Jump to content
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
Staberinde_2097

Are Carriers the route of all evil?

32 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

3
[MACHT]
Members
2 posts
2,718 battles

I've seen a lot lately regarding CV's being complained about as a huge problem ruining the game by making it full of camping and holding back, sniping and making people affraid to push. I definitely agree that there are some specific problems with Carriers, and they have a huge issue with not feeling good to play against because their damage is so reliable and it feels like you can't do anything to prevent, or sometimes even mitigate it.

CV's are an issue because they have very reliable damage and it feels very bad when you can't do anything about this. They are also bad because they spot smaller stealthy ships for the entire team. This is NOT the only reason the game has no brawling and no CV games are not 'amazing fun brawl fests without sky cancer'

You get virtually no brawling because they're powercrept CAs and DDs to the point where they have CAs tough enough to sit bow into same tier BBs with no fear that can burn down any BB and DDs that are almost invisible to anything except other DDs with torp ranges out to a billion kilometers, so if you push in and 1 DD isn't spotted, chances are, you just die from fire and flood.

So problem split into 2 parts, the CV's themselves, and the wider issue with not being able to push early in the game.
a) Carriers, these need to be changed so that you have more time to maneuver for their damage, if they always have the ability to damage you reasonably heavily UNLESS you move to avoid it, this is healthy for the game because they can work with surface ship to force enemy angled ships to move or take damage. This helps make the game more mobile by giving teams the tools to push enemy camping positions, and feels better because you CAN avoid CV damage
They also need to be changed with regardst o spotting, probably the easiest way there is to do 'out of range' spotting like Cyclones, however I feel like the other point about DD's means this might be too much, so as a balance. I'd propose you spot them unless you're doing an attack run, at which point you only spot for yourself.

The other issues around carriers are small simple balance issues
i) new German CVs are ridiculously good at dealing reliable, repeated damaging strikes against all targets, with pretty much all of their planes. AP bombs in particular due to the repair efficiency on citadels is just too high, it would probably be better to give them increased 'pen' damage and not let them citadel.
ii) multiple carrier games feel garbage, and no carrier games make AA builds even more pointless to kit your ship out for on top of their minimal effectiveness. Just limit carriers to 1 per game and spread them out across more games.
iii) Potentially fighting carriers at tier 3 is ridiculous, ALL carriers should start at tier 5-6, I'd even suggest as far as shifting them to 7,8,9,10. We have a bunch of lines that start late now and considering how CV gameplay is designed to want a lot of overall understanding of the game it's ridiculous to expect a new player to grasp this by t4, and it feels even worse for other t3-4 players who in a lot of hulls have practically, or literally no AA at all.

b)  BB's are not strong enough to push in.   Repair party and Damage Control Party need to be better for BB's, you need ways to be 'at least temporarily' MUCH more resiliant to HE spam and torpedo strikes. I'd suggest almost entirely removing Repair party cooldown so you can push more aggressively early and burn through the resources, but tone down either the charges or amount repaired per charge. It also needs to repair Torpedo damage better, citadel hits should be the main way to punch out a BB that's pushing. Regarding torpedo damage, either a consumable (BBs generally have fewer of these to worry about than other ships so they've got room on those huge hulls for another toy) or just tie an effect to DCP that gives you short duration high resistance to Torpedo damage. I'd like to see this have a warmup time like preparing a sector for AA because it would feel better to reward prediction by BB's rather than allow them to instantly deny a good surprise strike. 10s Warmup for 5-10s of halving torpedo damage on at least a 60s cd would feel great for opening up a push against a destroyer held position.

  • Cool 1
  • Boring 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,416
[META_]
Members
2,255 posts
7,485 battles

NO! They are the SOURCE of all evil. Or the ROOT of all evil.

  • Funny 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10,370
[SALVO]
Members
26,042 posts
28,722 battles
17 minutes ago, Spud_butt said:

NO! They are the SOURCE of all evil. Or the ROOT of all evil.

Correct, Spud.  The proper word is "root", not "route"!!!  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,644
[TWFT]
Members
1,442 posts
39,799 battles
3 hours ago, Crucis said:

Correct, Spud.  The proper word is "root", not "route"!!!  

I AM ROOT!

oh and screw CV's

Edited by Turbotush

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10,370
[SALVO]
Members
26,042 posts
28,722 battles
1 minute ago, Turbotush said:

I AM ROOT!

oh and screw CV's

Do you know BRANCH?  Or LEAF?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,644
[TWFT]
Members
1,442 posts
39,799 battles
6 hours ago, Crucis said:

Do you know BRANCH?  Or LEAF?

Branch is my cousin who lives in California and is always complaining about fires, Leaf is my moron brother that is in his 5th year of college trying to finish his degree in Silviculture.  They hate CV's too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10,370
[SALVO]
Members
26,042 posts
28,722 battles
1 hour ago, Turbotush said:

Branch is my cousin who lives in California and is always complaining about fires, Leaf is my moron brother that is in his 5th year of college trying to finish his degree in Silviculture.  They hate CV's too.

Does that make Trunk your dad?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,644
[TWFT]
Members
1,442 posts
39,799 battles
2 hours ago, Crucis said:

Does that make Trunk your dad?

Uncle Trunk died in a saw mill incident that the family never talks about and that Aunt Bark cant get over, she is an emotional wreck to this day.....she hates CV's also.

Edited by Turbotush

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10,370
[SALVO]
Members
26,042 posts
28,722 battles
4 hours ago, Turbotush said:

Uncle Trunk died in a saw mill incident that the family never talks about and that Aunt Bark cant get over, she is an emotional wreck to this day.....she hates CV's also.

Sounds like your family was really full of saps.    Betcha that the name of that carrier they hate so much is USS Chainsaw!  

  • Cool 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6
[DURPX]
[DURPX]
Members
15 posts
9,301 battles

I was thinking on CV gameplay. I have a suggestion.

 1. Make the player have to fly his planes back to a landing zone near his CV (4 km?). Then he can tell them to land automatically.

2. Let the CV player launch any squadron he likes, while still flying another. These planes orbit the CV (for a limited time) until the incoming planes are given a landing command. The player then takes the new squadron of choice out.

This will cut down the number of attacks, slightly increase plane loss due to aa, and maybe, just maybe, induce CV players to spot more. Teamplay is good.

Do you think this idea has merit?

edit: I don't think other changes would be necessary

Edited by TychoDog
a bit more
  • Meh 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
121
[A-D-F]
Members
478 posts
16,337 battles

CV is are not a path of evil. CVs are a path of nihilism... "some people just want to see the world burn" ~ Batman film probably... and ruin other players "fun".

Since the "CV Re-work", carriers no longer have to fight other carriers for control of the air, AA is irrelevant ( even a Hosho can "club" tier 6+ ships ), so it is a damage farming simulator where plane preservation / losses are not a factor.

In the end you either quit playing or become a nihilist like a CV player ~ me with 600+ battles in a Hosho. ( I am saving all the new players the suffering of playing higher tiers by making them quit early, you are welcome WG )

/ SARCASM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6
[DURPX]
[DURPX]
Members
15 posts
9,301 battles

Sammy, as a CV player (I'm not), do you think my little plan would be at all appealing to CV drivers? You know, compared to some other things I've heard (changing plane regen, decreasing plane health, nerfing various weapons, etc.).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
142 posts
3,635 battles

Here's an excerpt from another post of mine: 

First, allow anti-aircraft guns on surface ships to be healed over time, at a ratio proportional to aircraft HP regeneration (i.e. the rate at which planes are added to a CV's deck).

Second, remove the nerf on overlapping anti-aircraft bubbles. If the enemy is smart enough to group together to mitigate damage, then they should be rewarded. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,416
[META_]
Members
2,255 posts
7,485 battles

It's pretty obvious that without even trying very hard in this thread, that we've clearly proven the following tree points:

1) the power of puns.

2) everybody excepting the WG powers that be hates, loathes and resents CVs.

3) CVs are a direct threat to trees, which are not only huggable, but provide the planets biggest source of renewable oxygen, which is required for us to waste. (ed. note: you can't argue with logic when none is in use)

We need to be really, really smarter in our approach to have the damn, foul, and unclean CV eliminated from the game forever, except as targets. Let's take a look at what has worked in simular circumcisions! In the late '70's it became real apparent in WA State that clear cut logging was killing the trees at a rate that was challenging the decimation of forests in the Amazon! All protests failed until some tree hugger fell apon a spotted owl, which sadly crushed it.

Not being stupid, and wanting to atone for their murderous clumsiness, they started a (bowel) movement roughly along the lines of 'first we killed the saber tooth tigers, which were just trying to get along with us in our caves, then the Spotted Owls, next will be YOU, cupcake, because open niches, or Darwin, or something, and next thing you know, they (them) shut down the Logging Industry!! Also the fishing industry, but as the Spotted Owls do not use the estuaries nor stay in the open ocean for long, i never really connected with that. Butt eye digress.

The Logging Industry, which was not well known for having a lot of bright bulbs aboard, distinguished itself by proceeding with operations at night, which increased the accident rate substantially, and followed that up by nailing Spotted Owls to trees where the Tree Huggers and photo journalists could easily find them. Finally, a judge asked if the logging operations would be killing off more Spotted Owls than the loggers were hunting... nobody had an answer, so the deforestation was allowed to proceed. AFTER ten years. We needed the jobs, as WHOOPS was becoming a thing, which they are still paying for. Along with nuclear waste at Hanford. 

Yes, ALL THAT was caused directly by CVs in WoWs!! The horrors.

Anyway, what we need to do it have one of our fearless players accidentally step on their adorable, cute, no or low AA DDs, has to be the cutest in the game, and then proceed to carry out a 'Spotted Owl Tree Hugger' pogram so we can be rid of the vile, horrid menace to all our fun and deep purple stat enjoyment of the game.

spud

PS. I fail to see why anybody is trying to be constructive about this in this thread, much less try to help 'fix' anything. It was a direct question, and we are in the process of answering it clearly, and even helping to clarify the OPs point.

  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6
[DURPX]
[DURPX]
Members
15 posts
9,301 battles

AA guns healing is a great idea. Some % gets healed with the repair party makes the most sense, but that ain't so great for ships without one. Dam control instead, maybe.

And I actually like the principle of having CVs... just not so many. I have been in more than one battle with 3 cvs on a team of nine.

And sorry for not being funny. The route of all evil leads today to my dentist. ...for a root canal. I shirt you not.

Arrooooo and harrumph!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
121
[A-D-F]
Members
478 posts
16,337 battles
On 11/27/2020 at 1:31 PM, TychoDog said:

Sammy, as a CV player (I'm not), do you think my little plan would be at all appealing to CV drivers? You know, compared to some other things I've heard (changing plane regen, decreasing plane health, nerfing various weapons, etc.).

If i want to play world of warplanes or a "competitor game", I would.

The CVs are they way they are* due to a deliberate game design choice.... So is confirmation bias and denial regarding that "CVs are Balanced" on the part of the devs.

... and it would not change until people who are responsible for the "game balance" are forced to play 50 battles a week minimum at tier 6 ~ 8 in anything other than a CV, with their WG account.

Edited by Sammy_Small
*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6
[DURPX]
[DURPX]
Members
15 posts
9,301 battles
2 minutes ago, Sammy_Small said:

The CVs are they way they due to a deliberate game design choice...

I guess so. It just doesn't seem that way some of the time.

The Rush song, "The Trees" kinda fits here, to blend the thread together. "...and the trees are all kept equal/by hatchet, axe,/and saw."

All right; the beer is in the fridge, the codeine is on the counter, and I'm off to the bleepin' dentist. Cheers, and happy Friday.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,979
[V_KNG]
Beta Testers
13,192 posts
1 hour ago, TychoDog said:

I guess so. It just doesn't seem that way some of the time.

The Rush song, "The Trees" kinda fits here, to blend the thread together. "...and the trees are all kept equal/by hatchet, axe,/and saw."

All right; the beer is in the fridge, the codeine is on the counter, and I'm off to the bleepin' dentist. Cheers, and happy Friday.

FWIW, my thing on CVs goes a long ways back in game history. All I wanted, all I had hoped for was a change of strafing from air to air combat into an actual strafing run against a chosen ship. I wanted the strafing run to reduce (substantially) a target's AA for 30 to 60 seconds. A cv commander would strafe first, return to the carrier for his attack planes. He would then take the attack planes out to attack the previously strafed ship. 

Damage would be higher but fewer ships would be targeted if this were an option simply cause it would take more time to conduct missions. 

When they jumped the rails was when they started nerfing damage but compensating through other means. They have been so borked around by the devs that sometimes I play a carrier just to unleash the numbness of what they have done into the game. Does this make sense? 

As to your idea, sure, why not look at it. Can't hurt can it? Odds are though, it would turn out as something completely different nobody would enjoy. 

However what I'll say is this: The only limiting factor on damage totals for any ship type should be number of available targets per match. Who wants to play a ship type that can only make, oh say 90k, no matter how hard you play? Unicums sure wouldn't enjoy it nor would about anyone else me thinks. 

  • Meh 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,644
[TWFT]
Members
1,442 posts
39,799 battles
3 hours ago, Crucis said:

Sounds like your family was really full of saps.    Betcha that the name of that carrier they hate so much is USS Chainsaw!  

:Smile_veryhappy:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
13 posts
4,404 battles

Here's the issue with CV's. First there is no way that a squadron of CV planes should be able to get through the combined fire of 4 ships relatively unscathed. Secondly there is no way a CV should be able to engage in a gun duel at less than 2K with the Jean Bart and come out on top, and with more than 40% of their health. If CV's aren't broken that is. If CV's should be fun to play then it should be fun to play against them. Sadly this is not, and has not been the case for some time. Now I played Armored Warfare from it's Alpha to about a year after the game released, and I'm witnessing the same thing there that I'm witnessing in World of Warships. Let's make this fun to play but not fun to play against. Let's create a group/country of vessels that are deliberately overpowered and make them the only fun ones to play. Let's not fix what is apparently broken, and say it's working as intended. Tell me what the state of Armoured Warfare is today. Once you can tell me that you will know the direction this game is heading.

Edited by Beowulf1961

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
156
[KOBK]
Members
388 posts
4,904 battles

Im in the testament? cause im not gonna read that without gaining some premium ship and im tired of this nonsense discussion with people who rush B in a shima with aa on and the others who cant hide anymore behind the islands

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
650
[UN1]
Members
1,315 posts
4,146 battles
16 hours ago, Spud_butt said:

It's pretty obvious that without even trying very hard in this thread, that we've clearly proven the following tree points:

1) the power of puns.

2) everybody excepting the WG powers that be hates, loathes and resents CVs.

3) CVs are a direct threat to trees, which are not only huggable, but provide the planets biggest source of renewable oxygen, which is required for us to waste. (ed. note: you can't argue with logic when none is in use)

We need to be really, really smarter in our approach to have the damn, foul, and unclean CV eliminated from the game forever, except as targets. Let's take a look at what has worked in simular circumcisions! In the late '70's it became real apparent in WA State that clear cut logging was killing the trees at a rate that was challenging the decimation of forests in the Amazon! All protests failed until some tree hugger fell apon a spotted owl, which sadly crushed it.

Not being stupid, and wanting to atone for their murderous clumsiness, they started a (bowel) movement roughly along the lines of 'first we killed the saber tooth tigers, which were just trying to get along with us in our caves, then the Spotted Owls, next will be YOU, cupcake, because open niches, or Darwin, or something, and next thing you know, they (them) shut down the Logging Industry!! Also the fishing industry, but as the Spotted Owls do not use the estuaries nor stay in the open ocean for long, i never really connected with that. Butt eye digress.

The Logging Industry, which was not well known for having a lot of bright bulbs aboard, distinguished itself by proceeding with operations at night, which increased the accident rate substantially, and followed that up by nailing Spotted Owls to trees where the Tree Huggers and photo journalists could easily find them. Finally, a judge asked if the logging operations would be killing off more Spotted Owls than the loggers were hunting... nobody had an answer, so the deforestation was allowed to proceed. AFTER ten years. We needed the jobs, as WHOOPS was becoming a thing, which they are still paying for. Along with nuclear waste at Hanford. 

Yes, ALL THAT was caused directly by CVs in WoWs!! The horrors.

Anyway, what we need to do it have one of our fearless players accidentally step on their adorable, cute, no or low AA DDs, has to be the cutest in the game, and then proceed to carry out a 'Spotted Owl Tree Hugger' pogram so we can be rid of the vile, horrid menace to all our fun and deep purple stat enjoyment of the game.

spud

PS. I fail to see why anybody is trying to be constructive about this in this thread, much less try to help 'fix' anything. It was a direct question, and we are in the process of answering it clearly, and even helping to clarify the OPs point.

Trees are not the top oxygen makers on this planet.  Plankton is.  Your argument is, thus, flawed!  Long live carriers!  And, and... screw the trees!

Ra ra ra ra ra ra ra!!

  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×