Addressing the biggest problem with the game right now

[Moggytwo]

It's time to address the elephant in the room with this game, and the biggest issue affecting the way each battle plays out in the current meta, and that is the absurdly high popularity of battleships.  I've been seeing 100+ BB's constantly in the high tier queue every night for months now, and lately often over 200.  This is the queue when I loaded up a tier 8 ship this evening:

This wasn't a one off, it was basically at that level all night, and it's been steadily going up and up for months now.

Firstly, what effect does this crazy popularity have on the game?  Well it means you have five (and recently in my experience a fair few battles with six) battleships per team, every single battle - five BB's per team have been the standard for years now!  The problem with this is that battleships slow the play down and make for a static and boring meta.  Those battles with less battleships are quicker paced, more dynamic, and in my opinion far more enjoyable.  This just ruins the way the game plays every single battle, and it's painful to experience.  Those occasions (normally outside peak times) when I get the pleasure of playing a battle with three BB's per team rather than five are an absolute joy, as the game play opens up, flanking and incursion play becomes far more viable, and the meta is completely transformed.

So why are battleships so popular?  The reasons are simple, and it is not just because they are a very powerful class - the main reason is that battleships are a comfortable safe space for many players.  The class coddles you as everything happens relatively slowly, small mistakes that would get a cruiser or destroyer killed or neutered go relatively unpunished, and even huge mistakes in positioning give you a minute or two to get used to the idea that you're about to die, rather than suffering the mental shear of the near instant death that a similarly monumental mistake would give you in a cruiser or destroyer.

In this way, battleships are a bit like playing playing the game while snuggling your favourite cuddly toy from when you were a kid - they just make the experience a bit more comfortable, even the unpleasant stuff.

So how can we fix this problem?  Well the main thing that needs to happen is the battleship cuddly toy needs to be removed - there needs to be the terrifying and real threat of rapid or instant death for relatively small mistakes, in the same way that cruisers and destroyers have this constant uncomfortable thought in the back of their mind that if they stuff up, it could all end very quickly indeed.  Battleships need that constant uncomfortable nagging thought as well. 

Only this will even up the playing field to the point that battleship players, who don't realise they mainly choose to queue up a BB because it's their comfort blanket, will be much more inclined to queue up another class.  It's a freeing concept really.

How to do this?  Well there are a number of ways, but a couple of things I would suggest would be to dramatically increase the vulnerability of battleships to broadside AP salvos, and to significantly increase the damage taken from single torpedoes (perhaps a torp citadel mechanic that effects BB's only?).  I would say a fairly gradual move in this direction would be better, while keeping an eye on population numbers.  Ideally a 1/3/4/4 (CV/BB/CA/DD) would in my opinion lead to the most enjoyable meta, with a +/-1 to all of those to allow for natural battle variation, so this is what WG should be aiming for, to give the most healthy and dynamic game.

In the end, it's not so much the method that's important, as the result - battleships need to be scared of consequences far more than they are now, if we want to fix the battleship problem that is stagnating and grinding down this game.

[LowSpeed_US]

We have reached level two. Denial stage (from WG).  Expect incoming from BB community.

 

 

[Bonfor]

Yes, BBs are powerful in their own right, but they can be countered by DDs, but DDs are countered by CVs, and without a lot of DDs, fewer need to bring CA/CLs, so it could be a chain reaction all stemming from CVs outspotting and terrorizing DDs, making DDs require a high skill level to even survive, so DD numbers drop which affects the rest of the food chain.

[Ensign_Cthulhu]

This does not reflect what I have been seeing. I've never seen BB counts that high.

Battleships are by their very nature more resilient than cruisers, destroyers or carriers. However, there is always the risk of an unavoidable devstrike from an unspotted destroyer or another BB that catches your side and dumps several citadels into you or detonates you if you omitted Juliet Charlie flags. Battleships are by no means immune from insta-deletion.

But this...

10 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

even huge mistakes in positioning give you a minute or two to get used to the idea that you're about to die, rather than suffering the mental shear of the near instant death that a similarly monumental mistake would give you in a cruiser or destroyer.

...if this game is giving you that much mental stress, maybe you need to give it a break.

[Whitebuster]

I suspect that everyone bought a Jean Bart B and are playing them right now. The number of BBs in queue has always been higher than other classes, but I've never seen that high of a number.

[CaptainKaitoGhost]

I will gladly play with extra battleships if it means I play with less CVs.

[SkaerKrow]

Crying about battleships? At least the anti-CV crowd is within a stone’s throw of having a point. This topic is pure nonsense. 

[SilverPhatShips]

Well what is least affected by the new CV Meta?

 What is most helped by the new CV Meta?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm I  This isn't rocket science people...

[Skpstr]

32 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

In the end, it's not so much the method that's important, as the result - battleships need to be scared of consequences far more than they are now, if we want to fix the battleship problem that is stagnating and grinding down this game.

Best thing to do is rotate the dispersion ellipse, or disable speed below half throttle (including reverse) unless you hit an island.

I mean sure, we can make BBs more vulnerable to instant death, but then we'd have to make them more able to avoid being hit.

 

[Lord_Slayer]

32 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

 

21 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

 I've never seen BB counts that high.

Last time I saw BB levels that high was during the launches for the BB lines for the Germans, RN, and French.

As someone said, people are likely out in their Jean Barts (of both colors) and either working the missions or trying the thing out.

There is also the last part of the US BB event ending.

[Martin31415]

I think 5 or 6 BBs per side sounds about right. They are the main fleet. Cruisers and DDs support by exploiting weaknesses etc.

Just because one player prefers a faster pace, doesn't mean the game is broken.

If you like a face pace how about Call of Duty?

 

[STINKWEED_]

It all comes back to CV rework. Keep adding CVs and you will see less people playing DDs.  It's bad enough for DDs with all the radar and magical radar that sees through islands now add 1-2 CVs, give them untouchable status with unlimited planes and rockets that can take out 40% of a DD's HP in one shot and guess what happens?   Players switch from DDs to BBs. 
Try playing DD in tiers 5 and lower with guaranteed 2 CVs per battle. 
There are consequences for the CV rework now you have to deal with it.  

[Sventex]

44 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

his wasn't a one off, it was basically at that level all night, and it's been steadily going up and up for months now.

It's because everyone and their grandmas is taking their Jean Bart B's out.

[warheart1992]

Black Friday is responsible for this. Many people are gunning for that Jean Bart Black, so they run around in their new ship. Give it a week or so.

[Ensign_Cthulhu]

9 minutes ago, Lord_Slayer said:

There is also the last part of the US BB event ending.

On that note, Carbine Carlito had a review vid out on the Vermont today - apparently the thing is finalized or at least out of NDA now, and my understanding of his impression is that it's much more fun than its predecessors, so maybe this is motivating people to haul out their Minnesotas and go for it?

But yeah, I'd be more inclined to think that people are taking this unexpected, possibly last chance to grab themselves a guaranteed, for-sure, independent-of-RNGesus Jean Bart (in Black form).

Guaranteed if they brought us an Enterprise Black next year, the anti-CV crowd would be just about ready to blow a gasket. I'm all for having CVs in the game at a background level, but judging from the number of Enterprises that dropped from Air Supply crates over the Summer Season, the week or two after even a brief Enty return to the shop might be a very good time to think about playing something other than a DD!

[Meta_Man]

37 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

It's time to address the elephant in the room with this game, and the biggest issue affecting the way each battle plays out in the current meta, and that is the absurdly high popularity of battleships.  I've been seeing 100+ BB's constantly in the high tier queue every night for months now, and lately often over 200.  This is the queue when I loaded up a tier 8 ship this evening:

This wasn't a one off, it was basically at that level all night, and it's been steadily going up and up for months now.

Firstly, what effect does this crazy popularity have on the game?  Well it means you have five (and recently in my experience a fair few battles with six) battleships per team, every single battle - five BB's per team have been the standard for years now!  The problem with this is that battleships slow the play down and make for a static and boring meta.  Those battles with less battleships are quicker paced, more dynamic, and in my opinion far more enjoyable.  This just ruins the way the game plays every single battle, and it's painful to experience.  Those occasions (normally outside peak times) when I get the pleasure of playing a battle with three BB's per team rather than five are an absolute joy, as the game play opens up, flanking and incursion play becomes far more viable, and the meta is completely transformed.

So why are battleships so popular?  The reasons are simple, and it is not just because they are a very powerful class - the main reason is that battleships are a comfortable safe space for many players.  The class coddles you as everything happens relatively slowly, small mistakes that would get a cruiser or destroyer killed or neutered go relatively unpunished, and even huge mistakes in positioning give you a minute or two to get used to the idea that you're about to die, rather than suffering the mental shear of the near instant death that a similarly monumental mistake would give you in a cruiser or destroyer.

In this way, battleships are a bit like playing playing the game while snuggling your favourite cuddly toy from when you were a kid - they just make the experience a bit more comfortable, even the unpleasant stuff.

So how can we fix this problem?  Well the main thing that needs to happen is the battleship cuddly toy needs to be removed - there needs to be the terrifying and real threat of rapid or instant death for relatively small mistakes, in the same way that cruisers and destroyers have this constant uncomfortable thought in the back of their mind that if they stuff up, it could all end very quickly indeed.  Battleships need that constant uncomfortable nagging thought as well. 

Only this will even up the playing field to the point that battleship players, who don't realise they mainly choose to queue up a BB because it's their comfort blanket, will be much more inclined to queue up another class.  It's a freeing concept really.

How to do this?  Well there are a number of ways, but a couple of things I would suggest would be to dramatically increase the vulnerability of battleships to broadside AP salvos, and to significantly increase the damage taken from single torpedoes (perhaps a torp citadel mechanic that effects BB's only?).  I would say a fairly gradual move in this direction would be better, while keeping an eye on population numbers.  Ideally a 1/3/4/4 (CV/BB/CA/DD) would in my opinion lead to the most enjoyable meta, with a +/-1 to all of those to allow for natural battle variation, so this is what WG should be aiming for, to give the most healthy and dynamic game.

In the end, it's not so much the method that's important, as the result - battleships need to be scared of consequences far more than they are now, if we want to fix the battleship problem that is stagnating and grinding down this game.

You are correct that there are more BBs than other types of ships being chosen to play . But why do you think the game needs to fit into your box? I am far from a BB main , but I am not gonna dictate anything to them . It is their choice. People hate CVs , people hate DDs crazy concealment and torping ability , people hate cruisers with OP radar . Let people play what they want , I am not here to tell anyone what or what not to play . I play all classes and love my French destroyers and do well in them , if there was no CV I would even do better in them , but I have never said get rid of CVs . If someone likes a certain class we have no right to say no , get in this other class because we do not care what you want . 

[Spud_butt]

47 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

It's time to address the elephant in the room with this game, and the biggest issue affecting the way each battle plays out in the current meta, and that is the absurdly high popularity of battleships.  I've been seeing 100+ BB's constantly in the high tier queue every night for months now, and lately often over 200.  This is the queue when I loaded up a tier 8 ship this evening:

This wasn't a one off, it was basically at that level all night, and it's been steadily going up and up for months now.

This happens fairly regularly after 8 pm Mountain Time. Typical to see BB counts over 150, altho near 300 seems to be a bit of a spike.

spud

[mofton]

We are in the middle of a US BB release, and Jean Bart is probably the most attractive single Black ship - removed from earlier sale. 

If you look at in game numbers then a queue with a few hundred excess is a small percentage. 

 

I would be more worried about driving battleship players out of the game entirely rather than forcing their migration into other classes. That's not really good for anyone. 

[Moggytwo]

2 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

Black Friday is responsible for this. Many people are gunning for that Jean Bart Black, so they run around in their new ship. Give it a week or so.

Black Friday and JB Black might be responsible for the 280 tonight, but it certainly isn't responsible for the 100 - 200 every night for months now, or the five BB's per team in the vast majority of battles for YEARS now. 

This is the issue, what those high BB numbers per team do to the game. Unfortunately the population problem continues to get worse every month. 

[Meta_Man]

11 minutes ago, STINKWEED_ said:

It all comes back to CV rework. Keep adding CVs and you will see less people playing DDs.  It's bad enough for DDs with all the radar and magical radar that sees through islands now add 1-2 CVs, give them untouchable status with unlimited planes and rockets that can take out 40% of a DD's HP in one shot and guess what happens?   Players switch from DDs to BBs. 
Try playing DD in tiers 5 and lower with guaranteed 2 CVs per battle. 
There are consequences for the CV rework now you have to deal with it.  

Just so happens Musashi and Kamikaze have weak AA right? I guess if almost 25% of my games were played in them I wouldnt like CVs either . 

[El2aZeR]

The last official statement on this is that WG cannot influence what class players prefer to play, therefore BB overpopulation is perfectly fine and does not need to be addressed.

[vak_]

> the biggest problem with the game right now

...is CVs

But WG has made it abundantly clear that they’re fine with things as they are, so whatever. 

[_GreyBeard_]

Only one thing to do in that situation,

Spoiler

Asashio 

 

[motleytanker]

35 minutes ago, Meta_Man said:

You are correct that there are more BBs than other types of ships being chosen to play . But why do you think the game needs to fit into your box? I am far from a BB main , but I am not gonna dictate anything to them . It is their choice. People hate CVs , people hate DDs crazy concealment and torping ability , people hate cruisers with OP radar . Let people play what they want , I am not here to tell anyone what or what not to play . I play all classes and love my French destroyers and do well in them , if there was no CV I would even do better in them , but I have never said get rid of CVs . If someone likes a certain class we have no right to say no , get in this other class because we do not care what you want . 

I 100% agree with you on this.

[Merc_R_Us]

This is not a problem at all in my book. 

Battleships are the damage dealers, and they are also the damage takers. 

When was this by the way? I'd love to catch me some of those games in my MvR.