the existing progression.

17 minutes ago, iDuckman said:

I see many posters opining that WG didn't consider their X objection.  Yet most of the objections that I've seen were directly addressed in the hidden FAQ at the bottom of the blog.  Here it is.

The one looming unanswered question I have is, How much will the 20 and 21st point cost?

 
Question Answer
Will my 19 skill point commander become a 21 skill point commander with the release of the system?  No, after the update the number of skill points of your 19-skill point commanders won't be changed.
Battlecruisers that used many BB skills can no longer use them. How will this be adressed? Yes, these ships will no longer be able to use some of the BB skills, mainly survivability ones. However, instead there will be some new skills that enhance their attack performance. For example:
  • Armor-Piercing Cruiser (The maximum damage of AP shells with a caliber of 190mm and higher +7%)
  • Armament Reload Expert (When an enemy is detected within the base detectability range of your ship: Main battery reload time -8%; Secondary battery reload time -10%,)
  • Brawler (Increases the ship’s parameters if there are more visible enemy ships than allied ships within your ship's base main caliber firing range: Maximum dispersion of main battery shells -10%, ship's maximum speed +8%)
  • Demoman (Maximum damage of main battery HE and SAP shells +10%; Detectability range of a ship with main battery guns with a caliber higher than 149 mm +15%.)
Why did you remove BFT and AFT from the cruiser skill tree? This will greatly affect cruisers with small calibers. These skills were useful for a small number of cruisers, and in the new system we want almost all skills to be useful for ships within the class. Instead of BFT and AFT we added some other ones, like Demoman (Maximum damage of main battery HE and SAP shells +10%, Detectability range of a ship with main battery guns with a caliber higher than 149 mm +15%), which will be useful for light cruisers. This skill, and some other ones are particularly useful for cruisers with small caliber guns.
Nevertheless, we'll keep an eye on these ships after the skill system update and make changes if deem necessary.
Why did you nerf the secondaries skill accuracy bonus? Now the skill doesn't depend on the ship's tier and doesn't reduce the number of targets to a single one. We consider it to be even more useful for secondary-spec battleships, in spite of the skill's decreased accuracy bonus.
In addition secondary builds have become more diverse. The skill that increases the firing range of secondary batteries (Secondary Armament Balistician) has become one skill point cheaper. We are also planning to increase the base secondary battery firing range for some battleships in the future.
 What about the performance gap between players with and without unique commanders?  Unique commanders won't become any stronger after the update of the skill system, because we didn't change their talents. As for the enhanced skills, they were only adjusted to the new skill system. We don't believe that they will become more effective and give a bigger edge to their owners than before.
Why did you leave the Marksman skill on battleships? You encourage passive gameplay! Battleships differ in terms of gameplay - some, like Yamato, are played at distance, dealing damage and providing their team with an HP advantage by the end of the battle. Others, like Kurfurst, are pushing forward to provide a tactical advantage for the team and make enemies retreat. We want our new skill system to be able to emphasize and enhance all these playstyles. Besides, the skill will not change anything much, because if a player likes to stand and fire from long range, he will do it with or without this skill and players who like their battleships to be more of a brawling type will not select it, taking skills that improve close-range performance instead.
Will the skills that enhance standard consumables also affect consumables with special parameters?  Yes. Skills which enhance, for example, standard "Repair Party" or "Smoke Generator", will also affect the "Specialized Repair Teams", "Crawling/Exhaust/Short-Burst Smoike Generator" and other consumables with special parameters.
Do I need to respec all my commanders after release of this feature No, your commander skills will be automatically redistributed to be as close to your previous build as possible. If you are not satisfied with your automatically picked skills, you will be able to redistribute the skills for free for the entire update 0.10.0
If I transfer the commander from a tech-tree battleship to a tech-tree destroyer, will I have to undergo retraining? Yes, the commander will have to undergo retraining in order to be transfered to a different tech-tree ship.
Will I be able to choose skills on all 4 pages fоr one commander, and then transfer him to ships of different types without resetting the skills? Yes, but you may be required to retrain the commander. However, if you transfer the commander to premium ships, no retraining is required
As you are reworking the skill-system now, how about adding templates and the ability to save different skill sets (e.g. one for random battles, one for competitive play)?  We are not planning to implement this at the moment.

Nor did they further confirm the formula we will be using to "repurpose" existing captains with credits or doubloons. 

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Yup, no one read it. And it's actually the most informative part, because reading between the lines you can see WG's thinking. Battlecruisers, WG fully realizes they're nerfing survivability. But they're compensating by giving them more offensive power. Secondaries, accuracy goes down but more range and more targets. Again, they're not nerfing secondaries, they're changing the way they work. Light cruisers they're aware of. I'm less sure of their reasoning here though, more damage is great, but you need to be able to hit the target first, and then you need to pen them. Atlanta doesn't need more HE DPM, she needs the range to not get deleted when she fires. When your range is secondary range for a lot of BBs at T9 there's a problem.

So people need to stop acting like WG is jus slapping changes in for the heck of it, they are aware of what they are doing. This isn't to say everything is rosy, I think there are some significant problems with the rework, including locking skills to single ship types (what are they going to do for hybrids?). But there's a whole lot of people complaining because they just don't like change.

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I did read their FAQ, and I think they should admit they are deliberately nerfing supercruisers. Which is actually kinda OK, supercruisers grossly overperform compared to regular cruisers. But their explanation for the nerf to light cruisers with destroyer-caliber guns doesn't hold water. It's true that AFT on cruisers was a niche choice because it primarily benefited Atlanta, Flint, Smolensk, and Colbert and was a distant second choice for very uncommon AA builds. However, WG says that this removal is compensated for because Demoman (all the new skill names are terrible) gives a 10% HE/SAP damage increase and these cruisers will want that skill. 

But:

1. If the goal was to make all skills more broadly applicable, it fails because Demoman will come with a heavy 15% stealth nerf to cruisers with guns bigger than 149mm, which means that once again the only ships that will take this skill are the same cruisers that took AFT. So they replaced one niche skill with another.

and

2. AFT was much more important to the <130mm-armed cruisers because the range gave both an effective damage increase as well as an effective survivability buff. Now a couple of these cruisers are not going to be able to fire their main battery at enemy battleships without also being in secondary range, and it's likely to get worse as the rework of the secondary skills is coming with a likely global increase to battleship secondary range. 

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The skill change will nerf the BBs, make glass cannons out of CA's, and make DD's deadlier. Exception to what I said are the Slava, Kremlin, Smolensk, etc. They will be stronger than before.

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What I got from the FAQ when I first read it is basically "we know your concerns, but we are really in the right so they don't matter".

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7 minutes ago, Tpaktop2_1 said:

The skill change will nerf the BBs, make glass cannons out of CA's, and make DD's deadlier. Exception to what I said are the Slava, Kremlin, Smolensk, etc. They will be stronger than before.

Russian bias at work..LOL!

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The biggest issue I see it is they are taking away things like cruiser survival builds such as I use on my Hindenburg which when combined with the UU makes her pretty much fire and flood proof with burn & flood times that echo the CV times.

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24 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

What I got from the FAQ when I first read it is basically "we know your concerns, but we are really in the right so they don't matter".

In other words, the same response they have given to any question, doubt or criticism since day one.

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As far as how much the 20th and 21st point will cost, we might get a hint from the respec costs they stated for a 21 point captain -

They stated the costs will not change for a 19 point captain - 475 dubs, or 190K elite captain xp.

For a 21 point captain, the respec cost stated was 525 dubs, or 500K elite captain xp.

You might be able to extrapolate from that how much that 20th and 21st point will cost in xp.

Oh, and that respec cost will be PER SHIP TYPE - IOW, to completely respec a captain for all four ship types, will run you 2100 dub, or 2 million elite captain xp.

And then figure they're going to add in a section for submarines later on as well.

 

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Glad you folks are posting all this info. I have not followed this close enough it seems. Was waiting for Flint, but now will pass, and my Atlanta is being nerfed again. Thank you so much WG.

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I also read the FAQ and am still not satisfied with the answers provided. Cruisers like the Atlanta, Flint, and Colbert are losing range to a point where they are basically useless. WG's answer is that they gave us more damage but if I can't get in range to hit anything what does it matter? This also affects ships like the Agir and Siegfried that could use BFT and AFT for secondaries. Cruisers like the Kronstadt, Alaska, Petro etc with the improved AP should be fine of course but AA is again an issue.

Low tier battleships will do better with the secondary rework (looking at you Mikasa and maybe the OK) as will all U.S. Battleships, but the Germans look to be taking a hit due to their accuracy issues. 

Also, the fact that they removed the ability to accelerate training of new captains using credits, but only allow a captain to be assigned to one tech tree ship while at the same still maintaining the ability to be used on all premium ships, is also a "possible" money grab.  Add to this that WG kept the ability to accelerate training for new captains using doubloons ,and now it's a "definite" and not a "possible", at least for me. 

I agree that WG knows what they're doing, and don't care. I believe they're trying to make this a fast paced shoot em up style game and if they lose some of the older players along the way so be it. Hopefully I'm way off base but I'm not liking the direction the game is taking. 

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1 hour ago, theLaalaa said:

Perhaps 375000 and 450000, respectively?

I could work with that.

But I can work with a lot of things I don't like.

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"These skills were useful for a small number of cruisers, and in the new system we want almost all skills to be useful for ships within the class. Instead of BFT and AFT we added some other ones, like Demoman (Maximum damage of main battery HE and SAP shells +10%, Detectability range of a ship with main battery guns with a caliber higher than 149 mm +15%), which will be useful for light cruisers. This skill, and some other ones are particularly useful for cruisers with small caliber guns."

So, if I read this correctly, damage will increase, but gun range will decrease and detectability will increase. How does this benefit ships such as Atlanta and Flint? This sounds more like a nerf with a little bit of extra damage thrown in as a consolation prize.

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Every player has a chance to vote on these upcoming changes over the next 4 weeks. It will be pretty binary; yes or no.

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1 hour ago, AJTP89 said:

Yup, no one read it. And it's actually the most informative part, because reading between the lines you can see WG's thinking. Battlecruisers, WG fully realizes they're nerfing survivability. But they're compensating by giving them more offensive power. Secondaries, accuracy goes down but more range and more targets. Again, they're not nerfing secondaries, they're changing the way they work. Light cruisers they're aware of. I'm less sure of their reasoning here though, more damage is great, but you need to be able to hit the target first, and then you need to pen them. Atlanta doesn't need more HE DPM, she needs the range to not get deleted when she fires. When your range is secondary range for a lot of BBs at T9 there's a problem.

So people need to stop acting like WG is jus slapping changes in for the heck of it, they are aware of what they are doing. This isn't to say everything is rosy, I think there are some significant problems with the rework, including locking skills to single ship types (what are they going to do for hybrids?). But there's a whole lot of people complaining because they just don't like change.

Yes, you are correct.  The are de evolving the battlespace mechanics to be less accurate and less effective..... which, equates to less player value per game......which means, more games to make the same amount that is impossible to accomplish if you've been in the game several years.....  I have twenty-three 19 point CPT's.....  no way to recover from that......none.  So, I have to make a choice: stay or leave.

There have been several games I have played that went down this exact path.  The most recent was MWO.  Same verbiage "the customers asked for this because they wanted more customization and choices" and, in reality, in that game, not a single player on their forum asked for those changes.  The Skill Tree Change in MWO is the same thing as the CPT Respec in this game.  Get less of everything the change promised; spend more time to earn less; and, accuracy degrades to the point that only melee matches occur.....  We were joking about welding spears onto the mechs because the battlespace mechanics degraded so bad.   Deja Vu.   And, MWO is a ghost town.  No conventions anymore.  No eSports anymore........  We won't see that level of effects here because of the other game titles helping to offset people leaving.........and, they are leaving...!  How many?????  Let's see what happens after the Christmas crates prove to be nothing anywhere near what they were years ago....  Whales are talking about leaving; some have already.....and, retired their accounts and play other games !!!  I know a few so...........

They are "devaluing and de-evolving the content" into a simpler arcade format to save/make money and that, is a step backwards; and, a Slap to the customer base whom has supported this game for years.....  Just my opinion.

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1 hour ago, theLaalaa said:

Perhaps 375000 and 450000, respectively?

My humble prediction is:

345,000

394,000

respectively....

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4 minutes ago, DJC_499 said:

My humble prediction is:

345,000

394,000

respectively....

I hope for your humble prediction to be spot-on.

Also, I thought I was being conservative! I originally typed in 500,000 for 21 but thought that a bit high.

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10 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

There have been several games I have played that went down this exact path.  The most recent was MWO.  Same verbiage "the customers asked for this because they wanted more customization and choices" and, in reality, in that game, not a single player on their forum asked for those changes.  The Skill Tree Change in MWO is the same thing as the CPT Respec in this game.  Get less of everything the change promised; spend more time to earn less; and, accuracy degrades to the point that only melee matches occur.....  We were joking about welding spears onto the mechs because the battlespace mechanics degraded so bad.   Deja Vu.   And, MWO is a ghost town.  No conventions anymore.  No eSports anymore........  We won't see that level of effects here because of the other game titles helping to offset people leaving.........and, they are leaving...!  How many?????  Let's see what happens after the Christmas crates prove to be nothing anywhere near what they were years ago....  Whales are talking about leaving; some have already.....and, retired their accounts and play other games !!!  I know a few so...........

MWO has/had serious intellectual property issues and rarely released patches for that game. WoWs doesn't seem to have those issues. No IP issues to worry about with historical/government-financed stuff and we get a patch about once a month. At its peak MWO never got patches like that. 

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10 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

Yes, you are correct.  The are de evolving the battlespace mechanics to be less accurate and less effective..... which, equates to less player value per game......which means, more games to make the same amount that is impossible to accomplish if you've been in the game several years.....  I have twenty-three 19 point CPT's.....  no way to recover from that......none.  So, I have to make a choice: stay or leave.

There have been several games I have played that went down this exact path.  The most recent was MWO.  Same verbiage "the customers asked for this because they wanted more customization and choices" and, in reality, in that game, not a single player on their forum asked for those changes.  The Skill Tree Change in MWO is the same thing as the CPT Respec in this game.  Get less of everything the change promised; spend more time to earn less; and, accuracy degrades to the point that only melee matches occur.....  We were joking about welding spears onto the mechs because the battlespace mechanics degraded so bad.   Deja Vu.   And, MWO is a ghost town.  No conventions anymore.  No eSports anymore........  We won't see that level of effects here because of the other game titles helping to offset people leaving.........and, they are leaving...!  How many?????  Let's see what happens after the Christmas crates prove to be nothing anywhere near what they were years ago....  Whales are talking about leaving; some have already.....and, retired their accounts and play other games !!!  I know a few so...........

They are "devaluing and de-evolving the content" into a simpler arcade format to save/make money and that, is a step backwards; and, a Slap to the customer base whom has supported this game for years.....  Just my opinion.

can i ask you something? why is the 21 points such a big problem? like i hear this from many people in this forum, that their "never going to recover from that". recover from what? your going to earn less Elite commander xp. (but your going to start earning it with every captain) and thats about it.

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47 minutes ago, Retnav54 said:


Oh, and that respec cost will be PER SHIP TYPE - IOW, to completely respec a captain for all four ship types, will run you 2100 dub, or 2 million elite captain xp.

And then figure they're going to add in a section for submarines later on as well.

 

I don't believe the best use of a captain is to spec him for four tech tree ship types which will incur those costs you mention if you moved him to each of those ships. From the FAQ:

Will I be able to choose skills on all 4 pages fоr one commander, and then transfer him to ships of different types without resetting the skills? Yes, but you may be required to retrain the commander. However, if you transfer the commander to premium ships, no retraining is required

The goal should be to train him for one tech tree type and use the other three type builds in Premium ships. WG sees this as an opportunity (?) for players to purchase premium ships to fully utilize the skills of their captains - especially legendary ones.

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2 hours ago, iDuckman said:

These skills were useful for a small number of cruisers, and in the new system we want almost all skills to be useful for ships within the class

 

That one's basically a straight-up lie.

 

BFT and AFT were useful to all cruisers if for no other reason than they buffed their AA.

 

It was more important to some cruisers than others but it was beneficial to every cruiser.

 

So they removed a skill that was useful to all ships in the class because they wanted to make all skills useful to ships in the class. 

 

Absolutely, totally, 100% legit.

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3 minutes ago, TobTorp said:

can i ask you something? why is the 21 points such a big problem? like i hear this from many people in this forum, that their "never going to recover from that". recover from what? your going to earn less Elite commander xp. (but your going to start earning it with every captain) and thats about it.

I don't believe WG stated it but will 21 point captains' earned ECXP be 100% earnings as is done with 19 pointers or the 5% earned by those captains not maxed out? They left it kind of unanswered but easy to assume 21 point captains accrue ECXP at 100%.

  • Commanders with less than the maximum number of skill points (<21) will earn additional Elite Commander XP equivalent to 5% of the received commander XP.

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