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JohnPJones

change my mind

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any modern warship of 2000tons or more in naval service should at minimum be armed with a 40mm gun and missile based CIWS system these days, with capability for further systems to be installed, whether that's more guns, ASMs, more SAMs, MCM, or ASW systems, i strongly hold the opinion that this habit of building 2000ton or larger OPVs that are already overgunned for the duties they're assigned, but way under gunned for any actual conflict is a bit ridiculous.

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Define missile based CIWS, that can be a lot of infrastructure for what’s still a small ship. But yeah, I agree you should be carrying enough firepower to see off at least equal sized combatants. Actually probably more important for small ships since they’re most likely to be put in situations where close range surface actions are possible, if not likely.

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34 minutes ago, AJTP89 said:

Define missile based CIWS, that can be a lot of infrastructure for what’s still a small ship. But yeah, I agree you should be carrying enough firepower to see off at least equal sized combatants. Actually probably more important for small ships since they’re most likely to be put in situations where close range surface actions are possible, if not likely.

RAM/SEARAM equivalent.

 

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59 minutes ago, AJTP89 said:

Define missile based CIWS, that can be a lot of infrastructure for what’s still a small ship. But yeah, I agree you should be carrying enough firepower to see off at least equal sized combatants. Actually probably more important for small ships since they’re most likely to be put in situations where close range surface actions are possible, if not likely.

 

Not really a problem for a 1400 ton vessel.  This thing has an 8 missile launcher on the back.

 

vDEADd3.jpg

 

 

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1 hour ago, JohnPJones said:

any modern warship of 2000tons or more in naval service should at minimum be armed with a 40mm gun and missile based CIWS system these days, with capability for further systems to be installed, whether that's more guns, ASMs, more SAMs, MCM, or ASW systems, i strongly hold the opinion that this habit of building 2000ton or larger OPVs that are already overgunned for the duties they're assigned, but way under gunned for any actual conflict is a bit ridiculous.

 

Not a problem when this and other corvettes already fill the bill.  

 

Zrvms9i.jpg

 

Rapid firing dual purpose 76mm gun, check.

Two 30mm autocannons check.

Variable depth towed array sonar check.

Six torpedo tubes check.

Helicopter deck check.

8 missile CIWS check.

4 antiship missiles check.

 

As for RAM you can go cheaper and lighter by using a simpler 8 tube launcher design without the Phalanx radar you see on SeaRAM.   

Edited by Eisennagel

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1 hour ago, Eisennagel said:

 

Not a problem when this and other corvettes already fill the bill.  

 

Zrvms9i.jpg

 

Rapid firing dual purpose 76mm gun, check.

Two 30mm autocannons check.

Variable depth towed array sonar check.

Six torpedo tubes check.

Helicopter deck check.

8 missile CIWS check.

4 antiship missiles check.

 

As for RAM you can go cheaper and lighter by using a simpler 8 tube launcher design without the Phalanx radar you see on SeaRAM.   

my point being that there's no reason not to have some real combat capabilities on ships of that size, and no reason not to have the ability to up arm them in the even of conflict.

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1 hour ago, Eisennagel said:

 

Something like this should be good for coastal patrol.

 

WyJXDDN.jpg

 

 

yep and that's what? 800tons max?

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39 minutes ago, JohnPJones said:

my point being that there's no reason not to have some real combat capabilities on ships of that size, and no reason not to have the ability to up arm them in the even of conflict.

 

You can strip out the ship for various options, creating different variants for customer needs, leaving only what you need like this Nigerian vessel.

 

xB4rt3R.jpg

 

Or keep the missile CIWS and the antiship missiles minus the towed array, like this Bangladeshi vessel.

 

tY737tW.jpg

 

The ships can easily be converted into a coast guard ship at the dockyard.   

 

e0o5wLQ.jpg

 

Usually older corvettes and light frigates are converted into coast guard cutters, but it may not be easy the other way around, as coast guard vessels tend to be equipped for fire fighting and rescue.    

 

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1 minute ago, Eisennagel said:

 

 

You can strip out the ship for various options, creating different variants for customer needs, leaving only what you need like this Nigerian vessel.

 

xB4rt3R.jpg

 

Or keep the missile CIWS and the antiship missiles minus the towed array, like this Bangladeshi vessel.

 

tY737tW.jpg

 

The ships can easily be converted into a coast guard ship at the dockyard.   

 

e0o5wLQ.jpg

 

Usually older corvettes and light frigates are converted into coast guard cutters, but it may not be easy the other way around, as coast guard vessels tend to be equipped for fire fighting and rescue.    

 

i'm not criticizing the shipbuilders, i'm criticizing the clients lol

a 40ft yatch with a 12.7mm in a RWS and LMGs on the bridgewings could perform all of the nominal peacetime duties of an OPV, so i just don't understand this thing where navies purchase ships in the 2000ton range and arm them with only a 20-30mm gun(likely not even a real DP gun like the millenium gun) and a pair of MGs to look for smugglers and illegal fishing...

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20 minutes ago, JohnPJones said:

yep and that's what? 800tons max?

 

230 tons max, Muravey class patrol boats.  Serves with the Russians and the Ukrainians.  Comes with a 76mm gun and a 30mm CIWS at the back, with some torpedo tubes.  The Ukrainians had some patrol vessels similar to what you were describing that the Russians took over, then later gave back.

 

When you get to over 500 tons, you get into the Tarantuls.

 

ew9X49R.jpg

 

 

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3 minutes ago, JohnPJones said:

i'm not criticizing the shipbuilders, i'm criticizing the clients lol

a 40ft yatch with a 12.7mm in a RWS and LMGs on the bridgewings could perform all of the nominal peacetime duties of an OPV, so i just don't understand this thing where navies purchase ships in the 2000ton range and arm them with only a 20-30mm gun(likely not even a real DP gun like the millenium gun) and a pair of MGs to look for smugglers and illegal fishing...

 

These ships are likely to keep some marines onboard when they go for anti-pirate and anti-smuggler patrols.   They can shoot from the sides of the ship.  

 

 

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Just now, Eisennagel said:

 

230 tons max, Muravey class patrol boats.  Serves with the Russians and the Ukrainians.  Comes with a 76mm gun and a 30mm CIWS at the back, with some torpedo tubes.  The Ukrainians had some patrol vessels similar to what you were describing that the Russians took over, then later gave back.

 

When you get to over 500 tons, you get into the Tarantuls.

 

ew9X49R.jpg

 

 

ya it was kinda hard to judge size based on the picture, but ya that's my point a ship that's only a few hundred tons can perform all the peacetime duties of an OPV, and something like the zeeland, or batch II river class seems like a waste of money...the zeeland has a 76mm great...but what scenario did their navy really envision where it would need/use that 76mm gun, but didn't need some form of CIWS or ASMs?

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Just now, Eisennagel said:

 

These ships are likely to keep some marines onboard when they go for anti-pirate and anti-smuggler patrols.   They can shoot from the sides of the ship.  

 

 

you can put some marines on smaller vessels as well. you can build accomodations for marines/operators/rescuees on a ship that's 500 tons.

i just don't see the point of building a ship the size of a typical corvette that's overarmed for their missions, but underarmed for an actual fight should they face a situation outside of their missions.

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18 minutes ago, JohnPJones said:

you can put some marines on smaller vessels as well. you can build accomodations for marines/operators/rescuees on a ship that's 500 tons.

i just don't see the point of building a ship the size of a typical corvette that's overarmed for their missions, but underarmed for an actual fight should they face a situation outside of their missions.

 

Maybe Malaysia's Littoral Mission Ship?  These things can be reconfigured for antiship missiles depending on the mission.

 

c52dDuZ.jpg

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Eisennagel said:

 

Maybe Malaysia's Littoral Mission Ship?  These things can be reconfigured for antiship missiles depending on the mission.

 

c52dDuZ.jpg

 

 

exactly, smaller than a river or zeeland, but makes so much more sense. mission module area can up gun it to be useful in a real conflict

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