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caspertoo

CV: the broken meta; how to fix it?

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So my main problem with high tier cv play is that it is totally dependent on the CV players skill.  They can avoid flak, they can circle around an AA heavy cruiser and hit it from the flank.  AA doesn't stop them.  Launched fighters don't stop them.  The only thing that restricts their ability to [edited] is the CV players mistakes.  There is no counter.  At this point I would say the vast majority of our player base thinks it is a broken meta.  

 

So how do we fix it?  Here are some of my ideas.

1. Limited ordinance.  One run and then back to the CV.  

2. CV planes can't avoid flak by just turning. If you are in the flak circle you get destroyed fast.  

3.  If a launched fighter is in the area, you can't attack in the fighters protection circle.  

4.  Seriously buff AA.  

5. Dramatically limit the number of planes available to CV's.  

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6) None of the above. WoWs may be due for a comprehensive meta rework, but it neither begins nor ends with CVs.

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My suggestion has been that Carriers have to fight Carriers for air superiority BEFORE they can attack ships....   Look, the game is ship warfare and if carriers had to gain air superiority against another Carrier, isn't that the point???

Carriers hunted carriers IRL.....  Except here, where AA doesn't involve any skill and planes have the ability to aim at you???  Isn't that odd? 

Carriers are strategic weapons systems and all of the other ships aren't....  There can't be a "balance" because you have two historical "gates" to get through:  1) pre-1944 where planes simply killed AA inferior ships (Bismark, HMS Repulse and Prince of Wales.....); or, 2) post 1944 where there were flak ship, AA picket ships with Radar and all sorts of radar controlled AA weapons and proximity ammunition's.....  Notice, the extreme separation in the timeline:  one day crazy strong and two years later, couldn't get near a ship.................and that, forced the IJN/Germans into using "guided bombs" and they were working on "homing missiles"......   Planes after 44 were being destroyed at over 85% in engagements in the Pacific........the era of the Carrier lasted what, 20 years......  Now, it's all over-the-horizon smart weapons.  No balance.   Them with the most wins now.....

 

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Here is the brutal lie to any argument for AA effectiveness with the current flak biased AA mechanics:

MvR flies OVER  a Halland and Des in order to strike a Thunderer. Then he flies between a Montana and a Des to turn in and rocket the Des broadside. 

Are they shooting down planes? Sure. Is the CV deterred? He strikes targets without concern for their AA rating or proximity to support. At the end of the game, he's still fielding full or near-full squads. 

The salt level is mountainous and hilarious. 

No wonder we have CV super unicums in these threads (which unfailingly get unfailingly locked) waving their arms decrying the utter brokenness. 

 

Edited by Pugilistic
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22 minutes ago, caspertoo said:

So my main problem with high tier cv play is that it is totally dependent on the CV players skill.  They can avoid flak, they can circle around an AA heavy cruiser and hit it from the flank.  AA doesn't stop them.  Launched fighters don't stop them.  The only thing that restricts their ability to [edited] is the CV players mistakes.  There is no counter.  At this point I would say the vast majority of our player base thinks it is a broken meta.  

My suggestion is to make CVs *EXTREMELY FRAGILE*.  The moment they are spotted, they should last as long as a DD under fire.  Instead of CVs detonating other ships, the CV should be at risk of detonation (instead of being flipping immune).  WGing have made CVs ultra durable which was just absurd.  Even if your a DD fighting a CV at 6km, you'll still get crushed more often than not.  /facepalm

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This doesnt seem like how to balance CVs. This is more like how to make CVs unplayable ......

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-AA has to be more effective and even across all ships. All the ships should have equal base AA values. No more avoiding certain ships and going after a few, causing even more toxic and unfair gameplay.

- CVs should have drastically fewer hit points. Think SPGs to any other class ratio in WoT. This way, CVs caught by surprise get sunk, instead of killing anyone that finds them and run away happily because of their mobility and insane health pool. Also promotes CV vs CV play, as this class can't even counter itself currently.

- Limited number of planes. Enough said.

 

- Increased dectability. A full stealth build gets it to 20km detectability, instead of being stealthier than some cruisers, as they are currently.

 

 

Edited by WarStore
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Put only 50 shells for any ships and only 10 torpedos in any ship with torpedo and im ok with your absurd way to nerf the cv since you cant play with him and against them.

 

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While I do agree that the CV meta needs to seriously be looked at, with the recent changes with the CVs and additions to the lines I would not personally hold my breath for any real change.

Look at the Texas for example not long ago that was a "No Fly Zone" ship, but now? meh yeah you'll have a few planes go down but it doesn't constitute flying around the Texas to get to your target or deter you away from attacking the Texas like it used to. 
At higher tiers like I mentioned in a different post, some of the American ships have been neutered and some German ships as well like the Hindenburg used to have fantastic AA at 6km for a cruiser.... now it has been butchered to 5.2km and you are lucky to take down a few planes but inevitably the CV is going to nail you and odds are going to do some decent damage to you, mean while also at tier X the Petro gets OVER 6km AA...

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Just now, WarStore said:

- CVs should have drastically fewer hit points. Think SPGs to any other class ratio in WoT. This way, CVs caught by surprise get sunk, instead of killing anyone that finds them and run away happily because of their mobility and insane health pool.

Yes that is a good example.  Very common in World of Tanks, a single light tank slipping through the lines can systematically kill all 3 SPGs on the enemy team.  If a DD tried to do that even to 2 CVs, that DD would get annihilated, no question.  In fact, just a light tank spotting an SPG would be enough to get it destroyed within seconds.

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34 minutes ago, caspertoo said:

So my main problem with high tier cv play is that it is totally dependent on the CV players skill.  They can avoid flak, they can circle around an AA heavy cruiser and hit it from the flank.  AA doesn't stop them.  Launched fighters don't stop them.  The only thing that restricts their ability to [edited] is the CV players mistakes.  There is no counter.  At this point I would say the vast majority of our player base thinks it is a broken meta.  

 

So how do we fix it?  Here are some of my ideas.

1. Limited ordinance.  One run and then back to the CV.  

2. CV planes can't avoid flak by just turning. If you are in the flak circle you get destroyed fast.  

3.  If a launched fighter is in the area, you can't attack in the fighters protection circle.  

4.  Seriously buff AA.  

5. Dramatically limit the number of planes available to CV's.  

We .....you got a mouse in your pocket...lololol....its WGs game . 

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8 minutes ago, Koogus said:

This doesnt seem like how to balance CVs. This is more like how to make CVs unplayable ......

I'm not saying all of the points need to be implemented, i'm saying these are some of the possible ideas.  Yes if all the points are done, it would pretty much be a nuke nerf but something needs to be changed.  

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22 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

My suggestion has been that Carriers have to fight Carriers for air superiority BEFORE they can attack ships....   Look, the game is ship warfare and if carriers had to gain air superiority against another Carrier, isn't that the point???

Carriers hunted carriers IRL.....  Except here, where AA doesn't involve any skill and planes have the ability to aim at you???  Isn't that odd?

Stop making sense.

Carriers are intentionally designed to be easy-mode troll damage in order to:

  1. Speed up match turnover.
  2. Provide a low-risk, low skill floor ship  type for a certain target demographic.
  3. Generate profits from sales based on (2) above.

It's as simple as that. Quality of general gameplay or ship type balance have absolutely nothing to do with their decisions, and that isn't going to change until the profits dry up.

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3 minutes ago, Krasnaya_Slava said:

It's as simple as that. Quality of general gameplay or ship type balance have absolutely nothing to do with their decisions, and that isn't going to change until the profits dry up.

But why not have good game balance?

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1 minute ago, Sventex said:

But why not have good game balance?

Don't ask me, ask Lesta. They make the decisions.

Of course, when asked the boilerplate reply is always, "We think game is balanced just fine."

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3 minutes ago, Krasnaya_Slava said:

Don't ask me, ask Lesta. They make the decisions.

Of course, when asked the boilerplate reply is always, "We think game is balanced just fine."

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22 minutes ago, Sventex said:

My suggestion is to make CVs *EXTREMELY FRAGILE*.  The moment they are spotted, they should last as long as a DD under fire.  Instead of CVs detonating other ships, the CV should be at risk of detonation (instead of being flipping immune).  WGing have made CVs ultra durable which was just absurd.  Even if your a DD fighting a CV at 6km, you'll still get crushed more often than not.  /facepalm

CV's can be citadeled which DD's cannot. CV's for some reason are effectively fire proof so if you use AP for 6"/150+mm you will take them down quickly.

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1 minute ago, BrushWolf said:

CV's can be citadeled which DD's cannot. CV's for some reason are effectively fire proof so if you use AP for 6"/150+mm you will take them down quickly.

I forget which DDs have 6" guns, but I don't think it's many of them.

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The bigger problem I have isn't pathetic CV damage (on average they get maybe one or two runs from a squadron every minute), what I have is an issue with HE spam....

I can't shoot it down, I can't stop the fires caused by them - even with EVERY SINGLE fire protection item available in game (captain skills, flags, etc.) The rate of attack is insane - dozens of rounds every 4-5 seconds. The ONLY solution is for me not to participate in a battle at all by hiding behind islands.

Come WG, fix the REAL problem... HE spam.

Edited by capncrunch21
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2 minutes ago, Sventex said:

I forget which DDs have 6" guns, but I don't think it's many of them.

 

Only German DD namely Z23 the T6 one, the premium T7 and I think that's it

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CV's are the most nerfed ship type in the game.
Entire ships were removed from the game.  All the odd-tiered CVs.  Not just removed from available to purchase, REMOVED FROM THE GAME AND CANNOT BE PLAYED.

All to appease the people who spend more effort complaining than they spend effort on working to improve their game play.

I'm still missing my Zuiho.

Until BB's, Cruisers and DD's go through the same level of "re-work" and "nerfs" that CV's have gone through, they've go no leg to stand on as far as I am concerned.

And frankly, I wouldn't wish a "rework" on any ship type.

I simply wish people would improve their game and their ability to face challenges with enthusiasm & optimism.

I play all available ship types.

 

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5 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

CV's can be citadeled which DD's cannot. CV's for some reason are effectively fire proof so if you use AP for 6"/150+mm you will take them down quickly.

Provided the few DDs that have 150mm catch the CV broadside and standing still, yes, they can take down a CV in two or three minutes

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Just now, capncrunch21 said:

The bigger problem I have isn't pathetic CV damage (on average they get maybe one or two runs from a squadron every minute), what I have is an issue with HE spam....

I can't shoot it down, I can't stop the fires caused by them - even with EVERY SINGLE fire protection item available in game (captain skills, flags, etc.) The ONLY solution is for me not to participate in a battle at all by hiding behind islands.

Come WG, fix the REAL problem... HE spam.

Wouldn't you have a problem with AP spam and the unhealable damage it causes?

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5 minutes ago, Sventex said:

I forget which DDs have 6" guns, but I don't think it's many of them.

Obviously for ships that do not have 6" plus HE is still better. You would have to experiment with the French 5.5" to see which performs better, HE or AP.

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1 minute ago, Sventex said:

Wouldn't you have a problem with AP spam and the unhealable damage it causes?

Nope - because I can angle against a lot of it. Like most ships can dodge much of a CV's attacks if they are paying attention.

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