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warheart1992

A quick and dirty tl;dr of the good, the bad and very ugly of what you get with the skill rework.

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Good:

  1. Each commander gets separate skills for section for each ship type. This should allow some variety
  2. The above applies to Unique Commanders as well, making it easier to use them. Again, unique commanders with previously incompatible bonuses can put them to good use in different classes.
  3. Increased amount of skill points. Could give more room to expand on skills.
  4. Non 21 point Commanders still earn ECXP. Could somewhat offset the larger amount of CXP you have to earn.
  5. You can dismiss Commanders to get back some ECXP. See above.
  6. Reduced amount of CXP to retrain Commanders. Reductions in costs are always welcome.... Provided there's no caveat.
  7. A bit more specialized selection of skills instead of some more prevalent cookie cutter builds that exist now. It's pretty true and not all too bad to shake things up a bit

Sounds pretty good so far now right? Let's get onto the bad and very ugly now.

Bad:

  1. As commander retraining now costs half the amount of XP, the ability to accelerate retraining time using credits was removed. You just get the 50% option for 200k credits automatically basically, but now you deal with 21 points, not 19.
  2. Your 19 point Commander is elite no more, meaning there is a huge amount of CXP you have to grind yet again to max him out.
  3. Tech tree ship Commanders have to still be retrained. You practically get full benefit out of the separate skills for each ship type only through premium ships.
  4. Certain super cruisers that favoured unique builds (like secondary Siegfried) are unable to benefit. A skill revamp that would allow ships to follow deeper specializations doesn't allow unique builds
  5. Certain CLs with DD caliber main battery can no longer benefit from skills such as AFT and BFT. Aside from Smolensk most of these aren't broken, meaning these changes further nerf them.

Very ugly:

  1. As far as I know there hasn't been any real testing on the proposed changes, yet they are planned to be the first patch of 2021.
  2. To expand there are other fronts which are still open such as CV balance and the potential of subs. Keep in mind that if and when subs will make it into the game there will be another skill revamp. WG is unable to address current issues quickly and efficiently, yet are supposed to be able to tackle multiple problems in two months?
  3. A single month of free respecs, while seemingly enough, isn't really much. With an already fragile balance that could easily change in the near future there should be more time allowed for respecs, especially considering the massive skill changes.
  4. A skill rework done with the purpose of adressing that:
    Quote

    Many skills in the game are not suitable for certain classes and individual ships, which greatly limits the variability of builds. In such conditions, there were not as many effective ways to distribute skills as we wanted. These change will help players not only to allocate skills to match their playstyle, but also to try new tactics.

    Yet actively bars classes from picking skills other than the ones on their class section. I hope I'm not the only one who sees the irony in this.

  5. Players with multiple 19 point Commanders that weren't hard to get once you got 3-4 rolling will have to do insane grinds to be able to max skills again, or blow through millions of ECXP.

Potential solution and verdict:

 

Want to get real feedback? For two weeks update the whole game or a specific server to use the skill revamp, then obtain actual feedback by actual surveys from all the players. Use premium time/doubloons, I don't know as a reward, but also get large scale responses, not something like:

Quote

We would like to thank you for your feedback that allowed us to improve the new commander skill system! Today would like to update you on the changes we've made since the initial announcement.

Which was probably less than 5% of the playerbase on forums and something similar on reddit.

As it is, my verdict is:

200.gif

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Edited by warheart1992
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13 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

Very ugly:

  1. PRIORITY TARGET GOES UP TO 2 POINTS!
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Remind me again, what was broken with the current captain skill setup.

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1 minute ago, gillhunter said:

Remind me again, what was broken with the current captain skill setup.

As someone put it on the official page for the skill rework, it's a solution looking for a problem, nothing more.

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4 minutes ago, gillhunter said:

Remind me again, what was broken with the current captain skill setup.

Nothing, really.  

"Massive AA" needs a total rework, Manual Secondaries needs some tweaks -- other than that, there's NOTHING wrong with the current skills. 

This change has nothing to do with making the game better, and everything to do with extending the grind and throwing random changes at players to "keep it fresh". 

Edited by KilljoyCutter
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4 minutes ago, gillhunter said:

Remind me again, what was broken with the current captain skill setup.

Sure, uhhh, it was... I actually can't remember what was broken, either...

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9 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:
  1. PRIORITY TARGET GOES UP TO 2 POINTS!

Remember when we had to use a point to determine if we were detected or not? And then they said "all ships are all knowing" so we got that free point skill. They just recouped that one point back from us...

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8 minutes ago, gillhunter said:

Remind me again, what was broken with the current captain skill setup.

Not enough grind.

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3 minutes ago, Khafni said:

Remember when we had to use a point to determine if we were detected or not? And then they said "all ships are all knowing" so we got that free point skill. They just recouped that one point back from us...

 

 

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The skill rework is something like: I have a solution, but it didn't match to the problem.

Make it short: use doubloons to transfer your ship xp to elite xp and get your 19 point captains to max. 

The whole system is crap for players with many captains. I have something like... 250, 40 of them at 19 points. Surely I can make it in one month of free reskill through all of them.

Just another way to pinch some extra cash out of the whales.

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27 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

Nothing, really.  

"Massive AA" needs a total rework, Manual Secondaries needs some tweaks -- other than that, there's NOTHING wrong with the current skills. 

This change has nothing to do with making the game better, and everything to do with extending the grind and throwing random changes at players to "keep it fresh". 

There are a few things here and there to gripe about, and I would be all in favor of expanding upon and improving the skill tree to improve diversity in captain builds and make certain play styles more viable.....but I don't think the core system needed to be changed, and I would have much preferred simply adding new skills rather than taking things away and doing a complete rebalance.

Edited by yashma
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Why fix it with a Band-aide when you can AMPUTATE!!??

Seems to be a theme here.

AmazingOnlyEuropeanfiresalamander-size_restricted.gif

Edited by Col_Nasty
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No to this change.., I actually *like* being able to take funky captain skills that are not "ideal" but are specialized.

Let's say they release a special Commonwealth captain,..my current Haida guy then becomes a secondary buffed DD captain, to get a few more of those DD CQBs. I love Azuma and Yoshino's secondaries, let me buff them as I please, even if it costs me in other areas, I have the choice to be "that guy"

Supercruisers feel the burn far too much with this implementation of a skill rework, they are my second favorite class, I cannot support this.

 

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6 minutes ago, yashma said:

There are a few things here and there to gripe about, and I would be all in favor of expanding upon and improving the skill tree to improve diversity in captain builds and make certain play styles more viable.....but I don't think the core system needed to be changed, and I would have much preferred simply adding new skills rather than taking things away and doing a complete rebalance.

Agreed, I'm all for changes, but this looks too sudden, too massive, too rushed to be a prudent idea. Let alone that there are other issues more in need of change...

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1 hour ago, warheart1992 said:

Good:

  1. Each commander gets separate skills for section for each ship type. This should allow some variety
  2. The above applies to Unique Commanders as well, making it easier to use them. Again, unique commanders with previously incompatible bonuses can put them to good use in different classes.
  3. Increased amount of skill points. Could give more room to expand on skills.
  4. Non 21 point Commanders still earn ECXP. Could somewhat offset the larger amount of CXP you have to earn.
  5. You can dismiss Commanders to get back some ECXP. See above.
  6. Reduced amount of CXP to retrain Commanders. Reductions in costs are always welcome.... Provided there's no caveat.
  7. A bit more specialized selection of skills instead of some more prevalent cookie cutter builds that exist now. It's pretty true and not all too bad to shake things up a bit

Sounds pretty good so far now right? Let's get onto the bad and very ugly now.

Bad:

  1. As commander retraining now costs half the amount of XP, the ability to accelerate retraining time using credits was removed. You just get the 50% option for 200k credits automatically basically, but now you deal with 21 points, not 19.
  2. Your 19 point Commander is elite no more, meaning there is a huge amount of CXP you have to grind yet again to max him out.
  3. Tech tree ship Commanders have to still be retrained. You practically get full benefit out of the separate skills for each ship type only through premium ships.
  4. Certain super cruisers that favoured unique builds (like secondary Siegfried) are unable to benefit. A skill revamp that would allow ships to follow deeper specializations doesn't allow unique builds
  5. Certain CLs with DD caliber main battery can no longer benefit from skills such as AFT and BFT. Aside from Smolensk most of these aren't broken, meaning these changes further nerf them.

Very ugly:

  1. As far as I know there hasn't been any real testing on the proposed changes, yet they are planned to be the first patch of 2021.
  2. To expand there are other fronts which are still open such as CV balance and the potential of subs. Keep in mind that if and when subs will make it into the game there will be another skill revamp. WG is unable to address current issues quickly and efficiently, yet are supposed to be able to tackle multiple problems in two months?
  3. A single month of free respecs, while seemingly enough, isn't really much. With an already fragile balance that could easily change in the near future there should be more time allowed for respecs, especially considering the massive skill changes.
  4. A skill rework done with the purpose of adressing that:

    Yet actively bars classes from picking skills other than the ones on their class section. I hope I'm not the only one who sees the irony in this.

  5. Players with multiple 19 point Commanders that weren't hard to get once you got 3-4 rolling will have to do insane grinds to be able to max skills again, or blow through millions of ECXP.

Potential solution and verdict:

 

Want to get real feedback? For two weeks update the whole game or a specific server to use the skill revamp, then obtain actual feedback by actual surveys from all the players. Use premium time/doubloons, I don't know as a reward, but also get large scale responses, not something like:

Which was probably less than 5% of the playerbase on forums and something similar on reddit.

As it is, my verdict is:

200.gif

MerryHeftyGavial-size_restricted.gif

Shorter summary:

Very little, if anything good. Some things look real bad. Mostly flat out ugly, particularly for cruisers.

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Word up for people with TLDRs to their posts:

1. Put your TLDR first, becaused, if it’s TL, I DR, which is kind of the point of summarizing with a TLDR in the first place, right?

2. Along the same line of thought, don’t make your TLDR, T damn L!

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58 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:
  1. PRIORITY TARGET GOES UP TO 2 POINTS!

Which means, in reality, it costs three points to get it - because you have to throw down one point for a one-point skill to get the keys to the PT skill.

That leaves you with 18 points, which in effect reduces your captain a 19-pointer in a 21-point world. 

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6 minutes ago, MannyD_of_The_Sea said:

Which means, in reality, it costs three points to get it - because you have to throw down one point for a one-point skill to get the keys to the PT skill.

That leaves you with 18 points, which in effect reduces your captain a 19-pointer in a 21-point world. 

The effect of a 21-point captain in the new system will be the same or worse than the effect of a 19-point captain in the old system anyway.  

Same as with any MMO skill/power rework, the point here is to make players grind longer or pay more for the same or less effect. 

 

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1 hour ago, warheart1992 said:

Want to get real feedback?

No.. I don't think they do.. or they would have asked up front about this move... as they didn't even mention it until they already had it worked out in their heads...  did they listen to advice about the CV in Beta or that people do not want subs *in* the game?
 

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1 hour ago, gillhunter said:

Remind me again, what was broken with the current captain skill setup.

Easy, too many people had 19-point commanders farming other 19-point commanders because of the way ECXP was generated. As a result, they have decided to trim this down by forcing everyone to grind all their existing commanders to 21 points to accomplish the same thing that 19 points previously accomplished, thus burning through large quantities of existing ECXP and FXP in the system.

Of course, what we had all wanted was for them to fix the AA skills that were wrecked by the CV rework, and maybe have the option to have higher-point commanders. WG heard that last part, but it looks like they thought the reason we wanted that was so we could grind another 700K-1M commander XP on our existing 19-point captains to do at best the same thing our 19-point captains are doing right now, when the real reason we wanted it was to have more flexible build options.

Edited by RainbowFartingUnicorn
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31 minutes ago, yashma said:

There are a few things here and there to gripe about, and I would be all in favor of expanding upon and improving the skill tree to improve diversity in captain builds and make certain play styles more viable.....but I don't think the core system needed to be changed, and I would have much preferred simply adding new skills rather than taking things away and doing a complete rebalance.

That's what it is though. A lot of the same skills still exist, reshuffled to better reflect their value for points, with new skills added. Even between the trees there are a LOT of similar ones. And the point of having specific sections you can pull from prevent player mistakes such as +HP per tier on battleships for example, and allowing the skills to be crafted to the class which does present some tough choices, especially for battleships in their 3 and 4 point lines. Cruiser and DD skills lean more toward min max or versatile, and carriers as a whole actually have an alternative option whereas before they did not. Even if i don't like carriers in the game, i can objectively say that giving them skill options is the right thing to do.

Actually compare the skills from old to new, almost every one does the same thing and only some are repositioned in cost of points, with new skills added. That is exactly what you are asking for, and not the complete rebalance you claim it to be.

1 hour ago, warheart1992 said:

Bad:

  1. As commander retraining now costs half the amount of XP, the ability to accelerate retraining time using credits was removed. You just get the 50% option for 200k credits automatically basically, but now you deal with 21 points, not 19.
  2. Your 19 point Commander is elite no more, meaning there is a huge amount of CXP you have to grind yet again to max him out.
  3. Tech tree ship Commanders have to still be retrained. You practically get full benefit out of the separate skills for each ship type only through premium ships.
  4. Certain super cruisers that favoured unique builds (like secondary Siegfried) are unable to benefit. A skill revamp that would allow ships to follow deeper specializations doesn't allow unique builds
  5. Certain CLs with DD caliber main battery can no longer benefit from skills such as AFT and BFT. Aside from Smolensk most of these aren't broken, meaning these changes further nerf them.

Very ugly:

  1. As far as I know there hasn't been any real testing on the proposed changes, yet they are planned to be the first patch of 2021.
  2. To expand there are other fronts which are still open such as CV balance and the potential of subs. Keep in mind that if and when subs will make it into the game there will be another skill revamp. WG is unable to address current issues quickly and efficiently, yet are supposed to be able to tackle multiple problems in two months?
  3. A single month of free respecs, while seemingly enough, isn't really much. With an already fragile balance that could easily change in the near future there should be more time allowed for respecs, especially considering the massive skill changes.
  4. A skill rework done with the purpose of adressing that:

    Yet actively bars classes from picking skills other than the ones on their class section. I hope I'm not the only one who sees the irony in this.

  5. Players with multiple 19 point Commanders that weren't hard to get once you got 3-4 rolling will have to do insane grinds to be able to max skills again, or blow through millions of ECXP.

 

"bad"

1, the 21 points would still cost the exact same xp to retrain if they kept the 200k credit payment and didn't halve the xp cost because of that change. They save you a redundant 200k payment, and with more power (19 to 21) comes more cost.

2, since the skills are largely the same, the extra 2 points isn't going to equate to the same power as the old skill tree builds. you may have the desire to reshuffle with those 2 points to get a new 3 pointer (or 4) but that is a long term plan you can make with your free respec when the changes are released, just like you would if you were making a new captain from 0-21. you would plan.

3, which is still a benefit to the change. not really possible for a POSITIVE change in your favor to be BAD unless you are whining that this nice thing they are trying to do isn't enough.

4, I can actually agree with you here, super cruisers that favored hybrid skills for cruisers and BBs will lose access to those BB skills, such as fire prevention.

5, True as well, however supplemental buffs to their range afterward can compensate them if it's actually needed. The same can be said for 4.

"ugly"

1, Depends on what you mean by real testing. It's probably gone through ST a couple times, and it will be in the public test as everything always is.

2, Yes, there are no skills related to sub interaction directly or anti sub tools anywhere in the tree. That doesn't mean there will be a skill revamp. You could add the submarine tree and not add any new skills for the other classes and be just fine depending on how subs themselves are balanced.

3, + the PTS beforehand and ALL the PTS after, you have plenty of opportunity to test things for relatively free before committing to a set of skills. You can spend the free respec for every commander you have and not actually pick the new skills for months and months.

4, Technically, every class has MORE skills available to them since they were purpose built for that class as a whole. And almost all the old skills are still in each of their trees. 

5, 2 points isn't really going to change your performance. I wouldn't weigh the work to get them very heavily in your mind or you will be dissapointed.

1 hour ago, Khafni said:

Remember when we had to use a point to determine if we were detected or not? And then they said "all ships are all knowing" so we got that free point skill. They just recouped that one point back from us...

It's more about PT being a standard skill for all classes. This time they didn't want to make it universal, and instead increased the cost so it wouldn't be so common. They want you to make choices.

 

1 hour ago, KilljoyCutter said:

Nothing, really.  

"Massive AA" needs a total rework, Manual Secondaries needs some tweaks -- other than that, there's NOTHING wrong with the current skills. 

This change has nothing to do with making the game better, and everything to do with extending the grind and throwing random changes at players to "keep it fresh". 

Other than the lack of variety in builds, which was their goal to address.

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Have a look at ST 0.10.0 Captain Skill Rework: Feedback

The colored skills show how this is a monkey with a typewriter trying to get Hamlet.

Maybe I´m wrong but seems WG tries to get rid of old players so they can finally convert this into a "shoot them all arcade".

Much the same they did in WoT. 

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18 minutes ago, Pulicat said:

carriers as a whole actually have an alternative option whereas before they did not. 

:cap_haloween:

No, they dont.

Those fighter skills are so weak that no serious person will take them.

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