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contag10n

Lazo or Bagration for Russian Trainer?

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Which Armory ship would serve as a better trainer for the Russian Cruiser line?

I will be moving up the German and Russian Cruiser lines and have a trainer for the Germans.

I will be using the Armory dub coupon to pick this ship up. No other option (too bad there is no BF option). This is for my "almost" FTP reroll

Lazo:

  • Cheaper by 3K dubs
  • Can be used in Operations (Which is not the credit, FXP farm it used to be but still nice)
  • Meshes with the CL line well
  • Kinda a mehbote

Bagration:

  • Better earning potential. 
  • Meshes with the CA line
  • I thought Tallin was an O,K. boat. A little better than Schores
  • Kinda a mehboat as well

Note: I am not considering the Kirov. T5 is just too hard to train with and saving my coal for something else.

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8 minutes ago, contag10n said:

Which Armory ship would serve as a better trainer for the Russian Cruiser line?

I will be moving up the German and Russian Cruiser lines and have a trainer for the Germans.

I will be using the Armory dub coupon to pick this ship up. No other option (too bad there is no BF option). This is for my "almost" FTP reroll

Lazo:

  • Cheaper by 3K dubs
  • Can be used in Operations (Which is not the credit, FXP farm it used to be but still nice)
  • Meshes with the CL line well
  • Kinda a mehbote

Bagration:

  • Better earning potential. 
  • Meshes with the CA line
  • I thought Tallin was an O,K. boat. A little better than Schores
  • Kinda a mehboat as well

Note: I am not considering the Kirov. T5 is just too hard to train with and saving my coal for something else.

In my personal opinion, I think that both are decent ships that can make for decent trainers for either line. My 2 cents would to go with the ship that you feel will bring you the most enjoyment and feel the most comfortable playing. 

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Which RU cruiser line are you planning on moving up? Both eventually? Where are you right now?

Bear in mind that 3000 dubs less is a T8 permacamo's worth if you should need one later.

You point out correctly that Lazo can run Narai and Bagration cannot (if Cherry Blossom were ever to return then Bagration could run that, but I don't think anyone's holding their breath on that one).  Against that, however, Bagration can run the permanent campaigns for Shinonome, Halsey and Yamamoto, and the final stage of Five Epochs, which is something that Lazo cannot do.

If you're getting the ship for a reroll account and haven't done those permanent campaigns yet, Bagration might be your better pick - especially since there is a way through both Halsey and Yamamoto that leans solely on XP and credits and doesn't depend on the ship you use or what you accomplish in it. It's slow, but it's there.

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I find Bagration a really good general purpose ship, useful for all sorts of mission grinding as well as crew training. Its one of my go-to ships just for casual warm-up games.

Lazo is also a good ship, but its more fragile and specialised - very Schors/Chapayev.

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The two have very different play styles, so if you want to spam HE go Lazo, and if you want to blap cruisers with AP go Bag. And I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the current state of tier 7 MM here - my Shchors is constantly in tier 9 games. Lots of fun when cyclones come in, too.

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8 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

  Against that, however, Bagration can run the permanent campaigns for Shinonome, Halsey and Yamamoto, and the final stage of Five Epochs, which is something that Lazo cannot do.

 

And this is why I posted. Something I had not thought about!! 

To answer some other questions:

  • I will go up both RU lines eventually
  • I like both the kiting HE playstyle as well as the bow-tanking punish broadside AP play. Donskoi is one of my favorites and play a lot of Moskva/Petro/Stalin in competitive. I really didn't have a RU cruiser I didn't like

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If what is “better as a trainer” is limited to the game economy, then Bagration, as a T8, wins. It yields better.

If, however, we view training as a means of teaching YOU, the player, a discipline, then a case could be made the the extreme “shoot and dance at range” play of the Lazo will better hone your skills for high-tier Russian cruiser play.

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If you’re good with a spotter plane the Lazo has a nearly continual spotter if you set her up for that. Long range to spam HE like crazy. Just a thought...

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I do not have the bags but the lazo can be a MONSTER , if played at distance.....you out range much of what you see , definitely if you are hih tier its not fair...One of my higher winrate ships...I should have made a video on her by now....she reminds me another of the Kutuzov without smoke but stronger because of the lack of firing range of the tiers facing you....if played right it isn't even fair....the spotter plane is a gimmick because of how fast 5he spotter reloads...

Edited by Meta_Man

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15 minutes ago, MannyD_of_The_Sea said:

If, however, we view training as a means of teaching YOU, the player, a discipline, then a case could be made the the extreme “shoot and dance at range” play of the Lazo will better hone your skills for high-tier Russian cruiser play.

He's already said that he plays Moskva/Petro/Stalin competitively on his main account, so I'm pretty sure that his desire for a trainer on the reroll is Captain-Experience-economy driven and he's comfortable with the characteristics of both lines.

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54 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

He's already said that he plays Moskva/Petro/Stalin competitively on his main account, so I'm pretty sure that his desire for a trainer on the reroll is Captain-Experience-economy driven and he's comfortable with the characteristics of both lines.

Public forum - not every answer needs to be fit solely for the consumption of the OP.

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29 minutes ago, MannyD_of_The_Sea said:

Public forum - not every answer needs to be fit solely for the consumption of the OP.

No, but IMHO it should make some attempt to address his context.

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2 hours ago, contag10n said:

Which Armory ship would serve as a better trainer for the Russian Cruiser line?

I will be moving up the German and Russian Cruiser lines and have a trainer for the Germans.

I will be using the Armory dub coupon to pick this ship up. No other option (too bad there is no BF option). This is for my "almost" FTP reroll

Lazo:

  • Cheaper by 3K dubs
  • Can be used in Operations (Which is not the credit, FXP farm it used to be but still nice)
  • Meshes with the CL line well
  • Kinda a mehbote

Bagration:

  • Better earning potential. 
  • Meshes with the CA line
  • I thought Tallin was an O,K. boat. A little better than Schores
  • Kinda a mehboat as well

Note: I am not considering the Kirov. T5 is just too hard to train with and saving my coal for something else.

It comes down to which side of the line you prefer.  Lazo and Bagration are both good ships.  Lazo is simply a Schors with a one second longer reload but a super fast cooldown on her spotter, which really comes in handy when you're bottom tier as you can keep the range open giving you more time to dodge incoming rounds.  I pretty much don't play Schors anymore because Lazo is better.

Bagration is interesting because unlike the other new RU cruisers she doesn't get the dispersion penalty that they do at long range.  So given her great AP with moderately improved auto-bounce angles she can use her AP effectively out to the extent of her range.  Decent armor and a heal come in handy as well.  I really like the Bagration, she's a good premium.

They're both good premiums, with Lazo you're going to be using HE most of the time, with Bagration you're going to want to use AP most of the time.

  • Cool 1

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10 minutes ago, Aaron_S_Merrill said:

 

Bagration is interesting because unlike the other new RU cruisers she doesn't get the dispersion penalty that they do at long range.  So given her great AP with moderately improved auto-bounce angles she can use her AP effectively out to the extent of her range.  Decent armor and a heal come in handy as well.  I really like the Bagration, she's a good premium.

Thanks for that Bagrat summary. 

I have the Lazo, just don't play it often on this account. It is a nice boat.

Leaning toward the Bagrat atm, which is a flip from when I posted.

I do appreciate all the thoughts on both.

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Lazo if playing for fun (It feels like a Mickey Mouse version of Moskva). Bagration if you like to play patiently and send AP's into ship sides. The latter also most resembles the German cruiser line. 

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24 minutes ago, Toxygene said:

Lazo if playing for fun (It feels like a Mickey Mouse version of Moskva). Bagration if you like to play patiently and send AP's into ship sides. The latter also most resembles the German cruiser line. 

Hmm never thought of Moskva and Lazy as similar. 

One is a nicely armored (for a CA) bow tanker with nice AP and the other is a long range HE spammer

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1 minute ago, contag10n said:

Hmm never thought of Moskva and Lazy as similar. 

Well maybe I am playing one of them the wrong way. I tend to sail around in both Lazo and Moskva and spam HE from range. Only use AP when someone insists on showing me sides.

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Neither.  Lazo is a Tier VII CL and the IFHE / Armor Update gutted Tier VII CL HE FIrepower.

 

Bagration is a troubled Premium Ship, especially in rear gun angles.

 

If you want a Premium RU Cruiser as a trainer, there is only one good one.  Moskva in Tier X for 244k Coal.  She's been in the game for almost as long as the game has been Live as RU Cruisers are one of the first post-launch ship lines.  Lots of people here got the low down on her.  Moskva is a ship of extremes.  If one manages to play where her strengths are maximized, she is annoying a.f. to deal with.  But if one doesn't play her like a RU Cruiser should, then you're going to have problems.

 

Mind you, all RU Cruisers are like this.  It's just that if you "RU Cruiser the right way" then of all the available RU Premium Cruisers, Moskva is definitely going to shine.

 

+ She has a superior 50mm icebreaker bow than Petropavlovsk.  Annoyingly tough on the front, multiple BBs have given up against my bow tanking Moskva.

+ 220m RU Cruiser Guns are Railguns.  Connecting at range is not a problem.  Moskva's guns are the original "Railguns" of WoWS.

+ Both HE & AP are solid and strong.

- Like other RU Cruisers, sails like sh*t but decent in speed.

- Awful Concealment, Petro is actually stealthier.  There is no sneaking around.

- Large ship (RU Cruisers in Tier X are all big girls)

- Exposed Citadel

 

With her bad concealment, large size, exposed Citadel, I will give a piece of advice about her from mistakes, lessons learned:  Don't be too eager adopting bow on tactics with her to the point where you deprive yourself of options when things start getting sour.  If your flank is a beginning to collapse, you need to see the signs well in advance and know when it's time to bail.  If you stay bow on too long then escape, with that bad concealment, large size becomes impossible.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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2 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Bagration is a troubled Premium Ship, especially in rear gun angles.

Besides the firing angles how is Bagration "troubled" ?

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14 minutes ago, Aaron_S_Merrill said:

Besides the firing angles how is Bagration "troubled" ?

The bad gun angles on a kite is a very significant issue because kiting is what Cruisers find themselves doing a lot.  Tempted to use all guns can lead to bad things.

Poor Cruiser Concealment.

RU "CAs" have good AP and very mediocre HE.  If the target is showing sides then you'll have a good time.  If the target is well angled / bow on then you have to resort to their poor HE shells or switch targets.

RU Cruisers sail poorly.

RU Cruisers are large targets.

RU Cruisers get squishy sides.  The bad gun angles compounds this issue when tempted to use more guns.

At Tier VIII P.Bagration has no gimmick armor to save her.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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@HazeGrayUnderway

Love Moskva, but this will be a dubloon purchase with coupon. So of the options in the armory it came down to Lazo vs Bagrat.

The first coal ship purchase will be the Pom and it's a few months down the road.

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6 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The bad gun angles on a kite is a very significant issue because kiting is what Cruisers find themselves doing a lot.  Tempted to use all guns can lead to bad things.

Poor Cruiser Concealment.

RU "CAs" have good AP and very mediocre HE.  If the target is showing sides then you'll have a good time.  If the target is well angled / bow on then you have to resort to their poor HE shells or switch targets.

RU Cruisers sail poorly.

RU Cruisers are large targets.

RU Cruisers get squishy sides.  The bad gun angles compounds this issue when tempted to use more guns.

At Tier VIII P.Bagration has no gimmick armor to save her.

Yet none of these have really been an issue for me.  Are there better cruisers at Tier 8?  Sure.  I'd rather play Bagration than Tallinn and several other Tier 8 cruisers.  I'll freely admit I have some bias as I have had really good results in her, but she's a better ship than you think.

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I don't have the Lazo but the BOOBIES( I know, Jingles lol) has a heal and 8kl torps so you might want to concider that as neither has radar.

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Picked up the Bagration and have been VERY happy. Only played Co Op with it so far, but it is a beast there.

AP pens everything (if you aim well) and prints Cits on CAs.

It has been exactly what I was looking for. Lazo is a nice ship, have it on this account, but Bagrat, yeah....

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